Wasted talent XV

[Duck a l'Orange]

Someone's got to have said Lomu?

Definitive talent but crippled by kidney problems.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Someone's got to have said Lomu?

Definitive talent but crippled by kidney problems.

63 caps most starting scored 37 tries.

2 World Cup appearances.

Most tries in the rugby World Cup.

Pretty much agreed by most to be the best winger ever (at least top 3).

Hardly wasted.

 

[Jaguares]

Nasi Manu and DJ Forbes shouldn't be on that list.

Why?

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

63 caps most starting scored 37 tries.

2 World Cup appearances.

Most tries in the rugby World Cup.

Pretty much agreed by most to be the best winger ever (at least top 3).

Hardly wasted.

But could have had so much more/performed even better. Wasn't he on dialysis between matches at the 1999 RWC? Got to have had some effect. Certainly cut short his career

 

[nickdnz]

But could have had so much more/performed even better. Wasn't he on dialysis between matches at the 1999 RWC? Got to have had some effect. Certainly cut short his career

Christian Cullen had retired from the All Blacks by the age of 26 with knee injuries.

You could possibly argue that they didn't achieve what they could have achieved had injuries/health not affected them - but I think Lomu scoring 15 tries in RWCs, and Cullen scoring 46 tries in 58 tests - means the world pretty much got to see them play to their potential and be considered two of the best players in the history of the game. I don't put them alongside Caucaunibuca as an example - a clearly talented and amazing player who will probably not be remembered as an icon of the game - but rather a cult figure who didn't have a legendary career despite the talent to have one.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

DJ Forbes
Santiago Gomez Cora
Nicolas Bruzzone
Sitaleki Timani
Nasi Manu

Nasi Manu and DJ Forbes shouldn't be on that list.

agreed re nasi, the problem is not sure why, deserved a shot at the AB's

kiwi's right with DJ Forbes though, he chose 7's so far from wasted

 

[CaliRa1]

Why?

They shouldn't be on this list because as a 15s player Forbes wasn't on par with ABs quality and Manu continues to be overlooked and in turn is looking for other avenues to International Rugby
I believe Manu to be on par with Vito in talent and form and continue to be disappointed that the NZRU haven't found a way to keep NZ grown young talent from serving other nations
Junior ABS would be most welcomed by many ABs supporters
Nasi Manu Elliot Dixon Brendon O'Connor Luke Braid Josh Bekhuis Joe Wheeler just to name a few w/out a AB cap to their name that deserve recognition
Anscombe and Maitland are some names that have defected
Quade Cooper was shunned by the NZRU

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Christian Cullen had retired from the All Blacks by the age of 26 with knee injuries.

You could possibly argue that they didn't achieve what they could have achieved had injuries/health not affected them - but I think Lomu scoring 15 tries in RWCs, and Cullen scoring 46 tries in 58 tests - means the world pretty much got to see them play to their potential and be considered two of the best players in the history of the game. I don't put them alongside Caucaunibuca as an example - a clearly talented and amazing player who will probably not be remembered as an icon of the game - but rather a cult figure who didn't have a legendary career despite the talent to have one.

I suppose for the purposes of the thread you're correct- but how can you argue that someone who retired at 26, with at least another four years in them, didn't have some wasted talent?

But not as much as others- fair play.

 

[CaliRa1]

Joeli Vidiri a more complete Winger than Lomu
Same health issues

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Rupeni Caucaunibuca by far the top of this list

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Quite a few of the NZ guys have already been covered, but just to reiterate the ones I can remember from recent times (in no particular order):

Richard Kahui (18 caps)
Rene Ranger (6)
Rico Gear (20)
Hosea Gear (15)
Isaia Toeava (37)
Nick Evans (16) - criminal
Luke McAlister (31)
Tamati Ellison (5)
Aled de Malmanche (5)
James Ryan (9)
Jason Eaton (17)
Marty Holah (31)
Brendon Leonard (14)
Sione Lauaki (17)
Regan King (1)
Keith Robinson (12)
Roger Randle

Who the heck is Paul Steinmetz??

Those guys go in the overlooked category

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Wasted Talent XV this ***le confuses me when I read some of these posts

Should've Had More International Caps XV
-Injury Related
-Management Related
-Number 1s were more favoured or slightly better
-Should've played 15s instead of 7s to see how talented they really were/are
-Definitely not form or talent based

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Dave Hewett made his provincial debut at the ripe age of 26
Only made 22 appearances between 2001 & 2003
He was good quality up front
Would've been good to see him and Craig Dowd in the ABs front row

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Doug Howlett 62 Caps 49 Tries
Jonah Lomu 63 Caps 37 Tries
Joeli Vidiri 2 Caps 1 Try
Christian Cullen 58 Caps 46 Tries
Jeff Wilson 60 Caps 44 Tries
Rico Gear 19 Caps 11 Tries
Caleb Ralph 14 Caps 9 Tries

Each of these guys could've made more appearances but they were all playing in the same era and probably kept each other from making more
99 Cullens only RWC was kept out of the #15 jersey in favour of Wilson to accommodate the rise of Tana Umaga on the wing, and so had to settle for #13

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Carlos Spencer playing behind the favoured Mehrtens should've/could've had more caps had the Souh African born Mehrtens not been so good with ball in hand. Mehrtens was the more efficient and consistent of the 2 IMO

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The rise of Sivivatu definitely slowed Rokocoko's progression towards being the Top try scorer of all-time
Sivivatu slightly edged Rokocoko overall and was slotted on the Left Side-the ABs favoured attacking side which shifted Rokocoko over to the Right with a 3 way battle for that Jersey with Rico Gear & Doug Howlett

 

[WelshDragon99]

1 - Corbisiero - Injuries
2 - Hibbard - only 38 caps for a test Lion
3 - Johnson - only 47 caps for one of the consistent best props in world rugby
4 - Leo Cullen - only 32 caps
5 - Dean Mumm - only 36 caps but seems to be back in the frame
6 - Armittage - obvious one
7 - Brussouw - 27 caps for a world class back rower
8 - Duane Vermuelen - only 29 caps for one of the world's best eights is criminal
9 - Hougaard - only 35 caps for an excellent player who is also very versatile
10 - Nick Evans - in the shadow of your Carters etc
11 - Hosea Gear - 14 caps?!
12 - Henson - largely through injury and fault of his own
13 - Rene Ranger - a move to France didn't help but also in shadow of Smith etc
14 - Nemani Nadolo - only 19 caps for Fiji
15 - Liam Williams - far better at 15 than wing but in shadow of Halfpenny

 

[dragos03]

Here are some wasted talents among Romanian players (you probably never heard of most of them):
- Mihai Adascalitei (prop/hooker) - excellent in the scrum and the loose. Got suspended for life after beating up team mate Andrei Radoi while training with the Bucharest Oaks. Was pardoned after two years and eventually made it back to the national team but his career was severely affected.
- Radu Basalau (prop) - considered the best prop of his generation, better than Bogdan Balan or Paulica Ion. He was forced to quit rugby at 25 years old due to a spinal problem.
- Petre Mitu (scrum half) - one of the best backs ever produced by Romania, only got 41 caps due to a dispute with the union.
- Dorin Manole (fly half) - a rare talent on a critical position for the Oaks. He never wanted to become a full-time pro and spent his career as a semi-pro in Federale 2. Rarely available for the national team due to work commitments, the coaches could never count on him as a starter.
- Madalin Lemnaru (wing) - still a very good player, a long string of injuries prevented him from reaching his true potential.
- Catalin Fercu (fullback/wing) - brilliant attacking player, his difficult character and fear of flying made him reject several offers from top European clubs in his youth. He eventually signed for the Saracens but he is not young any more. Has an impressive record at the national team but he missed the 2011 RWC because he was scared of the long flight to NZ. Little known in Western Europe because Romania has barely played any Tier 1 tests during his career, he still can make an impression during this RWC.

 

[Halld1]

15 - Olly Morgan

 

[TRF_heineken]

I suppose for the purposes of the thread you're correct- but how can you argue that someone who retired at 26, with at least another four years in them, didn't have some wasted talent?

But not as much as others- fair play.

Is it really wasted talent when he retires because of an ongoing injury?

He clearly felt that he didn't have four more quality years in him, so it's not really wasting talent as much as conserving the reputation and talent that he already showed. Retirement shouldn't be used as wasting talent.

Not being selected for whatever reason due to coaching preferences/eligibility/contractual issues should be used as the reason for the talent being wasted. If a player retires it shows that he is not up for showing his talent anymore, and in my mind he's not wasting it.

Look at a guy like Frik Kirsten who played for the Bulls. At age 22 he had to retire due to Neck problems. We haven't even got a chance to see his talent...

 

[FrenchFan]

Reading round these pages about guys like Sireli Bobo and Frans Steyn got me thinking who has the international game missed for the majority or best of their careers through whatever reason.

1
2 Schalk Brits / Craig Burden
3 Carl Hayman
4
5
6 Rocky Elsom
7 Steffon Armitage / Heinrich Brussow
8
9 Rory Kockott
10 Nick Evans
11 Sireli Bobo
12 Frans Steyn
13 Richard Kahui / what was that Auckland Blues utility back's name again?..
14 Rene Ranger
15 Isa Nacewa / Delon Armitage / Nick Abendanon

.. I se I'll have to think about a few and get back here. Who am I forgetting off the top of my head?

Frans Steyn at ~50 odd caps is possibly a strecth but in the modern era 50 caps in 10 years isn't lot as he has missed a lot of time in a green jersey. I could then add both Willem Alberts and Duane Vermeulen who had criminally long been overlooked... this might get tricky. Ben Smith on 40 caps at 29 could make this list then also.. Hmm. And I havn't even considered NH players so much yet apart from the obvious English ones at Toulon.

Very appropriate thread ATM. You can also include the following:

Première ligne : Uini Atonio, Eddy Ben Arous, Vincent Debaty, Nicolas Mas, Rabah Slimani, Guilhem Guirado, Benjamin Kayser, Dimitri Szarzewski
Deuxième ligne : Alexandre Flanquart, Yoann Maestri, Pascal Papé
Troisième ligne : Thierry Dusautoir, Bernard Le Roux, Yannick Nyanga, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Damien Chouly, Louis Picamoles
Demis de mêlée : Rory Kockott, Morgan Parra, Sébastien Tillous-Borde
Ouvreurs : Frédéric Michalak, Rémi Tales
Trois quarts : Mathieu Bastareaud, Alexandre Dumoulin, Gaël Fickou, Wesley Fofana, Brice Dulin, Sofiane Guitoune, Yoann Huget, Noa Nakaitaci, Scott Spedding

+FTD Lopez Plisson Machenaud Medard Mermoz Thomas

 

[TobesHodges]

Rupeni Caucaunibuca (Top 3 all time greatest winger)

 

[Umaga's Witness]

SBW was pretty awesome just before he left to go back to league. he is now nowhere near as good as he was.
Jonah Lomu was sick for his whole career.
Carl Hayman is the most extreme example though in my books.

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pier spies

 

[CaliRa1]

Very appropriate thread ATM. You can also include the following:

Première ligne : Uini Atonio, Eddy Ben Arous, Vincent Debaty, Nicolas Mas, Rabah Slimani, Guilhem Guirado, Benjamin Kayser, Dimitri Szarzewski
Deuxième ligne : Alexandre Flanquart, Yoann Maestri, Pascal Papé
Troisième ligne : Thierry Dusautoir, Bernard Le Roux, Yannick Nyanga, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Damien Chouly, Louis Picamoles
Demis de mêlée : Rory Kockott, Morgan Parra, Sébastien Tillous-Borde
Ouvreurs : Frédéric Michalak, Rémi Tales
Trois quarts : Mathieu Bastareaud, Alexandre Dumoulin, Gaël Fickou, Wesley Fofana, Brice Dulin, Sofiane Guitoune, Yoann Huget, Noa Nakaitaci, Scott Spedding

+FTD Lopez Plisson Machenaud Medard Mermoz Thomas

Are we just going to name the squads for the RWC?

 

[CaliRa1]

Wyatt Crockett & Carl Hayman in the front row would've been beastly

 

[TobesHodges]

Robert Ebersohn!