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USA vs All Blacks - 01/11

Jaguares

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Key thing to remember is this is the #1 team vs the #18 team, if you equated that out to soccer it would be like the Germany vs Aussie, based on the number of teams playing soccer, so you can see how a big scoreline was expected, there is such a gulf in class between the teams.

Actually kinda like the Blues and the rest of NZ rugby, you must understand that analogy, :lol:

That's not true, Angola participated for the first and only time in the FIFA WC 2006. They were the 61st team in FIFA ranking at december 2005:

http://en.fifaranking.net/ranking/?d=2005-12-16&rnkp=1

And they played against: Mexico #5, Portugal #10 and Iran #19

What were the results?

Angola 0 - Portugal 1
Angola 0 - Mexico 0
Angola 1 - Iran 1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angola_at_the_FIFA_World_Cup

That's impossible to happen in rugby, a team playing their first World Cup, with most amateur players would be crushed and humiliated by either Top 20 team, without any contemplation. But in soccer, with a low-risk and a strong defense, you can get decent results, in rugby is impossible for that to happen by the characteristics of our sport. In rugby you have to defend 70 meters wide and also your opponents can make points to many feet away from your posts (drops and penalties). In football you must defend only 7 meters wide, the goal-line and also has a special player dedicated to defending that small portion of the field (the goalkeeper)
 
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nickdnz

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That's not true, Angola participated for the first and only time in the FIFA WC 2006. They were the 61st team in FIFA ranking at december 2005:

http://en.fifaranking.net/ranking/?d=2005-12-16&rnkp=1

And they played against: Mexico #5, Portugal #10 and Iran #19

What were the results?

Angola 0 - Portugal 1
Angola 0 - Mexico 0
Angola 1 - Iran 1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angola_at_the_FIFA_World_Cup

That's impossible to happen in rugby, a team playing their first World Cup, with most amateur players would be crushed and humiliated by either Top 20 team, without any contemplation. But in soccer, with a low-risk and a strong defense, you can get decent results, in rugby is impossible for that to happen by the characteristics of our sport. In rugby you have to defend 70 meters wide and also your opponents can make points to many feet away from your posts (drops and penalties). In football you must defend only 7 meters wide, the goal-line and also has a special player dedicated to defending that small portion of the field (the goalkeeper)

In 2010 New Zealand went undefeated in the WC with a group of Paraguay, Slavakia and Italy (we actually finished ahead of Italy :lol:) and we're currently ranked 131 by FIFA.
 

Larksea

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yeah and the All Blacks are not just the best rugby team on the planet. They are the most dominant sporting franchise in top level sport period! Winning ~90% of games and holding every trophy they contest in the sport. the best football teams like Brazil & Spain probably only win 50-60% of games.

I enjoyed the game. US stayed in touch for a while and put some pressure on the AB's which was good! Then it blew out before the US managed to stem the flow of points. You would expect the players learned from the experience.

As far as the AB's went. most notable thing for me was how good SBW was. His passing, tackling and even the bit of work he did at the rucks was spot on and he showed impressive speed. This was noting like when he first came to union, it really looked like he'd never left. nice combo with Crotty as well.

And really gutted for Haris as well. Was an important tour not just for him personally but for the development of a 3rd hooker.
 

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In 2010 New Zealand went undefeated in the WC with a group of Paraguay, Slavakia and Italy (we actually finished ahead of Italy :lol:) and we're currently ranked 131 by FIFA.

That's what I mean, football is a very unfair sport, the best doesn't always win. For the characteristics of the sport, with low risk and a strong defense, a team #100 of the FIFA ranking can beat a Top 10 team. Rugby is a much more fair sport and the results are more predictable.

For example: Uruguay is #19 at the IRB ranking. They will play against: Fiji #12, Wales #6 and Australia #4 in the next WC. We all know that they will be ruthlessly crushed, they could come to receive more than 100 points in some game like in WC 2003 against England.

Not to mention what would happen if a team like Paraguay (#38 IRB ranking) ranks a WC and should play against ABs. Not only will receive 200 points, their players could leave the field in wheelchairs :p because of the VAST physical differences between the teams.
 
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spuitpoep

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So does that mean that a team that is only slightly better in rugby will beat the lesser 90% of the time? Does that mean south africa could be practically equal to new zealand?
 

admartian

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That's what I mean, football is a very unfair sport, the best doesn't always win. For the characteristics of the sport, with low risk and a strong defense, a team #100 of the FIFA ranking can beat a Top 10 team. Rugby is a much more fair sport and the results are more predictable.

For example: Uruguay is #19 at the IRB ranking. They will play against: Fiji #12, Wales #6 and Australia #4 in the next WC. We all know that they will be ruthlessly crushed, they could come to receive more than 100 points in some game like in WC 2003 against England.

Not to mention what would happen if a team like Paraguay (#38 IRB ranking) ranks a WC and should play against ABs. Not only will receive 200 points, their players could leave the field in wheelchairs :p because of the VAST physical differences between the teams.
Interesting thoguht.

I'd like to see a team like the USA try to "park the bus" in rugby - if it's even possible. I mean closest we've seen are Bok and English teams of past. But still, they were very good teams. Would like to see a 'lesser' team try it and succeed against bigger sides to test this. :)
 

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yeah and the All Blacks are not just the best rugby team on the planet. They are the most dominant sporting franchise in top level sport period! Winning ~90% of games and holding every trophy they contest in the sport. the best football teams like Brazil & Spain probably only win 50-60% of games.

I enjoyed the game. US stayed in touch for a while and put some pressure on the AB's which was good! Then it blew out before the US managed to stem the flow of points. You would expect the players learned from the experience.

As far as the AB's went. most notable thing for me was how good SBW was. His passing, tackling and even the bit of work he did at the rucks was spot on and he showed impressive speed. This was noting like when he first came to union, it really looked like he'd never left. nice combo with Crotty as well.

And really gutted for Haris as well. Was an important tour not just for him personally but for the development of a 3rd hooker.

Perhaps other similar examples are the Kangaroos in Rugby League and USA in basketball with the difference that USA is not interested in international basketball, they despise FIBA. For them the basketball world cup is the NBA. They never kept a solid team for international competitions, they are always changing lineups for competitions because most NBA players aren't interested in the international scene.

For example, the dream team of Barcelona 92, they only played five games together. After that, they didn't play together again even though in Atlanta 96 most of them were active and were even better than in 92. Their best players like Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant or Lebron James have a few caps with their national basketball team. In rugby the best players play more than 50 caps with their national teams easily. Even play more than 100 caps as BOD, Richie McCaw or George Gregan.
 
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jonny24

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It that the same NRFL that doesn't have anything off the ground yet?
 

Jaguares

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Interesting thoguht.

I'd like to see a team like the USA try to "park the bus" in rugby - if it's even possible. I mean closest we've seen are Bok and English teams of past. But still, they were very good teams. Would like to see a 'lesser' team try it and succeed against bigger sides to test this. :)

That's exactly what I'm saying, in rugby you can't "park the bus", due the nature of our sport. First you have to defend more ground, in rugby you have to defend 70 meters wide, in football you have to defend only the goal line, 7 meters. That's 10 times more land to defend in rugby than football. Also when you have possession in football, you can hold the ball, you can waste time. In rugby is more difficult to waste time because possession is always in dispute: set pieces and rucks.

And when you have possession, you can only kick forward or go back, then you are forced to attack. In football thanks to its permissive rules you are not forced to attack and you can waste time and then get a win through the penalty shoot-out. So rugby is more predictable than the football but at the same time is fairer than football.
 
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ProgrssvThinker

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Perhaps other similar examples are the Kangaroos in Rugby League and USA in basketball with the difference that USA is not interested in international basketball, they despise FIBA. For them the basketball world cup is the NBA. They never kept a solid team for international competitions, they are always changing lineups for competitions because most NBA players aren't interested in the international scene.

For example, the dream team of Barcelona 92, they only played five games together. After that, they didn't play together again even though in Atlanta 96 most of them were active and were even better than in 92. Their best players like Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant or Lebron James have a few caps with their national basketball team. In rugby the best players play more than 50 caps with their national teams easily. Even play more than 100 caps as BOD, Richie McCaw or George Gregan.

You're right about that. Main problem with USA Basketball is lack of playing time and working together. Prior to Coach K and Jerry Colangelo at the helm, all USAB did was put a bunch of players together and go to the games. With the failures of the 2002 WC and 2004 OG - 6th and 3rd place - USAB changed its approach going forward. Coach K had a training camp and selected players that would work well together. The US still lost in 2006, but Coach K admitted that he didn't study the other teams like he does in college. Ever since then, not only does the US have a training camp before each major competition, but opponents are also studied and analyzed. USAB is also building a $350M training facility in Tempe and moving away from CO springs (USOTC). Main players won't play in FIBA tournaments, but will in the olympics. That will be the way going forward for USA Basketball.

August next year Leicester will play a National Rugby Football League XV.

http://www.leicestertigers.com/news/21028.php#.VFnfQhEqUdU

NRFL is finally showing some signs, but I'm still very, very skeptical.

Stadium venue will be revealed prior to the next combine (so before January 2015). August 2015 is the Independence game and 2016 (presumably Spring 2016) is when the inaugural season kicks off.
 

admartian

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That's exactly what I'm saying, in rugby you can't "park the bus", due the nature of our sport. First you have to defend more ground, in rugby you have to defend 70 meters wide, in football you have to defend only the goal line, 7 meters. That's 10 times more land to defend in rugby than football. Also when you have possession in football, you can hold the ball, you can waste time. In rugby is more difficult to waste time because possession is always in dispute: set pieces and rucks.

And when you have possession, you can only kick forward or go back, then you are forced to attack. In football thanks to its permissive rules you are not forced to attack and you can waste time and then get a win through the penalty shoot-out. So rugby is more predictable than the football but at the same time is fairer than football.
While this is true (soccer less space to defend etc, and rugby possession is always in dispute) - i believe there is more chance to get a freak screamer of a goal against a team parking a bus, than it is getting the equivalent in rugby.

I mean, yeah, you can get a Savea/Folau/Lomu type of player and break half a team's tackles. But that is very unlikely especially if the team is tightly defending.


But yeah, good points. :)
 

ratsapprentice

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Other than just booting the leather off everything, I'm not quite sure how you can really park the bus in rugby?
 

admartian

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Other than just booting the leather off everything, I'm not quite sure how you can really park the bus in rugby?
I agree - would be interesting to see how somene might try thoguh.


I guess 100% emphasis on defence, marking, chemistry/positioning in training and in games; and recycling possession and waste time by booting etc. I think Dagg is the perfect Fullback to employ this tactic. Big boot and pin them back in their own half, and hold them there.


Would like to see what he interpretation of this would be in rugby. :)
 

Jaguares

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While this is true (soccer less space to defend etc, and rugby possession is always in dispute) - i believe there is more chance to get a freak screamer of a goal against a team parking a bus, than it is getting the equivalent in rugby.

I mean, yeah, you can get a Savea/Folau/Lomu type of player and break half a team's tackles. But that is very unlikely especially if the team is tightly defending.


But yeah, good points. :)

The closest example of "park the bus" in rugby I saw in the last years was the quarter-final between NZ vs Argentina in WC 2011. We defended during ALL the game, although we made a try in the first half. We were the first team in many years that didn't receive a try by ABs in a first half (I don't remember how many years was the record) and still we were defeated in the last 20 minutes:


Not many rugby teams can withstand the NZ attacks during 60/70 minutes. Maybe 6 teams: South Africa, Australia, England, France, Ireland, Wales and Argentina. Any other team would be crushed by ABs in the first half TBH. Therefore in rugby is impossible to park the bus like in football.

Few weeks ago a team called Deportivo Capiatá (from Paraguay), which was founded in 2008, defeated Boca Juniors in La Bombonera Stadium (Boca Stadium). The Paraguayans just defended all the game, they parked the bus on his own goal line and they won through an own goal. That's the same as the Uruguayan champion (Carrasco Polo) beating to European Champion (Toulon), only with parking the bus and a strong defense. That's impossible to happen in rugby. If Carrasco Polo has the opportunity to face Toulon, they will be crushed and will receive no less than 60 points, with any tactic, because is rugby. In football they would have a chance.

Rugby rules requires to the teams to attack, Do you have possession? Then you MUST attack, the rules don't help you to waste time. That's why differences between a big rugby team and a small rugby team are so notorious, even though you're a small team with amateur players and you are playing against Crusaders, you MUST attack because that's rugby, always go forward. Inevitably you will be crushed if you're not good enough, to beat your opponent you should attack them, then there are few surprises in rugby, few unpredictable results.
 
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welshglory

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Parking the bus has been Munster's main tactic for the past 10 years or so...
 

dasNdanger

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you MUST attack because that's rugby...

"Round and round, attack, attack...like angry ants..."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kClH4rSuG00


Let's face it - a team has to park the bus AND 'drive the bus'. Against a team like the ABs an opponent has to have a strong defensive line (that's where the Eagles failed), as well as a good attacking game.

When the Eagles had possession they had a good attack, but once the ABs got that ball and started scoring it was all downhill from there. Had the Eagles 'parked the bus' long enough (or well enough) to force a turnover and gain possession, then maybe we would have seen a more balanced game. That's the big thing I see between two unevenly matched teams - the weaker team just can't seem to establish a defensive wall, and the attacking teams just runs away with the game.

The good thing for the Eagles is that they have a lot of footage to watch to see where their defensive holes are. I've gone to some amateur rugby club games and even on the amateur level it's the defense that fails. Rugby players/teams - good or bad - know how to attack, it's always the defense they need to work on. I've long wondered if maybe teams should consider taking on uglier fullbacks - maybe then they won't sacrifice a score for the sake of their face.

;)



das
 
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ratsapprentice

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I guess it's relative to time-slot and the channel's regular numbers... i.e. 5million viewers for nbc at primetime wont rate as highly as 5million viewers of nbc at 3am on a monday.
 

dasNdanger

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The Nielsen rating system in the US is horrible, so inaccurate. However, it does give an estimate of what viewership was. I believe it's based on viewing households (about 115 mil), but not every channel is available in every household, so I think that affects numbers.

I am guessing a .7 rating translates into 1.5-2.5 million viewers - or, maybe just households. It may be hard to tell actual viewers because in many cases this match may have been viewed by groups of people gathered in someone's house, and if that house doesn't have a Nielsen hook-up, then all those viewers do not get counted.

das
 

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