Toulon will let Hayman go to World Cup

[TRF_Olyy]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,9818_6699819,00.html

"I don't want to prevent one of my players taking part in a World Cup that is being played in his own country," Boudjellal told the Irish Independent.

"Of course I am ready to let him go on condition that he comes back after the World Cup."

 

[nickdnz]

Interesting, but of course it won't happen, and that's a good thing.

Carl Hayman is far and away my favourite prop of all time, but there are too many cons for allowing any player however gifted, to get paid and play for an overseas club and represent your national team. It sets a double standard, you can't make exceptions.

Would have been nice for him to have played for Taranaki and the Hurricanes though, but I guess the mega bucks in france will often win out.

 

[Teh Mite]

Carl Hayman is far and away my favourite prop of all time, but there are too many cons for allowing any player however gifted, to get paid and play for an overseas club and represent your national team. It sets a double standard, you can't make exceptions.

 

[smartcooky]

Nice try, but no. Carter was never at any stage contracted to Perpignan. All there was was an agreement between The NZRU and USAP for Carter to take a sabbatical (effectively a working holiday) in Europe, and play for them while he was there. During the entire time he played for USAP, he was still contracted to the NZRU. That does not resemble the Hayman situation in any way, and the two simply cannot be compared.

 

[Teh Mite]

"to get paid and play for an overseas club and represent your national team."

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he did.

 

[munstermuffin]

Agreed with Bullitt on this 1.

 

[smartcooky]

With an appreciated overlap of sarcasm, he did not play at all for the All Blacks while he was contracted to USAP (and he was contracted to them, which is why he got a crap load of money). So yes, it is different. I bet you can't name a single All Black who played for the All Blacks while being contracted to a forign club. Carter had returned from his sabatical and went through further recovery, before he played for the All Blacks. So thanks for the sarcasm, but you're wrong.

Sorry Nick. I did not think anything I said above was sarcastic; intended or otherwise. I thought I was agreeing with you actually

NOTE: I didn't post the Carter photo, that was Bullitt. I was replying to him.

 

[nickdnz]

Sorry Nick. I did not think anything I said above was sarcastic; intended or otherwise. I thought I was agreeing with you actually

NOTE: I didn't post the Carter photo, that was Bullitt. I was replying to him.

Ahh, sorry mate for the kind of hostile post. A comedy of errors on my part. I missed Bullit's photo and thought you posted it, and then reasoned against it. Totally my bad. Deleted my post in shame

"to get paid and play for an overseas club and represent your national team."

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he did.

As I said earlier, he was not playing for the All Blacks at any point while he was with a French club. Had he played for USAP and the All Blacks during the same period, you may have had a valid point, but he wasn't.

 

[DonBilly]

Interesting, but of course it won't happen, and that's a good thing.

Carl Hayman is far and away my favourite prop of all time, but there are too many cons for allowing any player however gifted, to get paid and play for an overseas club and represent your national team. It sets a double standard, you can't make exceptions.

Would have been nice for him to have played for Taranaki and the Hurricanes though, but I guess the mega bucks in france will often win out.

On Monday Midi Olympique issue, there was an article about that with a Carl Hayman interview. It looks like actually the NZRU is in talks with Toulon and their doctors are talking to Toulon doctors in order to get access to Hayman's file.

 

[ranger]

Agreed with Bullitt on this 1.

Look at the facts, its a different situation entirely.

 

[Teh Mite]

What do you call a double standard of a double standard?

 

[nickdnz]

What do you call a double standard of a double standard?

I don't understand how it is a double standard. In the Hayman case, he will still be contracted to Toloun whilst playing for the All Blacks. Dan Carter was not playing for USAP, when he returned to the All Blacks, in fact it was a couple of months after his time expired with USAP due to injury. My entire premise was that you cannot have players who are playing and being paid by a forign club, whilst playing for the All Blacks. Your example of Carter, does not go against this. Where do you think there has been a double standard?

I'd say the worse double standard in terms of AB selection, is Luke McAlister being rushed to to play for the AB's, without playing in the NPC or S14, and only a Jr All Blacks game, and Sonny Bill Williams getting paid a truck load, with no game time in NZ, but short of that, the NZRU has been fairly consistant.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yes he did not play at any point but had he not got injured he wouldve been playing in France for 6 months and then put straight in to Tri Nations squad. If any other player tried that they'd be told where to go.

 

[Teh Mite]

These self-set "golden rules" that the NZRU like to harp on about selection criteria only if a player is based in New Zealand only count when they suit. As professionalism continues you'll see more and more of it also.

The whole "no England players outside of England" will backfire soon n'all.

 

[nickdnz]

These self-set "golden rules" that the NZRU like to harp on about selection criteria only if a player is based in New Zealand only count when they suit. As professionalism continues you'll see more and more of it also.

The whole "no England players outside of England" will backfire soon n'all.

But's it's hardly as if these rules are as pick and choose as you make them out to be. Carl Hayman, Chris Jack, Luke McAlister, Doug Howlett, Byron Kelleher, Nick Evans are all players who the AB's could have really done with after 2007, and some we could still really use now. But the only named you will see come the RWC are the ones who are now in NZ. The NZRU know that if you select overseas players, it will kill NZ's domestic game, as we don't have the money to compete and import, like European teams often can. So therefore we go without the odd great player, so we can continue to have a domestic game capable of generating other great players. There is of course the odd circumstance in which the NZRU aren't as solid as they should be, but on the whole they keep their selection policies consistant.

 

[Teh Mite]

If someone like Toulouse (or maybe even Melbourne) offered Carter, McCaw or a few select others stupid money, we'd see just how rich the NZRUs "convictions" run. The useful part of making the rules up themselves is that they can change them at a moments notice to suit. Nobody watches the watchmen.

 

[nickdnz]

If someone like Toulouse (or maybe even Melbourne) offered Carter, McCaw or a few select others stupid money, we'd see just how rich the NZRUs "convictions" run. The useful part of making the rules up themselves is that they can change them at a moments notice to suit. Nobody watches the watchmen.

Because McCaw and Carter aren't already offered stupid money?

 

[Teh Mite]

I bet the NZRU aren't offering "too good to refuse" salarys like Sarries just gave that Wallabies hooker. You'll see more and more of that from the big French outfits from now on in. I vet within the next few years we'll see the first £1,000,000/year player in the French league. And he'll likely be an All Black.

 

[smartcooky]

Yes he did not play at any point but had he not got injured he wouldve been playing in France for 6 months and then put straight in to Tri Nations squad. If any other player tried that they'd be told where to go.

But you entirely miss the point. Carter was CONTRACTED to the NZRU when he was playing for USAP. He was still being paid his "All Black" salary. The NZRU could at any time have said "Sorry, we want hm back" and USAP would have to give him up immediately. USAP had an agreement with the NZRU for his services.

In Hayman's case, he is CONTRACTED to Toulon. The NZRU have absolutely no control over him.

The contacting sitution is very important in this. It takes into account image rights, player/club/union endorsements, insurance, injury compensation, training regimen and regimes, player representation and a whole raft of other complications. It ain't just about who's paying the wages!!!

The two situations are entirely different.


PS: As for "stupid money" Bullet, McCaw has recently turned down such offers from French Rugby, and is expected to sign with the NZRU until at least the end of 2013. He sees his future in NZ, not Europe

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_6603327,00.html

We are also seeing a lot of mid-ranked players making their way back to NZ, disillusioned with life in Europe. If you aren't one of the top players in NZ, you will have a difficult time making your way in European Rugby

 

[ranger]

If someone like Toulouse (or maybe even Melbourne) offered Carter, McCaw or a few select others stupid money, we'd see just how rich the NZRUs "convictions" run. The useful part of making the rules up themselves is that they can change them at a moments notice to suit. Nobody watches the watchmen.

I hate to point it out but all that is is pessimistic guess work.

Also, its not "convictions" in the way you seem to see it. It isn't the NZRU being holier than thou, its the NZRU knowing that if they start picking overseas based players than half the rugby players in NZ would bolt before the end of the year. Most of the ANZC teams are running at a loss as it is and the majority of them are only getting paid $15-20 grand a year.

The NZRU would definitely like to select overseas players if it was at all possible.

I bet the NZRU aren't offering "too good to refuse" salarys like Sarries just gave that Wallabies hooker. You'll see more and more of that from the big French outfits from now on in. I vet within the next few years we'll see the first £1,000,000/year player in the French league. And he'll likely be an All Black.

How can you not understand this, its not possible for the All Blacks to pick overseas players. The sport would crumble in on itself in this country.