The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[Feicarsinn]

You know, the longer this all goes on the more I'm of the opinion that we're simply papering over the cracks with regards European rugby, whatever the outcome of the current crisis. The Welsh sides could go into the Premiership and it might work out for them, but even if it does it leave the other Pro 12 sides in a lurch and their own union in a substantially weakened position. They could stay in the Pro 12 and try to maintain the status quo, but the player drain to France and England seems unstoppable for Welsh rugby (and possibly the Irish game going forward) as the Celtic nations simply cannot provide enough of an audience to get a decent TV package. The Pro 12 has been dominated by Welsh and Irish sides since its inception and it seems like only the Irish sides really give a damn at this point (I know there are exceptions, but let's talk general terms here.) That's a tiny market compared to what the Top 14 can command. As the financial gap widens, the Pro 12 product will get weaker making it even less appealing in something of a downward spiral. For me this is inescapable at this point.

There's a hard truth that I believe all parties are missing somewhat; European rugby is fundamentally broken. The Celtic and Italian sides can't bring in the money to continue to compete, the top English sides are being hamstrung by a salary cap in place to keep the middling to weaker sides from disappearing into financial oblivion and in France a lot of historic sides are beginning to suffer due to the sheer financial clout of the likes of Toulon. The propsed European Champions Cup wouldn't have fixed these issues, nor will the continuing ERC competition or the Welsh joining the Premiership.

To me it seems that the only real way for European club rugby to move forward is in the form of a pan European league competition. A 24 team competition with two conferences run in a similar fashion to the NFL would allow for domestic rivalries to be kept in place as well as a fairer distribution of wealth. Domestic leagues in England and France could be kept in place in a truncated form while meaningful competition would still exist for the Celtic sides incapable of supporting pro leagues themselves. There'd also be room for expansion into areas like Spain, Germany and Eastern Europe as the league grows in strength, aiding the development of rugby in the tier 2 nations.

I know there are a lot of flaws and there'll be a hell of a lot of resistance, but to me it seems like this is what we're inevitably heading toward and the sooner the unions and leagues cop on and swallow their pride the better for all involved.

 

[profitius]

What I don't get about Wales is one of their top excuses for wanting to join the premiership is an increase in fans. Its true that they'll get much more away fans but the elephant in the room is their own fans or lack of. And they can't say its the pro 12's fault because the numbers for HEC games are not much better.


From an outside perspective I think the "regions" joining the premiership and the WRU setting up new proper regions is the best course of action. Everyone can see that the current "regions" are not regions but glorified clubs. Naturally enough that leaves more of the country's rugby fans feeling left out.

 

[Feicarsinn]

What I don't get about Wales is one of their top excuses for wanting to join the premiership is an increase in fans. Its true that they'll get much more away fans but the elephant in the room is their own fans or lack of. And they can't say its the pro 12's fault because the numbers for HEC games are not much better.


From an outside perspective I think the "regions" joining the premiership and the WRU setting up new proper regions is the best course of action. Everyone can see that the current "regions" are not regions but glorified clubs. Naturally enough that leaves more of the country's rugby fans feeling left out.

The theory seems to be that in the Premiership the games will be more meaningful what with relegation and such, as well as a smattering of cross boarder rivalries and the 'old enemy' factor. I'm not sure how valid the first point is and I'm certain the novelty of playing English sides would wear off pretty quickly, but who can say if it wont see a boost if fan base? My line of thinking is that if they are to enter they'll see a large enough increase in support in the short term, then it's up to the regions to try and hold onto them. Based on their efforts in the past I wouldn't be too confident in them succeeding though.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

To me it seems that the only real way for European club rugby to move forward is in the form of a pan European league competition. A 24 team competition with two conferences run in a similar fashion to the NFL would allow for domestic rivalries to be kept in place as well as a fairer distribution of wealth. Domestic leagues in England and France could be kept in place in a truncated form while meaningful competition would still exist for the Celtic sides incapable of supporting pro leagues themselves. There'd also be room for expansion into areas like Spain, Germany and Eastern Europe as the league grows in strength, aiding the development of rugby in the tier 2 nations.

+1000000000

It'll be tough to implement but it's the best long term answer to supporting the sport outside of France and England and also expanding to new markets. The easiest way of doing this is to have a €urozone conference (14 French, 4 Irish and 2 Italian) and a British conference (14 English, 4 Welsh, 2 Scottish). PRL and RRW get their Anglo-Welsh league on the basis that Scottish regions are brought in. England get 2 additional sides to offset the ending of relegation. France dominate the €urozone conference with the Bouclier de Brennus as the prize keeping their traditions intact. Irish sides are already flying to away games in Scotland and Wales so that makes no major difference and French sides are bigger draws than teams from those nations. Italy join up with a nation with whom they have more cultural attachment and there's less travel involved. It would be bloated at 40 teams but it's the only solution which will be acceptable to all. Peace breaks out. We all win.

The usually insufferable Stephen Jones is behind a Euro League of sorts which while flawed is a good compromise:
http://www.rugbyworld.com/featured/europe-we-have-the-answer/

I think 26 games including playoffs is the maximum length the competition should run to.

 

[Maverick1987]

+1000000000

It'll be tough to implement but it's the best long term answer to supporting the sport outside of France and England and also expanding to new markets. The easiest way of doing this is to have a â'¬urozone conference (14 French, 4 Irish and 2 Italian) and a British conference (14 English, 4 Welsh, 2 Scottish). PRL and RRW get their Anglo-Welsh league on the basis that Scottish regions are brought in. England get 2 additional sides to offset the ending of relegation. France dominate the â'¬urozone conference with the Bouclier de Brennus as the prize keeping their traditions intact. Irish sides are already flying to away games in Scotland and Wales so that makes no major difference and French sides are bigger draws than teams from those nations. Italy join up with a nation with whom they have more cultural attachment and there's less travel involved. It would be bloated at 40 teams but it's the only solution which will be acceptable to all. Peace breaks out. We all win.

The usually insufferable Stephen Jones is behind a Euro League of sorts which while flawed is a good compromise:
http://www.rugbyworld.com/featured/europe-we-have-the-answer/

I think 26 games including playoffs is the maximum length the competition should run to.

I don't want this English clubs like Exeter who have worked hard to come up the ranks will be gone then with no promotion relegation . I'm happy for English league to stay as it is and all parties to stop messing around and sort this bloody HC out !

 

[Feicarsinn]

I don't want this English clubs like Exeter who have worked hard to come up the ranks will be gone then with no promotion relegation . I'm happy for English league to stay as it is and all parties to stop messing around and sort this bloody HC out !

No reason imo that the lowest English side couldn't go down into the championship and a new side come up to take their conference place. While I reckon it'd mean that the weakest English side in the competition would never be truly competitive, but if it help sell the idea to the English sides then so be it.

You've got to realise that the Heineken Cup as it currently exists can't be sorted out. The Welsh, Irish, Scotland and Italians cannot compete with the financial clout of the French clubs. This means that the Celtic sides will progressively weaken as the years go by making the competition more and more lopsided. A major change has to come.

 

[dullonien]

Fully agree with Feic and Snoop. An European league, replacing the Pro12, English Prem, Top14, and HC would be the best solution all round.

I know I suggested a different proposal for Welsh rugby, but that was a proposed solution without trying to meddle with the rest of European rugby too much. Looking at Europe as a whole, a pan European league benefits everyone imo, especially looking ahead to the expansion of the game in Europe as Snoop has highlighted already.

I highly doubt we'll see it happen though.

 

[j'nuh]

An extended European tournament to replace domestic rugby will not work for England or Wales. It will also stop working for Ireland within a few years, although this route may be preferable to the one where the Welsh depart from the Pro12 and leave the Irish in the mud. For different reasons, I doubt the French would want it. For different reasons yet again, the Italians and Scottish would be doomed by it. It may keep them financially afloat, but I'm not confident it will grow the game in these countries. I'll flesh this out as much as I can when I have the time, but I don't think a European tournament is feasible or desirable for many of the nations (although it may be the only option for a few of the nations)...

 

[Peat]

What about it wouldn't work for England? No promotion/relegation? We've already apparently shown we're willing to compromise on that. A lack of control for PRL clubs? They're already willing to compromise on that, it wasn't them objecting to 6N running the HEC. Lack of fan interest? That sounds like balls to me.

The only thing that wouldn't work about it for me is that you lose the wonder of HEC as a thing apart. Which would be a shame. Barring a complete redrawing of rugby competition in this hemisphere, the current model suits me best of all. But I see no reason why a Euroleague wouldn't work - and frankly, from the English point of view I think it a great deal more workable than watering down our supposed competitive edge to admit a bunch of horrific underachievers who will be completely crippled by what is set to be the bitterest fight between union and club to date. At least in a Euroleague we'd also be playing a number of other highly competent sides.

 

[Draggs]

I just don't feel an 'all in one' league would be practical. What about lower league teams? Too much travelling would be involved. If we could sort out the domestic leagues and get HEC terms that work, that would be the ideal solution. Also changing the calender a bit, HEC rounds right before/after internationals isn't helpful.

Wales in the Prem is my preference for these domestic struggles. I'll be perfectly honest when I say that this whole 'Celtic togetherness' doesn't do anything for me. Wales and England together makes more geographic sense than Wales going to Italy/Scotland/Ireland. Italy in the T14 would be awful. I'd be surprised if either team could even get close to being promoted in the ProD2.

 

[profitius]

A euroleague would work but it would have to be done carefully. A lot of money would have to be invested in new teams for a number of years before the investment bears fruit. Once teams become self sufficient then it would have a snowball like effect with more money being generated to invest in more teams. Thats the theory anyway!


Spain and Belgium look like the best places to start IMO. Although a minority sport, rugby isn't new to Spain and Belgium are doing well at promoting the game. Germany, Holland, Switzerland also. One thing is for sure, if a western European country becomes as good as Georgia, Russia or Romania is now, the 6 nation teams will do everything in their power to help them along. The problem with Romania, Russia and Georgia is location, climate, money etc.


The only thing I would disagree with feicarsinn about is the 2 conferences. I would have league divisions with 1 team promoted and relegated per season. Let the strongest play each other, no point having weak teams playing the best and getting thrashed. Down the line when the gap closes then you can introduce conferences.


I don't see this happening though. They're all fighting over money so I don't see how smaller teams can get the funding. The IRB's strategy is to pump money into the USA and Russia and other big economies to try and get their people interested in rugby. I would prefer to see the IRB concentrate on small countries especially countries with well run unions like Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Germany etc.

 

[LittleGuy]

I just don't feel an 'all in one' league would be practical. What about lower league teams? Too much travelling would be involved. If we could sort out the domestic leagues and get HEC terms that work, that would be the ideal solution. Also changing the calender a bit, HEC rounds right before/after internationals isn't helpful.

Wales in the Prem is my preference for these domestic struggles. I'll be perfectly honest when I say that this whole 'Celtic togetherness' doesn't do anything for me. Wales and England together makes more geographic sense than Wales going to Italy/Scotland/Ireland. Italy in the T14 would be awful. I'd be surprised if either team could even get close to being promoted in the ProD2.

At this point I would agree, though the geography and cultural links with the French leage would be much greater. If their was a dedicated effort by the Treviso family who do have some decent pockets and if they brought in some other investors alongside and brought in a ton of Italian/French talent they could probably field a low/mid table side in the Top 14 at some point. Zebre would be fairly low table in D2.

The Italian situation would have to change I feel for them to fit in the Top 14, Zebre would have to be replaced by a club with a sugar daddy owner or one the National union actually runs possibly out of Rome(or another major city), while some sort of Benneton Treviso(esque) side runs in the heartland of the game in the Po Valley.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Mea Culpa - I thought Midlands played separately as West and East? I know you can find references to them as separate entities.

You're confusing County rugby with Divisional rugby - the four divisions were North, Midlands, London and South-West. AFAIK they came about as a selection tool for the England team when the decline of the County Championship meant it no longer served this purpose.

The last time I recall the divisions playing was against the touring New Zealand side in 1993. I was at the South West match played in Redruth where Jamie Joseph went line dancing on Phil DeGlanville's face (before going on to do the same to Kyran Bracken's ankle at Twickenham) and Andy Robinson set back the cause of small flankers by a few years.

 

[St George]

I cannot believe that some posters actually think that any league that has relegation for one group and not the other would work. The current crises has come about due to a perceived belief that the system was unfair, so how the hell would relegation for English but not Welsh (or Scots) be acceptable? Totally absurd.

I totally despair at the amateurish way people wish to run rugby domestically.

IMO the proposal to have the major Eurocomp run by the respected 6N, with the involvement of Fira, would bring about a rise in professionalism within the non-6N group. Hopefully, decades down the line, the quality of non-6N rugby would improve to a level whereby any thoughts of a true Euro league could be established in the same way as football.

The proposed situation where the English are not involved, will not be good for either sides. But the English have the capacity to absorb some temporary hardship, whereas i doubt the Welsh, Scots and Italians could. For the Welsh in particular, this episode has been disastrous. I find it hard to believe as some suggest,that the WRU have taken their stance so as to facilitate the end of the regions so they can start again. Its a massive gamble with rugby in Wales which could have a huge impact on rugby as a whole across Europe. The viability of any Rabo league without a quality Welsh contingent could see that league destroyed also.

I fear for rugby now for the first time, and i see the only light being an agreement along the lines as suggested by the RFU. And if France are the only Union objecting unless Fira are involved, then surely their involvement in a junior capacity can be acheived.

Happy New Year to all and wishing a comprise is sorted soon.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

The only thing I would disagree with feicarsinn about is the 2 conferences. I would have league divisions with 1 team promoted and relegated per season. Let the strongest play each other, no point having weak teams playing the best and getting thrashed. Down the line when the gap closes then you can introduce conferences.

I agree with virtually all your post except this bit. Going into it in more detail, for clubs to agree on a Euroleague, it needs total representation from the three participating leagues - Pro 12, Top 14 and Premiership. This could be divided as a top tier of 14, a 2nd tier of 12 and 3rd tier 12 also. How much spectator interest do you think an Italian or Scottish team playing in division 3 would get? I believe interest outside the top tier would be minimal and soon we'd have a European elite of 14 teams with nothing else of note below it. That would be bad for European rugby in the long run.

I think 40 teams would be bloated but to get it off the ground it may be the more achievable option. If it preserves present rivalries, leads to a less clustered playing calendar (which is badly needed), top teams taking the field all the time (instead of rotation), more money (the key to making it work) and harmony among the member nations, it's the way forward.

Now is an opportune time to do it. Italy's three year trial participation in the Pro 12 is up. Wales want out. The Top 14 and Pro 12 are looking for new TV deals ahead of next season. BT Sport want a European competition for big money and are already prepared to change the Premiership to an Anglo-Welsh league. The Unions and clubs are all trying to shape the future of European rugby. This is a quick fix solution which will create a financial behemoth and preserve rugby all in the 6 Nations at club level.

Under my proposal:
1. The Anglo-Welsh league exists, as PRL and RRW want, as long as Scotland are included. It's a fair compromise. WRU, RFU, SRU, PRL, RRW are happy.

2.The Top 14 is expanded and strengthened. Irish provinces have developed a strong rivalry with teams like Toulouse and ASM which will boost the Top 14's TV deal. They add in Italy's 70m inhabitants to their market for bonus money. IRFU, FFR, LNR, FIR are happy.

3. All that needs to be sorted out is governance which can be achieved with a small bit of wrangling (less so than the current mess since everyone will know where they stand) and division of money. The latter seemed to have been accepted by all parties in the RCC/ERC discussions.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Under my proposal:
1. The Anglo-Welsh league exists, as PRL and RRW want, as long as Scotland are included. It's a fair compromise. WRU, RFU, SRU, PRL, RRW are happy.

2.The Top 14 is expanded and strengthened. Irish provinces have developed a strong rivalry with teams like Toulouse and ASM which will boost the Top 14's TV deal. They add in Italy's 70m inhabitants to their market for bonus money. IRFU, FFR, LNR, FIR are happy.

3. All that needs to be sorted out is governance which can be achieved with a small bit of wrangling (less so than the current mess since everyone will know where they stand) and division of money. The latter seemed to have been accepted by all parties in the RCC/ERC discussions.

Why, when the 12 teams in the Premiership do not represent all the "regions" of England, should we be looking to include other Union's teams?
This will be terrible for English rugby. I'd much rather have the Pirates and Leeds/Rotherham involved than any Welsh or Scottish sides.

What domestic competition will the Irish regions play in? Are you suggesting they play in the TOP14?

 

[dullonien]

Why, when the 12 teams in the Premiership do not represent all the "regions" of England, should we be looking to include other Union's teams?
This will be terrible for English rugby. I'd much rather have the Pirates and Leeds/Rotherham involved than any Welsh or Scottish sides.

What domestic competition will the Irish regions play in? Are you suggesting they play in the TOP14?

Snoop is proposing an European league that replaces all the other tournaments. So the Welsh regions and Scottish teams won't be joining the Premiership, but a conference of the European league will include England, Wales and Scotland. Similarly, the Irish provinces won't be joining the Top14, but a second conference will include France, Italy and Ireland.

In a conference system, each team play the other sides in their conference home and away, and they also play each team in the other conference once (rotating home and away each season).

The potential of such a system is huge imo. The PRL are already prepared to allow Welsh teams to join the Prem, so what's a couple of Scottish teams on top? At the same time they will still get to play against French sides, something they will be missing out on as it stands for the foreseeable future. Whilst the Top14 is hugely marketable at the moment, adding the strong Irish provinces would do nothing but strengthen it, and there are strong links between France and Italy in rugby terms, especially due to the amount of Italian players which have/currently play their trade in France.

In the form of playoffs at the end of the season, we'd also retain the knock-out portion of the HC.

It would simplify the calendar hugely also, getting rid of the crazy jumping around which happens at the moment. Better international release windows could be built into the calendar, so there aren't weekends where teams are stripped of their international players.

I'm all for it, especially now that the HC has collapsed.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't beleive you can dissolve the English or French domestic competitions.... particularly the TOP14.
They would rather not play any European rugby at all than give up their own league.

The potential of such a system is huge imo. The PRL are already prepared to allow Welsh teams to join the Prem, so what's a couple of Scottish teams on top?

As I've said - there isn't enough room in the Premiership for all the English teams, let alone the Welsh and Scottish.
Unless you have some sort of unified British promotion/relegation system, but that's impossible because the levels below the premiership/PRO12 are union run so you cannot, for example, have Welsh teams in the English Championship.

Now... a NH version of SR might work - Club rugby as a third tier, regional or franchise rugby as the second and international as the first.
You could probably work that in the UK - where everyone but England already has this.... but France would almost certainly refuse (barring one or two pairs of teams).

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

As Dullonien says, it'd be a single European competition replacing the Pro 12, Top 14, Premiership, Heineken Cup, Amlin Cup, B&I Cup and LV= Cup.

Each conference can choose it's own TV deal for home games giving PRL and LNR the autonomy they want. Basically we have a club lead tournament with nobody left behind. The RCC and Anglo-Welsh League options disenfranchise too many teams for the benefit of the few.

I believe everyone wins but a few compromises have to be reached. Going nation by nation:
England, or more accurately PRL get their Anglo-Welsh League via the British conference and also get autonomy to choose their TV deal. The compromise they make is they must include the 2 Scottish regions.
Wales, or RRW, get the same deal as above with less travel involved than they face in the Pro 12.
Scotland don't get left behind and have less travel than before but the power of the SRU is diluted a little.
France, or LNR, get a European competition they desire and strengthen the Top 14 by adding the Irish and Italian markets to their conference. More money for all.
Italy join up with a conference with which they have closer ties than their Pro 12 arrangement. They benefit most from this.
Ireland don't get left behind and improve their TV deal through the French/Italian linkup but their travel increases.

The trickiest part could be agreeing who runs the league. I believe a compromise is that the 6 Nations take control for 5 or 6 years to give the new league the stability it needs. Then their influence is gradually diluted to increase the influence of FIRA-AER and examine expansion/relocation of teams to Brussels, Barcelona, San Sebastian, Geneva, Bucharest, Russia, Georgia, Germany or elsewhere.

It's a radical proposal but we need radical thinking to sort out the mess that is European club rugby.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I don't beleive you can dissolve the English or French domestic competitions.... particularly the TOP14.
They would rather not play any European rugby at all than give up their own league.

The English are doing that already by proposing an Anglo-Welsh League! There's still an English/British champion under the guise of conference winner. Not much changes. The English league system is only in place for 25 years so it's not as if they're adapting something that's been in place for over a century.

France regularly changes the format of the Top 14 - since the game has gone professional they've moved from 2 pools of 8 teams to a 16 teams league playing twice, down to 14 teams playing twice and increasing the size of the playoffs. Their clubs aren't averse to change as seen most recently by the Bayonne/Biarritz merger talks. They worship the almighty Dollar/€uro. They'll do whatever brings in more revenue. By keeping the Bouclier as the conference prize, their traditions are appeased.