Toulon withdrawal

[TRF_stormer2010]

That is amazing, the perception of other countries toward this story ! I'd wonder how would the Kiwis, Aussies ans Saffies react if the Super XV would keep going on DURING the 4 Nations ? Because, that is exactly why Laporte and Noves have been complaining all these years. Even if in this particular case, it is linked with Internationals and not 6 Nations, the main problem here and BL's argument is about the top 14 still ruinning during International matches. THAT is the point, and not the wounded or suspended. He's been coaching for 15 years, so I bet he knows about these things. But he (and Noves) does not accept having to play unfair top 14 games. And maybe, the only way he can affect events, is by withdrawaling a match. Something Toulouse never had the courage to do !


So, to summ up things, to all non-French-forumers, ask yourselves : do you find it normal to have your domestic championship running during International tests ?

I'm generalising of course but I'd say all would be just fine. In fact it might make things somewhat interesting; spicing it up, something like a 'power play' period for the smaller teams to take avantage of. It all comes down to all three SH nations valuing their test team over the franchizes/provinces though. I don't want to make value judgements either way (to each his own) but that is the 'lens' we are looking through to give you an idea of the angle your average SH rugby follower would be looking at the situation from.

 

[Tony Manx]

Barcella has been Toulonized, meaning they took him out of obscurity (like other fellow Biarritz LH Menini) and he's now looking revitalized and relevant again. He's not the monster he once was (albeit his peak was ephemeral) in the scrum but he can hold his own quite well still and he's still a handful in the loose.

HaHa....obscurity when he was deemed to be the best in his position in the world while playing for BO.......he joined as a 25 year old ex Auch for 2008/9 season and played 26 out of potential 32 matches each in that season and the next. 2010/11, following serious injury, he did not play and then he played 25 and 22 matches the last two seasons...............

He has played JUST 69 Minutes for Toulon this season out of a potential 960............and now he has been revitalised!!!!!

Barcella like Imanol, Traille and Yach were all still capable of great things in the last few seasons but they all failed to put in the necessary performances on a constant basis and that was down to their own personal mindset as much as, if not more, than anything else................sure it is easy to blame BO's constant relegation battles but the players had more than a little to do with that!!!

I would happily admit that Blanco and his useless management were huge ccontributors but these guys were getting paid big bucks and failed to perform as I have already said.

 

[nickdnz]

That is amazing, the perception of other countries toward this story ! I'd wonder how would the Kiwis, Aussies ans Saffies react if the Super XV would keep going on DURING the 4 Nations ? Because, that is exactly why Laporte and Noves have been complaining all these years. Even if in this particular case, it is linked with Internationals and not 6 Nations, the main problem here and BL's argument is about the top 14 still ruinning during International matches. THAT is the point, and not the wounded or suspended. He's been coaching for 15 years, so I bet he knows about these things. But he (and Noves) does not accept having to play unfair top 14 games. And maybe, the only way he can affect events, is by withdrawaling a match. Something Toulouse never had the courage to do !

So, to summ up things, to all non-French-forumers, ask yourselves : do you find it normal to have your domestic championship running during International tests ?

If you knew anything about SH rugby, you would know that Domestic Rugby DOES run during the Rugby Championship - and that teams like Wellington miss out on Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith, Cory Jane, Dane Coles, TJ Peranara and Jeremy Thrush, which has resulted in the Lions relegation.

Well, I had not seen SH and Enland rugby fans as you described them, but the previous posts are changing my mind towards them ! Anything but jealousy towards our top 14 and it's attractivity. Something we are used to here with our soccer and French clubs unable to keep their best players, all going to Spain and England !

We are making big money here with rugby, but nothing comparable with soccer. Toulon is around 30-40 million Euros budget this season where PSG is 450 millions ... So what ? Not our fault if Super XV is unable to compete ... But it is easy for them to spit their venom on our faces ! I was expecting more fair play and respect from these people ! Rugby values in fact ! But it seems SH rugby fans are more into soccer values we are trying to avoid !!! Fortunatly for us, we can still chat with Welsh, Irish & Scottish !

What? You seem to think everyone wants rugby to be like in the Top 14? International rugby is more important to most New Zealanders, I'm not sure of a kiwi alive who would want a 30+ game domestic season, minimal homegrown talent in exchange for buying foreign players, and a national team that is increasingly becoming a joke. How is it you are bragging about money Toulon has comparred to Super Rugby, and have the nerve to talk about us having soccer values? How is it we put an emphasis on international rugby over club rugby, and yet we have soccer values? You have coaches *****ing and moaning about the international season interfering with domestic rugby, despite knowing that every year the domestic season will be the same. The French are continually so proud of their domestic season, because they don't have to get beaten year in and year out by the SH, due to not having to play them.

 

[Big Ewis]

that's all well Tony, the stats and all, but are you denying the effect Toulon has on all its players ? Menini was a fkng nobody, he's now in the xv de France and I'm not sure it's all just because he's seen more in the Var than he was in the Basque country. Barcella had lost all his mojo at scrumtime and nobody was talking about him anymore after those excellent 08-09-10 seasons. And yeah he played a couple of games this year, but have you seen him ? He was in Ulster in the Euro Cup and a top LH in every aspect, doesn't get much better than this. And there's no denying the move to Toulon has loaded him with envy and revived his career, I mean, I'm not sure what we're debating here.

Imanol looked poor every single time I watched Biarritz last season, he's on the verge of being selected again for France and regularly appears in mentions of the weekend's top players since at Toulouse.

All those ex-BO players are benefiting from new life in a competitive club again, there's no secret as to why we're seeing them thrive again (nor is there denying that they are).

 

[FrenchFan]

Nothing wrong with having a strong domestic league and enjoying it. Nobody here is asking to play agst SH.

 

[tituslechmakus]

If you knew anything about SH rugby, you would know that Domestic Rugby DOES run during the Rugby Championship - and that teams like Wellington miss out on Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith, Cory Jane, Dane Coles, TJ Peranara and Jeremy Thrush, which has resulted in the Lions relegation.



What? You seem to think everyone wants rugby to be like in the Top 14? International rugby is more important to most New Zealanders, I'm not sure of a kiwi alive who would want a 30+ game domestic season, minimal homegrown talent in exchange for buying foreign players, and a national team that is increasingly becoming a joke. How is it you are bragging about money Toulon has comparred to Super Rugby, and have the nerve to talk about us having soccer values? How is it we put an emphasis on international rugby over club rugby, and yet we have soccer values? You have coaches *****ing and moaning about the international season interfering with domestic rugby, despite knowing that every year the domestic season will be the same. The French are continually so proud of their domestic season, because they don't have to get beaten year in and year out by the SH, due to not having to play them.

So you did not read what I said ! You talk about Air NZ cup, which is nothing in World Rugby. I talked about Super XV. What if the Four Nations was held during the Super XV season ?

And again you did not read what I said previously for National teams. I am desperatly trying to explain that the FFR/LNR are too stupid to favour the National team rather that the top 14 ! You said international rugby is more important to Kiwis ! But so is it to French fans ! We know we are ridiculous on the international scene ... And we disagree with it ! But what could us fans do ? That is why I support Laporte, because he tries to make things change ...

 

[Big Ewis]

Nothing wrong with having a strong domestic league and enjoying it. Nobody here is asking to play agst SH.

well I mean there isn't really much discussion to be had here (I know I've been saying this often lately !! ). I mean bottom line yes the Top 14 is humongous but we were doing just fine just some years ago playing with 14 teams domestically AND then very well capable of beating the All-Blacks, Aussies, or Boks and being a top nation generally, simultaneously. Five teams would be just ridiculous, not in a sarcastic sense, in a literal sense: ridiculous. Imagine having all the Southwest alone down to just 5, let alone the Clermont centre region, Bourgoin/Lyon/Grenoble/Oyonnax Alpes region, southeast Var...5 teams, ridiculous from a historical, cultural standpoint.

So what do we need ? a healthy prolific Top 14 AND a competitive bleus team again (as it's meant to be, as it's always been since about the 50's when it started). How do we achieve that ? Fine-tuning and a competent contingent to do it. Will it happen soon ? Maybe, but probably, no.


EDIT
I should add NZ definitely have an ideal system for when it comes to national duties. But it's silly and, again, ridiculous or aberrant to talk about one region of the world in terms that apply to another. Just as we're not asking NZ to have stronger regional identity or more history to clubs and pop 14 teams out, so is it incumbent upon us to understand France are just a different ground, with different rules, a different setting...it's unthinkable the country would just own the entire lower half of France and its clubs and our league would basically merely serve as a pool to pick players for the greater purpose, making the national team as strong as possible.
It's good for NZ they have what they have, but clubs as it's been discussed before on some thread have an utmost importance here. So we'll just have to work with that and try to get back to a finer state of equilibrium betw clubs and country.

 

[tituslechmakus]

Nothing wrong with having a strong domestic league and enjoying it. Nobody here is asking to play agst SH.

Well, I would really like to have an international club period every year, the ERCC against the Super XV winner, that could be fun ! And the week just after, an All Star game, like they do in the NBA ! North all star against South all star !

 

[Big Ewis]

Well, I would really like to have an international club period every year, the ERCC against the Super XV winner, that could be fun ! And the week just after, an All Star game, like they do in the NBA ! North all star against South all star !

closest thing to the all-star game is the B I lions and they have enough difficulty beating one of AUS, NZ, SA at a time for a test series !...but yes, would be cool.
And I'd love to see European clubs against SH clubs. That would really be interesting and serve a true purpose.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Well, I would really like to have an international club period every year, the ERCC against the Super XV winner, that could be fun ! And the week just after, an All Star game, like they do in the NBA ! North all star against South all star !

the idea is trying to play less games not more, why would you want an International club period, would be great for the coaches picking up the pieces afterwards would the clubs benefit NO so whats the point, of course we could then start even more ridiculas threads on our team is better than yours, etc etc. a little like Toulon declare forfeit ( bedtime story stuff from cuckoooooooo Land)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

closest thing to the all-star game is the B I lions and they have enough difficulty beating one of AUS, NZ, SA at a time for a test series !...but yes, would be cool.
And I'd love to see European clubs against SH clubs. That would really be interesting and serve a true purpose.

Saracens play a SA Currie Cup side each year. Coming up it's against WP. Admittedly both teams lack their stars and enither represent the absolute pinnacle of their hemispheres in any case. Still, it's a bit of fun and usually the home side takes it.

 

[Big Ewis]

the idea is trying to play less games not more, why would you want an International club period, would be great for the coaches picking up the pieces afterwards would the clubs benefit NO so whats the point, of course we could then start even more ridiculas threads on our team is better than yours, etc etc. a little like Toulon declare forfeit ( bedtime story stuff from cuckoooooooo Land)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well wait up gastoni, we all understand the reason it doesn't happen is because it's impractical schedule wise and physically for the players, but although some would use the outcomes as a way to swing their dicks it would serve a good purpose. We could really evaluate just how strong our teams are, which is just a healthy curiosity. I said recently I'd thought the 2013 Clermont or 2014-current Toulon had what it takes to measure up to the All-Blacks if at their best, not to beat them necessarily but certainly to hold up well. They're clubs with tremendous depth, fantastic execution on both ends, excellent coaching staffs - and *real chemistry* France the Test side would dream about. It would be nice to see a Toulouse Sharks, Toulon Chiefs, Clermont Waratahs, that sort of matchup. The best of the best from both worlds.

stormer remember this:
http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/33956-Toulon-to-play-Waratahs?highlight=toulon

No idea where they're at with this now.

 

[nickdnz]

So you did not read what I said ! You talk about Air NZ cup, which is nothing in World Rugby. I talked about Super XV. What if the Four Nations was held during the Super XV season ?

And again you did not read what I said previously for National teams. I am desperatly trying to explain that the FFR/LNR are too stupid to favour the National team rather that the top 14 ! You said international rugby is more important to Kiwis ! But so is it to French fans ! We know we are ridiculous on the international scene ... And we disagree with it ! But what could us fans do ? That is why I support Laporte, because he tries to make things change ...

The NPC is more important to many kiwis than Super Rugby, if the Wellington team had all its players it would arguably be better than the Hurricanes (we...if we had a half good 12st 5/8th). It's hardly nothing in World Rugby - it's been going a lot longer and has much more history than Super Rugby, and it's not called the Air New Zealand Cup for five years :lol:. The SH doesn't really get the Top 14 either (outside of maybe a game a week on a premier rugby channel), so I'm not surprised you weren't aware. My point is I'm not sure why you blame SH people for their attitude towards Toulon in general. In the last few months Moudrad Boudjellal has been trying to restrict the release of SH players for international rugby despite knowing the rules. Leporte is now complaining about international players during the release. Now maybe I jumped the gun, and Laporte is suggesting changing the Top 14 season better around the internationals. If that is the case then that's simply a very sensible suggestion. However the general theme with these suggestions is to try and limit the internationals or not release players for them - and if that's the implication behind Laporte's remarks then it's likely the reason people are reacting.

Just as we're not asking NZ to have stronger regional identity or more history to clubs and pop 14 teams out, so is it incumbent upon us to understand France are just a different ground, with different rules, a different setting...it's unthinkable the country would just own the entire lower half of France and its clubs and our league would basically merely serve as a pool to pick players for the greater purpose, making the national team as strong as possible.
It's good for NZ they have what they have, but clubs as it's been discussed before on some thread have an utmost importance here. So we'll just have to work with that and try to get back to a finer state of equilibrium betw clubs and country.

There is a hell of a lot of regional identity in New Zealand that I think people are not aware of, with plenty of history. The Auckland team of the 80s and 90s for example with Sean Fitzpatrick, Olo Brown, Zinzan Brooke, Robin Brooke, Michael Jones, Grant Fox, John Kirwan, Lee Stensness, Inga Tuigamala, Joe Stanley, Frank Bunce, Carlos Spencer etc. Then this is the Ranfurly Shield which is again very prestigious within New Zealand. The setup does support international rugby, but there is a lot that is overlooked. If you live in Manawatu, Taranaki, Hawkes Bay, Bay of Plenty, Counties Manukau, Northland, Southland or Tasman - you're lucky to get one game of Super Rugby a year and one international game played every five or six years - so most people in those places have a much stronger affinity for the NPC - where they actually get to support their teams live.

 

[TheSaffycen]

That is amazing, the perception of other countries toward this story ! I'd wonder how would the Kiwis, Aussies ans Saffies react if the Super XV would keep going on DURING the 4 Nations ? Because, that is exactly why Laporte and Noves have been complaining all these years. Even if in this particular case, it is linked with Internationals and not 6 Nations, the main problem here and BL's argument is about the top 14 still ruinning during International matches. THAT is the point, and not the wounded or suspended. He's been coaching for 15 years, so I bet he knows about these things. But he (and Noves) does not accept having to play unfair top 14 games. And maybe, the only way he can affect events, is by withdrawaling a match. Something Toulouse never had the courage to do !


So, to summ up things, to all non-French-forumers, ask yourselves : do you find it normal to have your domestic championship running during International tests ?

Yes. That is why the Leicester Tigers point I made earlier still stands, big teams get injuries and players called up but don't even make a 'threat' of just not turning up. I'm younger than the academy players he talks about but I still play with adults, and i'm as big as them. I play tighthead as well, I haven't been injured (I know it's no where near the same level but the physical maturity thing I don't really buy)

 

[tituslechmakus]

closest thing to the all-star game is the B I lions and they have enough difficulty beating one of AUS, NZ, SA at a time for a test series !...but yes, would be cool.
And I'd love to see European clubs against SH clubs. That would really be interesting and serve a true purpose.

Yes but that is because there are no French in the Lions !

Seriously, that could maybe lead to a uniformization of the World rugby schedule. It would be very hard to set up, but soooo much better when done. A bit like they did for soccer. They sometimes have good ideas there !

 

[FrenchFan]

Boudjellal has never tried to block the release of his internationals. There is no evidence of that. All foreign internationals at Toulon have a clause in their contract in order to play for their country, otherwise they would never sign for the club.

Toulon have also committed 8 French players to the national squad for the AI internationals. Not bad for a team full of foreigners and no so called homegrown talent. :lol:

No Toulon internationals has been barred from international duty by their president up to now. If Boudjellal even tried that game, he would create a disastrous precedent for the club and could kiss goodbye to signing on the international stars he is hoping to sign after the WC.

Laporte was playing the crowd and stirring it in the media. It worked. Everybody jumped in with both feet. The Toulon haters couldn't help themselves. There's still tripping all over themselves as we speak...

Laporte hasn't actually said anything about changing the season both domestically or internationally. He didn't say any of that.

He is just pushing his own political agenda as the man of change in French rugby. He is eying the next FFR presidency. Everyone knows that. It's politics.

 

[tituslechmakus]

And I would really like him to be successful at the FFR presidency election !

 

[FrenchFan]

well don't hold your breath...

He is up against the FFR mafia and Blancorleone is already vice president and will likely get the job. FFR elect their own people only.

Laporte will be just an outsider. The odds of les Bleus winning the world cup are much better.

In the meantime we are going to hear more from Bernard banging his little drum in the media like this week. But it's just noise.

Until he gets the job, nothing will happen. And if Blanco gets the job, we will get more of the same for another 10 years.

 

[Big Ewis]

It's what I've been saying...Laporte is more verbose than a verb on overdose (aww shieeet son, you felll dat rhyme therrr ???). Toulon had a rough beginning to the year...on many levels...panicking just a bit now and making a deal out of this situation...and one must make an effort to understand them, objectively: 7 absences in the front row, Top 14 and Euro champs must field academy players. That's insane enough for me just for one game, I don't really care what other clubs do elsewhere, for a Top 14 fan in France looking at Toulon right now that's pretty insane. 3rd stringers, 4TH STRINGERS...ok...but academy for such a caliber of a team ? Quite desperate times in Toulon !
Anyways...
@FrenchFan Serge Blancorleone, that your latest one on the FFR ? not bad, not bad...

 

[gaston le gaff]

well wait up gastoni, we all understand the reason it doesn't happen is because it's impractical schedule wise and physically for the players, but although some would use the outcomes as a way to swing their dicks it would serve a good purpose. We could really evaluate just how strong our teams are, which is just a healthy curiosity. I said recently I'd thought the 2013 Clermont or 2014-current Toulon had what it takes to measure up to the All-Blacks if at their best, not to beat them necessarily but certainly to hold up well. They're clubs with tremendous depth, fantastic execution on both ends, excellent coaching staffs - and *real chemistry* France the Test side would dream about. It would be nice to see a Toulouse Sharks, Toulon Chiefs, Clermont Waratahs, that sort of matchup. The best of the best from both worlds.

stormer remember this:
http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/33956-Toulon-to-play-Waratahs?highlight=toulon

No idea where they're at with this now.

So how would you evaluate a team on one match which would probably played without their best players rested for obvious reasons.