Toulon will let Hayman go to World Cup

[Teh Mite]

How can you not understand this, its not possible for the All Blacks to pick overseas players.

By order of whom? Who enforces this idealogical paradise? You'll find they can do what they please. So far they have chosen not to pick overseas players.

The sport would crumble in on itself in this country.

Rugby going down the shitter everywhere anyway.

 

[ranger]

By order of whom? Who enforces this idealogical paradise? You'll find they can do what they please. So far they have chosen not to pick overseas players.

By order of the allmighty economy, its not an idealogical choice at all! A country of 4 million people simply can't compete on an open market.

Look at the situation as it is now, the ANZC teams are all paying their players a pittance, and they are still losing money. The teams are in debt, they can't pay their players any more than they do now. The main reason these players don't go off overseas and get paid more is because they have to stay if they want to play for the All Blacks one day. Once that restriction is taken out, European teams could just walk in and take their pick of pretty much anyone. I know for a fact that 5 members of the 2009 U20 world cup winning side are only being paid about 8000 british pounds a yeark, they would be as good as gone in minutes.

Even now look at NZs first five situation. Every year we are having to promote 20 year olds into the starting Super rugby sides because there is just noone else. Jimmy Gopperth was all but ruined because he was thrown into the fire too early, same with Bowden and probably Cruden.
Dan Carter had Mehrtens and Mauger to play under and learn from, This year Cruden has 23 year old journeyman Daniel Kirkpatrick and 18 year old Beuden Barrett as his backups, thats ****. Imagine how much worse that situation would get once every teir one and two player that the NZRU can't afford runs away to france.

Its not an ideological situation. The NZRU would do it if they could.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

From what I have read (Telegraph Article), Carter took a 6 Month Sabbatical from his NZ Contract, so he would have had to sign for Perpignan and a gentleman's agreement was put in place between the NZRU and Perpignan. He would have had to sign a contract to play otherwise he would never have been allowed to play for Perpignan, also bare in mind that insurance as well, again he would have had to sign a contract.

Not denying he took a sabbatical but reading into it, it was a sabbatical from his NZRU contract.

 

[Charles]

We are also seeing a lot of mid-ranked players making their way back to NZ, disillusioned with life in Europe. If you aren't one of the top players in NZ, you will have a difficult time making your way in European Rugby

If you aren't one of the top players in NZ, you won't be one of the top players in Europe. Did these players you speak about ever watched a NH game before coming? If you want easy rugby, Japan's for you.

Only the kind of people who think the NH is a retirement home for SH rugby players would be surprised by this. The truth is that it is extremely competitive and if you're only here to enjoy the sun (in France) and chill out, you won't be there next season.

 

[Gavin]

I bet the NZRU aren't offering "too good to refuse" salarys like Sarries just gave that Wallabies hooker. You'll see more and more of that from the big French outfits from now on in. I vet within the next few years we'll see the first £1,000,000/year player in the French league. And he'll likely be an All Black.

Wouldn't be too sure on that, I read that Matt Giteau is currently earnly more money with the ARU than what he has been offered by French clubs. So I expect the same with the NZRU. Back to the topic why would the NZRU want to pay for a player to come back and play in the World Cup, then leave to Europe? Hayman might be a great prop, but he is not definately sure of starting for the All Blacks, they have some good experienced props and some young up-and-comers.

 

[nickdnz]

If you aren't one of the top players in NZ, you won't be one of the top players in Europe. Did these players you speak about ever watched a NH game before coming? If you want easy rugby, Japan's for you.

Only the kind of people who think the NH is a retirement home for SH rugby players would be surprised by this. The truth is that it is extremely competitive and if you're only here to enjoy the sun (in France) and chill out, you won't be there next season.

On thing that I have noticed is quite strange, and it's not a quality thing, is that some players who are considered average in the SH, do very well in the NH like Scott Hamilton, Bruce Riehana and Isaac Boss. I don't think it has as much to do with how good they are, but how their style suits some NH teams. There have been plenty of amazing SH players who never found their feet in Europe like Christian Cullen or Rico Gear.

 

[ranger]

If you aren't one of the top players in NZ, you won't be one of the top players in Europe. Did these players you speak about ever watched a NH game before coming? If you want easy rugby, Japan's for you.

Only the kind of people who think the NH is a retirement home for SH rugby players would be surprised by this. The truth is that it is extremely competitive and if you're only here to enjoy the sun (in France) and chill out, you won't be there next season.

The problem isn't really the players leaving to walk into to Europe and instantly become the best guys in the league. Its the young players that take off without reaching their potential in NZ (Regan King, Joe Maddock, Lefemi Mafi, James Aldrige, Ryan Nicholls etc..) and the older players that we need to stick around and teach the newer generation that go off to retire in the NH instead (Paul ***o, Clark Dermody, Bruce Reihana, Xavier Rush etc..)

Those losses are taking a huge toll on NZ rugby as it is. Imagine if players didn't have the carrot of All Black selection keeping them around.

 

[Teh Mite]

If the money is that bad in NZ, the players won't stick around "just to be an All Black" anyway. Amateur ethics are all well and good but don't count for anything when there's a mortgage to pay.

 

[ranger]

If the money is that bad in NZ, the players won't stick around "just to be an All Black" anyway.

Well some of them don't obviously, guys like Haydon Hopgood, Hamish Guard, Tim Bateman etc all just jumped ship in their very early 20s as soon as they got a good offer.

The money isn't that bad once they make it to a starting Super 14 or the All Blacks too, but realistically thats only a very small number of players when you consider just how many guys here are trying to make a living playing rugby.
Even then, the money you get from only playing Super 14 is easily bettered by offers from up north. The thing is, once they get that close to an All Black jersey, most of them can't bring themselves to give up unless the writing is very clearly on the wall.

 

[Gavin]

On thing that I have noticed is quite strange, and it's not a quality thing, is that some players who are considered average in the SH, do very well in the NH like Scott Hamilton, Bruce Riehana and Isaac Boss. I don't think it has as much to do with how good they are, but how their style suits some NH teams. There have been plenty of amazing SH players who never found their feet in Europe like Christian Cullen or Rico Gear.

To be fair Cullen was injured most of the time, but played well when he did get game-time.

 

[Shaggy]

Much as I'd like to see the likes of Carl Hayman, Nick Evans, etc, back in the All Blacks, i really hope it doesn't happen for the reasons that Ranger outlined - it will ruin/significantly weaken New Zealand domestic Rugby

I guess some form of change is inevitable though, so i'm guessing that there will be more "sabbatical" type arrangements (maybe even for non-All Blacks/SupeRugby players) in the future.

I can understand why the NZRU would be trying to get Hayman though, even if it is just for the World Cup, given the expectation to win it, and the pressure that this creates

 

[veux]

Afaik, NZ have said that they won't be able to afford to host a world cup again, so they have to (do whatever it takes) to win it.

 

[Amobokoboko]

The article the NZ Herald:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10702021

Would be a super frontrow if he came back

 

[Shaggy]

Afaik, NZ have said that they won't be able to afford to host a world cup again, so they have to (do whatever it takes) to win it.

Sure, but I doubt that they'd go to an extreme that would cause an exodus of players and weaken the long term strength of NZ rugby to do it ... at least I hope they don't

 

[smartcooky]

Just listening to Steve Tew on RadioSport

He says the story is "fanciful:, and they have not been in discussions with Toulon, Hayman or anyone else.

End of story

PS: He also reiterated that they will not be changing their current policy of selecting only players contracted to play domestic rugby in NZ.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I think we are missing the most obvious difference between Hayman and Carter, Carter pre aranged his "break". It was not a World Cup year and the NZRU had a date all along when he would be back training etc, Hayman (and coming from dunners i consider the man a legend) has been away doing his own thing for ages and would be coming back last minute trading on his rep to displace someone who up until that point had been on track for a World Cup...completely different.

I have no problem with guys getting picked for super squads on the back of the NH season but they really need to play in the super comp before getting a crack at the AB's, look at Luke Mac, was just not up to scratch when he came back.

 

[Gavin]

Just listening to Steve Tew on RadioSport

He says the story is "fanciful:, and they have not been in discussions with Toulon, Hayman or anyone else.

End of story

PS: He also reiterated that they will not be changing their current policy of selecting only players contracted to play domestic rugby in NZ.

You know he could be lying...

 

[FlukeArtist]

I doubt it Gavin.

Everything points to him speaking truthfully.

1. NZRFU have made their position on player eligibility quite clear; you play IN NZ, or you don't play FOR NZ
2. NZRFU wouldn't even need to speak to Toulon should Hayman be eligible to play for NZ (International rules state players must be available for national selection should their country come calling)- so that is BS re Toulon needing to be negotiated with.
3. I have serious doubts Hayman would be up to pace. No player that has returned from the NH is up to the pace of NZ rugby, let alone a better player.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I doubt it Gavin.

3. I have serious doubts Hayman would be up to pace. No player that has returned from the NH is up to the pace of NZ rugby, let alone a better player.

Tread carefully or you will start a meat swinging contest that you cannot avoid!

 

[Teh Mite]

And here we go... Impressive it only took 4 pages before someone started it...