Offensive Team Names

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

"Please know the NCAI is committed to working with the Exeter Rugby Club to aid in its mascot branding transition, including offering a tribal leader to share with your leadership, club members, and/or the Exeter community our perspective on this important issue."

Honestly great offer for Exeter
Gives them good PR and also potentially gives them a foothold in America

I thought it was a very reasonable letter TBH.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I made a similar argument to some people who were upset about the crusaders logo/name issue

we have two groups that are offended/upset

The first believes that native american culture has been appropriated/trivialised/monetised, the most recent insult in a long list of insults (and worse) over a couple of hundred years

The second group is gumpy their favouritist sports team might have to change their their logo.....

but yeah...its the first group who are the snowflakes

 

[Wasps92]

I’m far from woke and this sort of stuff tends to do my head in to be honest, however why a club from Devon decided to use Native American imagery does baffle me.

I’m not a fan of names like Bears, Tigers and Falcons either to be honest, I think it’s rather tacky. I much prefer just plain old Gloucester Rugby and Bath Rugby, but maybe that’s just because I’m a bore.

 

[Nubiwan]

I’m far from woke and this sort of stuff tends to do my head in to be honest, however why a club from Devon decided to use Native American imagery does baffle me.

I’m not a fan of names like Bears, Tigers and Falcons either to be honest, I think it’s rather tacky. I much prefer just plain old Gloucester Rugby and Bath Rugby, but maybe that’s just because I’m a bore.

Agree with this......

As for Wasps. Now is that standing for what I think it stands for? Or, did someone just get stung - a lot?

 

[Quel Carreleur]

From what I recall, Tigers, Saints, Wasps and Harlequins names go way back to the 19th century, in the very early years of the clubs, and have non-commercial origins. Those ones seem fine to me.

IIRC Tigers had links with the local regiment who were nicknamed the "tigers".
Saints were set up by a priest, and named after his church.
Harlequins and Wasps were set up when another club split into association football and 2 rugby football clubs. Was it Hampstead? The rugby members agreed to meet at a pub and thrash out the details but wanted to keep the initials, flicked through a dictionary under "H" and thought "Harlequins" sounded fun. Other rugby members went to the wrong pub, and got drunk instead of trying to find the right one, and ultimately set up Wasps - I've no idea why.

All the others, like Chiefs, Shoguns, Bears, Bees etc were all marketing gimmicks to appeal to new young fans who might support a team because its name rather than its play or location (I gather this is an actual thing over the pond - and I guess people often pick horses that way for the Grand National etc). It's always been tacky and cheesey.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I always presumed Wasps got their name from playing in black and yelllow hoops back in the day

 

[Quel Carreleur]

I always presumed Wasps got their name from playing in black and yelllow hoops back in the day

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I thought they picked wasps as it was seen as a very ‘trendy’ animal back when they were formed? No other reason.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

a trendy animal?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

a trendy animal?

Yeah like popular, I’ll see if I can find anything online about it.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Yeah like popular, I’ll see if I can find anything online about it.

yeah, sorry, i know what "trendy" means, just hadn;t come across trendy animals before

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

yeah, sorry, i know what "trendy" means, just hadn;t come across trendy animals before

I googled it and remembered it incorrectly anyhow (sorry).

It says that wasps picked wasps because it was a trendy practise to name clubs after insects. So I was nearly there.

The name goes back to the Victorian era though.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Can’t get my head around how Exeter are behaving about this. At the end of the day they need to shut up and listen to the people who it is actually offending. The people it effects. To double down in this way should be criminal in this day and age and shows how little they actually care about their concerns and would rather placate the racists in their fan base.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Can’t get my head around how Exeter are behaving about this. At the end of the day they need to shut up and listen to the people who it is actually offending. The people it effects. To double down in this way should be criminal in this day and age and shows how little they actually care about their concerns and would rather placate the racists in their fan base.

Don't get me wrong, I've lost any fondness that I had for the club, but the more I think about it, it seems clear to me that the club are doing what they think is best for their business. Purely in terms of pound notes, what approach would you advocate? I assume that they're worried about alienating a proportion of their customer base by making changes and are mitigating that risk by waiting until they're told to change by someone else with the power to do so.
I've always said that they should have recognised that change is inevitable, made it as soon as possible and taken a PR win, but can understand that that approach would have come with the risk of losing customers (what business wouldn't be worried about making a change that they know will upset a significant portion of their customer base?) Now that any sort of good PR ship has sailed and the club has made it clear that they don't care about minority groups / racism, what would they gain by changing before they're forced?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Don't get me wrong, I've lost any fondness that I had for the club, but the more I think about it, it seems clear to me that the club are doing what they think is best for their business. Purely in terms of pound notes, what approach would you advocate? I assume that they're worried about alienating a proportion of their customer base by making changes and are mitigating that risk by waiting until they're told to change by someone else with the power to do so.
I've always said that they should have recognised that change is inevitable, made it as soon as possible and taken a PR win, but can understand that that approach would have come with the risk of losing customers (what business wouldn't be worried about making a change that they know will upset a significant portion of their customer base?) Now that any sort of good PR ship has sailed and the club has made it clear that they don't care about minority groups / racism, what would they gain by changing before they're forced?

Yeah this is a fair point but I look at it from a very naive point of view in that they should do what’s right not what’s right for the business. I’d also say that perhaps these 2 things aren’t at odds with each other either. You can do the right thing for your pocket and morally you just have to be a bit creative in how you spin it but as you rightly point out that ship has sailed now.

I don’t know enough about Exeter’s support but I like to think the majority would get behind it but I could be way off on that.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I don’t know enough about Exeter’s support but I like to think the majority would get behind it but I could be way off on that.

It's an English rugby club in a non-ethnicly diverse area! I can't claim to be an expert, my opinion is based on tmy knowledge of the area, a look around me on the terraces the last time I attended and a look on Twitter.

Had they got in early and swapped the branding for something along the lines of the Celtic one that's doing the round on social media, there's a much better chance that it would have gone down well. Now that this issue has been seized on by the sort of idiots who have graduated from "political correctness gone mad" to "woke", "snowflake" and "leftwaffle", any sort of climb down is going to go down poorly with that faction, which I'm guessing is significant within the fan base.

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's an English rugby club in a non-ethnicly diverse area! I can't claim to be an expert, my opinion is based on tmy knowledge of the area, a look around me on the terraces the last time I attended and a look on Twitter.

Had they got in early and swapped the branding for something along the lines of the Celtic one that's doing the round on social media, there's a much better chance that it would have gone down well. Now that this issue has been seized on by the sort of idiots who have graduated from "political correctness gone mad" to "woke", "snowflake" and "leftwaffle", any sort of climb down is going to go down poorly with that faction, which I'm guessing is significant within the fan base.

Yeah I can’t say I find what you’ve said there disagreeable.

I guess it’s about levels. Like with most things you get varying degrees of how entrenched some people are.

Talking about Exeter I guess you could say you have a really entrenched section of the fan base (the type to go all dressed in headdresses and do the chant non stop) then you have another section that don’t do that but don’t have a problem with it, then you have a section who don’t do that and are indifferent towards it, another section who don’t do it and don’t like what the more hardcore fans are doing but keep quiet and then you have some fans (a imagine a small minority) who actively dislike the approach the club is taking and are vocal about it. Maybe even some that are being turned away from the club. Maybe potential young customers they are losing out on who’ll go onto support other clubs or not bother with the sport all together.

Goes without saying I have no idea of the split is between these groups for all I know it could be that none of them have a problem with it but I find that hard to believe but maybe it is only like 10% of people that have even the slightest problem with it all but, personally, I’d be reaching out to my customers with surveys and the like (have they done this?) to try and get a grasp of the feeling in the support base as things like this are usually pretty nuanced and rarely black and white.

 

[Welsh Exile]

On a side note I heard swing low was in full flow at Twickenham when I had the game on in the background over the weekend. I find it hard to grasp why they’re still singing it with such vigour when Itoje has himself come out and said it makes him feel uncomfortable.

 

[Wasps92]

Can’t get my head around how Exeter are behaving about this. At the end of the day they need to shut up and listen to the people who it is actually offending. The people it effects. To double down in this way should be criminal in this day and age and shows how little they actually care about their concerns and would rather placate the racists in their fan base.

In my opinion the change of name is inevitable, so I wouldn’t drag it out. Better to rip the band aid off now so to speak.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

On a side note I heard swing low was in full flow at Twickenham when I had the game on in the background over the weekend. I find it hard to grasp why they’re still singing it with such vigour when Itoje has himself come out and said it makes him feel uncomfortable.

What’s wrong with swing low?

 

[Wasps92]

What’s wrong with swing low?

It has links to slavery as far as I’m aware.

Personally I’d prefer the fans to sing Jerusalem over swing low, I’ve been hoping that it would take off for some time.

In fact if I had my way I’d scrap GTSQ before kick off and use Jerusalem instead.

 

[Welsh Exile]

What’s wrong with swing low?

In short, and there’s probably people on here more knowledgeable than me, but its due to the songs roots in slavery and it’s origins of essentially being a slave song. It has drawn criticism from African American individuals and groups over the last few years, much in the same way Exeter has with Native Americans. This has been picked up on and off over the last few years but got more traction in the press last year IIRC, to the point where Itoje commented on it. I believe the RFU response was not to ban it but rather to try and inform people so that they don’t want to sing it any more.

 

[ncurd]

In my opinion the change of name is inevitable, so I wouldn’t drag it out. Better to rip the band aid off now so to speak.

The weird part is no one is calling for a name change as this argument has developed. Its a very specific complaint against Native American imagery.

I think they will have to name change now though just to wash off the stink.


Interesting Which Tyler bough up Bristol Shoguns due to their sponsorship by Mitsubishi that would an incredible tangle worms. Come across it myself and lets just say the Japanese are very divided on cultural appropriation.

 

[ncurd]

What’s wrong with swing low?

Just to add that whilst there's romanticism into why it started being sung it's been suggested those people weren't exactly pure of heart. Sadly.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Don't get me wrong, I've lost any fondness that I had for the club, but the more I think about it, it seems clear to me that the club are doing what they think is best for their business. Purely in terms of pound notes, what approach would you advocate? I assume that they're worried about alienating a proportion of their customer base by making changes and are mitigating that risk by waiting until they're told to change by someone else with the power to do so.
I've always said that they should have recognised that change is inevitable, made it as soon as possible and taken a PR win, but can understand that that approach would have come with the risk of losing customers (what business wouldn't be worried about making a change that they know will upset a significant portion of their customer base?) Now that any sort of good PR ship has sailed and the club has made it clear that they don't care about minority groups / racism, what would they gain by changing before they're forced?

i think most people would have advised to make the inevitable name or logo change quickly and make as little a deal around it as possible as the Crusaders did, a few months of grumbling but once they had another trophy under the new logo people move on, maybe not forgotten but you move on....digging their heels in will just make it a bigger problem when they do eventually fold

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

This is an honest story. Wasps were originally my favorite team cause I thought they were named after my people, then I learned the cold hearted truth.

 

[RedruthRFC]

i think most people would have advised to make the inevitable name or logo change quickly and make as little a deal around it as possible as the Crusaders did, a few months of grumbling but once they had another trophy under the new logo people move on, maybe not forgotten but you move on....digging their heels in will just make it a bigger problem when they do eventually fold

The really clever trick would have been not to have picked it in the first place. Their (then) strength coach is on record as saying that there were quite a few surprised / confused faces in the meeting when it was announced to the playing / support staff.

I tend to agree with your point, it could have been spun as a rebrand to celebrate their local heritage and strengthen their already strong ties to the local community and businesses. If it was done before most people were aware of the objections to their cultural misapropriation, I think it would have been taken as positive by an overwhelming majority of fans. However, as I said, the opportunity to do this has passed, rendering this is wisdom in hindsight and as such is useless. My point was about how best to manage the current situation now that they have created a bigger problem by ignoring / denying it rather than nipping it in the bud.

 

[ncurd]

My point was about how best to manage the current situation now that they have created a bigger problem by ignoring / denying it rather than nipping it in the bud.

This is the mess Yorkshire/ECB have gotten themselves into with Cricket. They tried to pretend it wasn't a real problem rather than listen and deal with it properly and now they are being dragged in front of MPs to explain themlseves.

This despite everything said isn't as bad as that but it will just grow into a bigger issue the longer they pretend there isn't one.

 

[RedruthRFC]

This is the mess Yorkshire/ECB have gotten themselves into with Cricket. They tried to pretend it wasn't a real problem rather than listen and deal with it properly and now they are being dragged in front of MPs to explain themlseves.

This despite everything said isn't as bad as that but it will just grow into a bigger issue the longer they pretend there isn't one.

I agree about Yorkshire. I'm not so sure about the second sentance though. What further bad outcomes for the club do you envisage the longer this is allowed to continue? My take is that now things have been allowed to get to the stage that we're at now, it would be a better result for the club (financially) to rebrand because they're told they have to than doing so of their own volition and risking losing customers who disagree with a rebrand and with the club bowing to the "woke brigade" (to use their parlance).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/news/exeter-rugby-club-statement
Sounds like they might actually be changing - looking forward to seeing how they cock it up massively