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Don't Skip Leg Day

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So do you believe that people won't be offended by things if they get some money? Or that they would actually sell items that are so highly respected in their culture (the headdress)? As I'd be interested to know if you think our servicemen and women would be fine with people buying and wearing copies of earned uniforms and medals that they fought and died for, as long as someone paid them?
The reason I asked was because in America/ Canada they do sell loads of that touristy stuff in areas (or at least they did when I lived there a while ago).

People dress as soldiers all the time in fancy dress, is that disrespectful? Looks at some of the ww2 crowd, they at their shows they wear all the medals and uniforms etc and everyone is fine with that.

I’m not saying either is right or wrong by the way but it’s funny it’s there is a culture we are saying is out of bounds.
 

Don't Skip Leg Day

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But it isn't so it's irrelevant though.
Exeter have been asked to at least reach out they are not.

The fact that it's a big thing in America and their sports teams proves it isn't a "modern liberal society"
America is very different from over here though, we both have very different views on things and I always viewed us as way more liberal than the Americans.
 

Don't Skip Leg Day

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Did you actually read anything before writing that utter nonsense?
It’s a discussion, if I’m not allowed to discuss counter points, what’s the point of the internet. They are valid discussion points, I’m not saying I believe them, just asking.
 

Which Tyler

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I have a slightly different but i still think relevant example

Maori culture is often abused, and that includes kiwis getting ****** and trying to do a haka whilst in some pub in london

we had a cool situation during the Super rugby final this year. we had Kazuki Himeno from japan playing for us this season and before the game the Highlanders did their Haka.

Rather than get offended...people loved the fact Himeno joined in as a member of the team, and thats because they got the relevant people in to teach the team how to do it and what it means

Mai FM is a radio station with a Maori focus, music/presenters etc and this was their post after the game (not a sports station, music), keep in mind his english was "passable" according to some of the team, let alone learning about Maori culture too

View attachment 12082

if you're going to do or use something from a culture thats not your own..its not hard to consult with those whos culture it is, and if you do the right things you'll often be celebrated for it like Himeno was

Tapu = sacred
manu = pride/power/presence
I see a mod has rehomed this - an excellent example of honouring rather than exploiting.
 

TRF_Olyy

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I have a slightly different but i still think relevant example

Maori culture is often abused, and that includes kiwis getting ****** and trying to do a haka whilst in some pub in london

we had a cool situation during the Super rugby final this year. we had Kazuki Himeno from japan playing for us this season and before the game the Highlanders did their Haka.

Rather than get offended...people loved the fact Himeno joined in as a member of the team, and thats because they got the relevant people in to teach the team how to do it and what it means

Mai FM is a radio station with a Maori focus, music/presenters etc and this was their post after the game (not a sports station, music), keep in mind his english was "passable" according to some of the team, let alone learning about Maori culture too

View attachment 12082

if you're going to do or use something from a culture thats not your own..its not hard to consult with those whos culture it is, and if you do the right things you'll often be celebrated for it like Himeno was

Tapu = sacred
manu = pride/power/presence
Great example, and shows the difference between the two situations
One (above) is someone honouring the culture, the other (Chiefs) is very much not

Tomahawk Chop isn't a native song, and isn't being used to honour the Native American spirit - it was made by a racist fraternity called the "Scalp Hunters" in America, was used at their American football games and then spread from there
Wearing headresses/war bonnets was reserved for the most powerful and influential members of tribes and it's considered disrespectful to wear them without earning them

The only thing that matters in this argument is that multiple native Americans/native American organisations have said that they find the imagery and songs offensive.
It's not up to some rugger buggers on the south coast of England to tell them they're wrong.
 

Which Tyler

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It’s a discussion, if I’m not allowed to discuss counter points, what’s the point of the internet. They are valid discussion points, I’m not saying I believe them, just asking.
You absolutely can, but it would be nice if it was presented as a discussion of counter points, rather than the asking of questions that had already been answered.
 

Old Hooker

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The only thing that matters in this argument is that multiple native Americans/native American organisations have said that they find the imagery and songs offensive.
Precisely.

Not the same situation but I assume that the Wasps fans also disapprove of the Saracens fez?
 

Which Tyler

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Not the same situation but I assume that the Wasps fans also disapprove of the Saracens fez?
As far as I'm aware (and I reserve the right to be wrong here), the Fez isn't particularly culturally sensitive / mystical / religious, and isn't venerated by any particular group with centuries of being on the shitty end of one-sided oppression / genocide / ethnic cleansing perpetrated to today.
Equally the Fez is not just one amongst a bunch of racist stereotypes/images and appropriated names/images exploited by Saracens. Saracens have generally preferred to piss people off by being generally obnoxious, "something special", "they're all against us", promoting themselves in other people's back yards and salary cap cheating (we really need a tongue-in-cheek emoji).
Thirdly, I think they've dropped pretty much all use of the Fez anyway.
Finally, and again this is "as far as I'm aware" - nobody with a cultural link to Fez wearing has complained about Saracens' use of it.
 

RedruthRFC

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Precisely.

Not the same situation but I assume that the Wasps fans also disapprove of the Saracens fez?
If it's not the same situation, why would you assume that? Unless I'm missing something, you appear to be agreeing that this is a problem because affected groups are offended, then suggesting that a situation that nobody has expressed a complaint about is also a problem.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Ah,now I see why it is flying.. couldn't see clearly on the video what was that.
That's deep.
 

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