Trans Women In Sport (Mainly UK Specific)

[ncurd]

Thought this was slightly separate for politics.

My view is pretty much a safety thing or the ability compete in an unfair way backed by Science but since the UK Supreme Court ruling we are seeing people just doing it because of "biological sex" or more accurately gender perceived at birth. I use this term because there is no scientific backing for a biological sex binary as ruled by the supreme court and we've seen predominantly in sport with Intersex people competing as woman the issues that entails who grew up as women and female on thier birth certifcate.

Now its happening in sports where at grassroots mixed gendered teams have always been fine and nobody really had an issue with that so its not safety thing or a competitive things (a handful of extremely exceptional cis-women have played some first class cricket).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/articles/c0l0rje87y5o

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I get it at the elite level and I guess some contact sports at the amateur level. But the just for funsies Sunday league isn’t helped by this rule.

 

[Saintjay]

Thought this was slightly separate for politics.

My view is pretty much a safety thing or the ability compete in an unfair way backed by Science but since the UK Supreme Court ruling we are seeing people just doing it because of "biological sex" or more accurately gender perceived at birth. I use this term because there is no scientific backing for a biological sex binary as ruled by the supreme court and we've seen predominantly in sport with Intersex people competing as woman the issues that entails who grew up as women and female on thier birth certifcate.

Now its happening in sports where at grassroots mixed gendered teams have always been fine and nobody really had an issue with that so its not safety thing or a competitive things (a handful of extremely exceptional cis-women have played some first class cricket).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/articles/c0l0rje87y5o

It's further complicated by the question should you need a GRC to compete or not at elite level.

If the answer is yes then you are creating a teir of trans athletes who can partake.

 

[ncurd]

I get it at the elite level and I guess some contact sports at the amateur level. But the just for funsies Sunday league isn't helped by this rule.

I think contact sports at the amatuer and semi-pro level is the main area of genuine concern as it becomes a safety thing.

We know as elite or US terms College level nobody is really making it enough in non-contact sports that even registers the slightest blip apart from 1 or 2 very isolated cases.

It's further complicated by the question should you need a GRC to compete or not at elite level.

If the answer is yes then you are creating a teir of trans athletes who can partake.

I think the issue of self ID is for one politics. I'd take the entire idea of it out the GRC proves nothing from a biological capability perspective. Its up to sports science and individual sports to determine if a distinct unfair advantage can be obtained or there is a safety issues. Then becomes of questions of how long ago you transitioned if you take medications and at what age you were.

They can chose on self-ID or not but countries do use it so there's no point in governing based on that alone.

 

[Saintjay]

I think contact sports at the amatuer and semi-pro level is the main area of genuine concern as it becomes a safety thing.

We know as elite or US terms College level nobody is really making it enough in non-contact sports that even registers the slightest blip apart from 1 or 2 very isolated cases.

I think the issue of self ID is for one politics. I'd take the entire idea of it out the GRC proves nothing from a biological capability perspective. Its up to sports science and individual sports to determine if a distinct unfair advantage can be obtained or there is a safety issues. Then becomes of questions of how long ago you transitioned if you take medications and at what age you were.

They can chose on self-ID or not but countries do use it so there's no point in governing based on that alone.

I don't know the answer to any of this. Especially as to how you make it fair.

World rugby has trans women as - finding that they are "stronger by 25% to 50%, are 30% more powerful, 40% heavier, and about 15% faster than biological females"

I'm assuming this translate to most sports which on face value doesn't seem fair, yet nor does excluding people either.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't know the answer to any of this. Especially as to how you make it fair.

World rugby has trans women as - finding that they are "stronger by 25% to 50%, are 30% more powerful, 40% heavier, and about 15% faster than biological females"

I'm assuming this translate to most sports which on face value doesn't seem fair, yet nor does excluding people either.

I'm not sure about that to be honest, it's unfortunate but no different to someone being in a wheelchair not being able to compete in able bodied sport in my opinion.

Trans people want, and deserve, equality. If it's proven that they have an unfair advantage competing in sport than I don't see any justifiable complaint that they aren't allowed to do so because it's not equality.

If there's no proven advantage, and I don't think the research is there yet to comment with assurance one way or the other, then it should not be a problem.

I think we need a proper unbiased study preferably funded by sporting bodies before integration is possible.

For something like basketball where height is an advantage, I don't see how it could be possible.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Riders with EPO had(have lol) a 10% advantage over clean riders. That’s the difference between winning the gold medal and sitting at home.

You’d have to have differences well below that for it to be fair.

 

[Saintjay]

I'm not sure about that to be honest, it's unfortunate but no different to someone being in a wheelchair not being able to compete in able bodied sport in my opinion.

Trans people want, and deserve, equality. If it's proven that they have an unfair advantage competing in sport than I don't see any justifiable complaint that they aren't allowed to do so because it's not equality.

If there's no proven advantage, and I don't think the research is there yet to comment with assurance one way or the other, then it should not be a problem.

I think we need a proper unbiased study preferably funded by sporting bodies before integration is possible.

For something like basketball where height is an advantage, I don't see how it could be possible.

I'm assuming world rugby are basing those figures on some sort of study.
Again I'm guessing they are looking at a safety point of view.

I honestly don't think they can wait for it to be definitely proven. I guess like most sports all these questions are new and how do you base safety and fairness on the current information available. Not sure on the source they use for the advantages.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender/women

 

[ncurd]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...=Social&utm_source=Bluesky#Echobox=1770187976

 

[Deleted member 91904]

Lots of right wing types insistent they care about fairness in women's and girls' sport despite not watching it before and still not watching it now

 

[Welsh Exile]

Lots of right wing types insistent they care about fairness in women's and girls' sport despite not watching it before and still not watching it now

I’m sure these people exist but I don’t know how helpful it is to think this way about everyone that is against trans people in competitive sports.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Lots of right wing types insistent they care about fairness in women's and girls' sport despite not watching it before and still not watching it now

Most of them are busy protecting rapists and paedophiles (explicitly, this is just for the right wing types wanting to politicise a non-issue)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The whole reason women's sport exists is because it was recognised they couldn't compete with men.

If trans women have enough of that residual advantage then they shouldn't be allowed to compete as women, it undermines the whole reason for them being separated in the first place.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The whole reason women's sport exists is because it was recognised they couldn't compete with men.

If trans women have enough of that residual advantage then they shouldn't be allowed to compete as women, it undermines the whole reason for them being separated in the first place.

You’ll get called a right wing Daily
Mail reader by @Vaquer

 

[Quel Carreleur]

The whole reason women's sport exists is because it was recognised they couldn't compete with men.

If trans women have enough of that residual advantage then they shouldn't be allowed to compete as women, it undermines the whole reason for them being separated in the first place.

Yes, but... it needs to based on evidence, not feels - which is likely to involve a shit-tonne of nuance, and too much for non-specialists like anyone on this board, to wrap their heads around.

Different for different sports. Different in terms of how far down the transitioning journey. Different in terms of age at which transition started, and age at each subsequent intervention.

Also nuance on trans athlete Vs average woman and trans athlete Vs elite woman, so probably ending in difference answerd at the amateur, semi-pro and elite levels.

Also needs to separate the issues of trans-women in sport from trans-people in society

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yes, but... it needs to based on evidence, not feels - which is likely to involve a shit-tonne of nuance, and too much for non-spécialistes like anyone on this board, to wrap their heads around.
Different for different sports. Different in terms of how far down the transitioning journey. Different in terms of age at which transition started, and age at each subsequent intervention.
Also nuance on trans athlete Vs average woman and trans athlete Vs elite woman, so probably ending in difference nuance at the amateur, semi-pro and elite levels.
Also needs to separate the issues of trans-women in sport from trans-people in society

Evidence has shown men who could barely compete in male sports coming into women's sports and instantly dominating.

I agree it should be evidence based, I just feel the burden should be to prove the advantage that we all know exists is no longer there rather than anytime to prove it is there.

If the proportion of wins and records is skewing heavily towards trans athletes over cis women then it is a problem.

Bearing in mind the advantage is significant enough that reasonably good boys playing for a local club in their mid teens can thrash the world champion women in some sports, that is a huge advantage to show is no longer there.

The well established evidence shows men vastly outperform women. It's for those advocating for trans sportspeople to prove this is no longer the case, not the other way round.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

1. Please show that evidence, and include nuance
2. You're showing your bias, please do better ("we all know exists") NB: the purpose of collecting evidence is not "to prove that I'm right"; but "to find out what reality seems to be"
3. Yes, that's the evidence we're looking for - complete with nuance
4. Trans-women aren't men.mtrans-girls aren't boys
5. See #4

For the hard of thinking at the back TRANS-WOMEN =/= BLOKE IN A DRESS

ETA: but thank you for reminding me why I try not to get involved in these discussions.
Assertions absent evidence
Everybody knows
No allowance for nuance
Trans-women are just men

 

[ncurd]

Just to repeat the link I already posted. On evidence.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...=Social&utm_source=Bluesky#Echobox=1770187976

 

[Saintjay]

If you can guarantee it's fair, no safety issue and there is no competitive advantage maybe you can argue at that point you can be included. How you measure that I've no idea. The difference in Elite athletes training 24/7 vs the Dog and Duck third XV athletes just turning up on a Saturday.

Not sure where you then go with this with the UK supreme court ruling. I'm guessing it's up to governing bodies.

Always slightly wary of men dictating who can and can't take part in womens sport. The competitors views matter more i guess.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

1. Please show that evidence, and include nuance
2. You're showing your bias, please do better ("we all know exists") NB: the purpose of collecting evidence is not "to prove that I'm right"; but "to find out what reality seems to be"
3. Yes, that's the evidence we're looking for - complete with nuance
4. Trans-women aren't men.mtrans-girls aren't boys
5. See #4

For the hard of thinking at the back TRANS-WOMEN =/= BLOKE IN A DRESS

ETA: but thank you for reminding me why I try not to get involved in these discussions.
Assertions absent evidence
Everybody knows
No allowance for nuance
Trans-women are just men

1. The fact that a team of 15 year old boys best the women world champions convincingly...?
2. Are you seriously claiming I'm showing bias by staying the obvious fact that men outperform women in sport...? That's not bias, it's obvious. If you want to deny it you're the one with a bias.
3. Evidence you are failing to provide to counter the abundance of evidence that men outperform women by a large margin in sports. We aren't talking marginal differences, we are talking a gulf in ability.
4. Trans women came from men. You are yet to establish a significant difference. Again you're trying to shift the burden of proof, it's for you to prove the significant advantages men have from a young age are no longer there.

For the hard of thinking, trans women =/= women.

Everything you accuse others of, you are guilty of yourself. Saying there is a lack of evidence that men outperform women is so detached from reality.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

DP

 

[Quel Carreleur]

https://bit.ly/4thL02k

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Interesting thread. Apologies for the late reply!

it needs to based on evidence, not feels

Would this constitute evidence? Kindly note this is U12, as in pre-teens. Difference in performance increases after that. I hope, given the source, you agree there should be no questioning whatsoever regarding sampling, size, etc. Again, U12. I know this is records, and not the median values for the events. Unfortunately one is very easy to find and the other one virtually impossible. Still, the picture is pretty telling. I've heard a million times 'boys and girls have approximately the same performance till they hit the teens'. My personal experience said otherwise, so i checked. Evidence appears to contradict such statement.

 

[ncurd]

Interesting thread. Apologies for the late reply!


Would this constitute evidence? Kindly note this is U12, as in pre-teens. Difference in performance increases after that. I hope, given the source, you agree there should be no questioning whatsoever regarding sampling, size, etc. Again, U12. I know this is records, and not the median values for the events. Unfortunately one is very easy to find and the other one virtually impossible. Still, the picture is pretty telling. I've heard a million times 'boys and girls have approximately the same performance till they hit the teens'. My personal experience said otherwise, so i checked. Evidence appears to contradict such statement.


View attachment 25727

I dont think that of evidence on anything that was being said. Its generally accepted men or boys have a performance advantage over women/girls. The question (for some) is whether HRT and other forms of transition removes enough of that performance advantage.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I dont think that of evidence on anything that was being said. Its generally accepted men or boys have a performance advantage over women/girls.

That's the point, it is not. Unfortunately. Just one example: you have U12 mixed judo competitions in many countries. When japanese people see it they think the organizers are taking the ****. Not all comps, granted, but quite a lot. And when you ask why they tell you that the differences in strength, speed and size are insignificant at that age. Then you see the podiums and there's not a girl in sight.

Let me say it again: there are official judo tournaments in europe, organized by the local federations arguing that in U12 categories the difference in performance between boys and girls is pretty much the same. I am not talking about a random underground backyard mma in the outskirts of Minsk. These are official judo comps in western europe. Halls with stands packed with parents applauding when a boy drops a 10 year old girl on her head against the floor while the country's judo fed president says "what an ippon!".

The question (for some) is whether HRT and other forms of transition removes enough of that performance advantage.

There are structural physiological differences.
How could it, in sports where height gives you an advantage? Or different arm-span/height ratios? Hart size and lung capacity? Bone density?
HRT basically suppresses testosterone and administers estrogen. It could (kind of a key word here) affect some muscle mass and fat ratios, but does nothing, niets, nada to most of the other factors.

I'd love to be able to be precise with the next phrase, but it's tricky given the available evidence, so i'll present it as a question: Do you think it's fair to say that the overwhelming majority of transitions in sports go from male to female? Anecdotal evidence around me suggest it is. Strongly. So i wouldnt be intellectually honest if i dont ask myself the following questions

- Why? Why is that?
- is transition proportion (male to female vs female to male) similar in the general population (vs sports related transitioning)?
- Is there a specific advantage for males transitioning to female over females transitioning to male in sports?

I dont have the answers.

 

[ncurd]

I dont have the answers.

Which is why this thread focuses on science based evidence. The Jury's still out it without definitive proof one way or the other which is unlikely. However theres no smoking gun the anti trans-women in sport seam to think there os overwhelming evidence of.

Your first point whilst well written is still completely irrelevant.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

As far as I'm aware, there are cases of men transitioning to women and then dominating in their sport. I'm not aware of any case of a woman transitioning to a man and the same occurring.

If there are cases where enough of that advantage it's removed, it's clear that there are also plenty of cases where it isn't, and as such you then need to set the rules to somehow allow some trans athletes but but others. Good luck trying to decide where that line sits...

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Which is why this thread focuses on science based evidence.

I was being sarcastic, my bad.
Is height an advantage for basketball players? Does a longer reach help a boxer? A swimmer? Yes or no would be nice.

The problem with that line of questioning is that, though well intentioned (sometimes), using the scientific method as a flag, it shifts the burden of proof and tries to hide the sun with a hand while asking us "demonstrate the sun is there to me, while i am not looking?". It's doable, but it takes time, a lot of time. And in the in between, for some inexplicable reason, they get to participate.

That line of questioning, however, does not answer, in fact it doesnt even ask, why should we bend over and accommodate for such requests to begin with? Why should women sports have to even consider such a request to adapt in such a way? Why cant they, alternatively, create their own category and build up from there? The lack of those questions speaks volumes.

Your first point whilst well written is still completely irrelevant.

Only if 'Its generally accepted men or boys have a performance advantage over women/girls.', which i dont believe it is. Hence my post. Thanks for the compliment tho!