Toulon withdrawal

[Big Ewis]

So how would you evaluate a team on one match which would probably played without their best players rested for obvious reasons.

yeah yeah, just thinking out loud. I don't have a concrete project or anything...just saying it *would be nice* if it were possible, full lineups, like 3 or 4 matches all NH vs SH clubs...surely we'd evaluate the levels somewhat, we'd get some idea, and tendencies would start drawing if there were like I said about 4 matches. Would be pretty damn cool.

 

[Tony Manx]

that's all well Tony, the stats and all, but are you denying the effect Toulon has on all its players ? Menini was a fkng nobody, he's now in the xv de France and I'm not sure it's all just because he's seen more in the Var than he was in the Basque country. Barcella had lost all his mojo at scrumtime and nobody was talking about him anymore after those excellent 08-09-10 seasons. And yeah he played a couple of games this year, but have you seen him ? He was in Ulster in the Euro Cup and a top LH in every aspect, doesn't get much better than this. And there's no denying the move to Toulon has loaded him with envy and revived his career, I mean, I'm not sure what we're debating here.

Imanol looked poor every single time I watched Biarritz last season, he's on the verge of being selected again for France and regularly appears in mentions of the weekend's top players since at Toulouse.

All those ex-BO players are benefiting from new life in a competitive club again, there's no secret as to why we're seeing them thrive again (nor is there denying that they are).

What I am saying is that the players that I quoted, just did not perform for BO over the last three seasons because their heart was not in it (for various reasons being injury for Barcella and the loss of international status for the others) and Toulon is not THE factor in their rejuvenation!! On the money they were being paid at BO this is obscene and Blanco should have got rid of them at least two seasons earlier than he did and he could have invested that in younger and more hungrier players..........

It could be any new club, and not just Toulon, that would change thee guys' attitude for the good and Imanol, more than anyone else, at Toulouse has shown this as he has been very, very good this season and without resorting to the theatricals....whether he is borderline French international status is argumentative!!

I am also saying that you cannot judge Barcella on just over an hour on the field since he joined Toulon and say that he is back to somewhere near where he was....he has played well but let us see him do that over a longer period and consistently......

I was sad to see, but understood why, Menini went but he only played for half a season at Biarritz (having come in for the 2013/14 season after 8 years with MdM, Beziers, Aix and Oyonnax in Pro 2) before going to Toulon (as a medical joker I believe?)....he alone proves the rule that a decent prop only comes into their prime later rather than sooner on in their professional life!!!

 

[smartcooky]

That is amazing, the perception of other countries toward this story ! I'd wonder how would the Kiwis, Aussies ans Saffies react if the Super XV would keep going on DURING the 4 Nations ?

But you see, there is the rub. We don't.

We halt the domestic Super Rugby season because we have the good sense to do so, both from a competition and from a player welfare perspective.

But even then, Super Rugby teams in NZ sometimes have do without their top players because they have an All Black camp, or because the NZRU/AB coaches want certain players rested or to have minor medical procedures. Do our coaches ***** and moan and threaten to default matches because of this? No, because the Super Rugby coaches and the national coaches work with each other, not against each other, for the betterment of New Zealand rugby as a whole, rather than for the betterment of an owner's bank balance and the boosting of their over inflated ego.

 

[Thingimubob]

Didn't the Ospreys do this a few years ago? Cancelled a game in Ulster as they had no props left?
Think they got fined and docked 4 points, which may have been reinstated after an appeal.

 

[Big Ewis]

What I am saying is that the players that I quoted, just did not perform for BO over the last three seasons because their heart was not in it (for various reasons being injury for Barcella and the loss of international status for the others) and Toulon is not THE factor in their rejuvenation!! On the money they were being paid at BO this is obscene and Blanco should have got rid of them at least two seasons earlier than he did and he could have invested that in younger and more hungrier players..........

It could be any new club, and not just Toulon, that would change thee guys' attitude for the good

ah yes, that's true. You're right. It *could've been* any other club just so long as they escaped the Basque country. That's true in theory.
But all I know though, what I see with my eyes is almost literally every single player who goes to Toulon turns good: whether he was a) in a Top 14 bad club, b) an average/ even good club, c) or a foreigner whose int'l career was dying out and whose form was lackluster, or d) train a guy who likely would've been irrelevant anywhere else, e) some unknown foreigner who finds good form - they come to Toulon and turn into something (or at least maintain excellent form).

In that order, we have a) Menini, Barcella, Romain Tao... b) Eric Escande, Bastareaud, Mermoz to some extent c) Juan Smith, Rossouw, Steff Armitage, O'Connor d) Chiocci, Orioli e) Burden, to some extent David Smith.

I definitely didn't mean Barcella was back to where he was, not sure what I said but regardless I never said he was as good in the scrum obviously but he's got that good activity around the park which I'd only seen previously when he played for les Bleus, and not in Biarritz tbh.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Didn't the Ospreys do this a few years ago? Cancelled a game in Ulster as they had no props left?
Think they got fined and docked 4 points, which may have been reinstated after an appeal.

Correct!

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ospreys-fined-100k-docked-four-1918110

 

[William18]

I'm generalising of course but I'd say all would be just fine. In fact it might make things somewhat interesting; spicing it up, something like a 'power play' period for the smaller teams to take avantage of. It all comes down to all three SH nations valuing their test team over the franchizes/provinces though. I don't want to make value judgements either way (to each his own) but that is the 'lens' we are looking through to give you an idea of the angle your average SH rugby follower would be looking at the situation from.

It wouldn't be fine with me. This is why in the SH we ensure that Super Rugby does not go on so long that it conflicts with any international rugby games.

 

[tituslechmakus]

But you see, there is the rub. We don't.

We halt the domestic Super Rugby season because we have the good sense to do so, both from a competition and from a player welfare perspective.

But even then, Super Rugby teams in NZ sometimes have do without their top players because they have an All Black camp, or because the NZRU/AB coaches want certain players rested or to have minor medical procedures. Do our coaches ***** and moan and threaten to default matches because of this? No, because the Super Rugby coaches and the national coaches work with each other, not against each other, for the betterment of New Zealand rugby as a whole, rather than for the betterment of an owner's bank balance and the boosting of their over inflated ego.

Yes, and as I said previously, this is exactly the contrary in France ! What takes places in SH is what every rugby fan up here would like to happen ! We would like our authorities to stop doing politics and focus on rugby and particularly on the national team, to make it competitiv. We are getting so ridiculous, just because of FFR/LNR ! Enough ! And this is the main reason of Laporte's bluff, end this silly situation !