A Political Thread pt. 2

[dirty harry]

Not really propaganda as such but strategy in a conflict. I still don’t see what that has to do with Trump unless America was engaged in a conflict and Trump was president. Ukraine is a much more relatable example to what he was talking about. Would you call that zero sum or a tragic (was that the word he used) conflict?

I mean I wouldn't say Ukraine was doing that, Zelensky definately though.

With regards to Trump, the previous quote of believing your opposition being done means you havnt done tour homework defo correlates, but realistically it's more of a broad statement really. The way Trump uses the media to make them look stupid, loosing their minds over non real events, it's just too regular to be coincidence lol. Media trust has vanished since 2016, it's not a coincidence.

Propaganda probably wasn't the right word, messaging is probably better.

I'd probably compare it to modern day 'Auditors' they bait people and police into questionable actions for content.

 

[Reiser99]

I don't know the answers to any of those questions really. I would've thought they could be in a position by now where they have effectively eradicated Hamas but what would come out of that is likely another Hamas/Islamic Jihad and round and round it goes.

In an ideal world the war finishes, Netenyahu goes to jail, out of the ashes of Gaza comes new leadership that wants to live side by side with Isreal and then out of that talks can begin where Isreal can make land concessions and a future can be planned but that is pie in the sky stuff so pointless thinking about really.

I'm not going to reply to harry. My issue is that eradicating Hamas has now become synonymous with wiping out or moving the Palestinian people off the land. All this war will have done is drive more people, especially younger people, to Hamas. Israel's response has been completely disproportionate to the Hamas attack. (Yes both are evil and it's not an excuse of Hamas's actions). On top Israel are the ones who have repeatedly broken any kind of ceasefire. They have driven the Palestinian people in Hamas's hands. Israel has now turned the majority of the world against, if not in public, then in private. Your ideal finish, for once I'm saying this and I am an idealist) is preposterous. Hamas are not going to disappear. Netanyahu is going to keep the war going as long as he can. Neither side truly wants peace, though I think at this stage Hamas would take it more than Israel. Israel is now committed to the complete occupation of Gaza under Netanyahu's government and for me, they are the biggest opponents to peace.

 

[AlRums]

I'm not going to reply to harry. My issue is that eradicating Hamas has now become synonymous with wiping out or moving the Palestinian people off the land. All this war will have done is drive more people, especially younger people, to Hamas. Israel's response has been completely disproportionate to the Hamas attack. (Yes both are evil and it's not an excuse of Hamas's actions). On top Israel are the ones who have repeatedly broken any kind of ceasefire. They have driven the Palestinian people in Hamas's hands. Israel has now turned the majority of the world against, if not in public, then in private. Your ideal finish, for once I'm saying this and I am an idealist) is preposterous. Hamas are not going to disappear. Netanyahu is going to keep the war going as long as he can. Neither side truly wants peace, though I think at this stage Hamas would take it more than Israel. Israel is now committed to the complete occupation of Gaza under Netanyahu's government and for me, they are the biggest opponents to peace.

100%, although you have to add the Israeli expansion into the illegally occupied west bank to displace Palestinians as well.

 

[AlRums]

Trump Administration Knew Vast Majority of Venezuelans Sent to Salvadoran Prison Had Not Been Convicted of U.S. Crimes

Homeland Security records reveal that officials knew that more than half of the 238 deportees were labeled as having no criminal record in the U.S. and had only violated immigration laws.

www.propublica.org

 

[Welsh Exile]

I mean I wouldn't say Ukraine was doing that, Zelensky definately though.

With regards to Trump, the previous quote of believing your opposition being done means you havnt done tour homework defo correlates, but realistically it's more of a broad statement really. The way Trump uses the media to make them look stupid, loosing their minds over non real events, it's just too regular to be coincidence lol. Media trust has vanished since 2016, it's not a coincidence.

Propaganda probably wasn't the right word, messaging is probably better.

I'd probably compare it to modern day 'Auditors' they bait people and police into questionable actions for content.

Yeah, I should've said to you in my initial response that I can maybe se the BLM comparison seeing as he was talking about MLK but for me he was talking very specifically about conflict. He started that last bit with saying "There are 2 types of conflicts, Zero sum and Tragic" or whatever the word is (I should watch it back) and then talked about MLK in the context of a conflict. I suppose you could argue him on the word conflict and say well, there's a reason it was called the civil rights "movement" but IMO the civil rights movement led by MLK isn't that comparable to the BLM "movement" though obviously racial injustice being the core tenant of each thing.

It's why I mentioned Ukraine as that is an out and out conflict. Trump or any political shenanigans I don't think applies to what he was talking about.

Trump uses division as his main weapon in the media really. That wasn't really MLK's MO like it is with Trump.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm not going to reply to harry. My issue is that eradicating Hamas has now become synonymous with wiping out or moving the Palestinian people off the land. All this war will have done is drive more people, especially younger people, to Hamas. Israel's response has been completely disproportionate to the Hamas attack. (Yes both are evil and it's not an excuse of Hamas's actions). On top Israel are the ones who have repeatedly broken any kind of ceasefire. They have driven the Palestinian people in Hamas's hands. Israel has now turned the majority of the world against, if not in public, then in private. Your ideal finish, for once I'm saying this and I am an idealist) is preposterous. Hamas are not going to disappear. Netanyahu is going to keep the war going as long as he can. Neither side truly wants peace, though I think at this stage Hamas would take it more than Israel. Israel is now committed to the complete occupation of Gaza under Netanyahu's government and for me, they are the biggest opponents to peace.

I don't disagree with a lot of that. I did say my ideal is pie in the sky.

Hamas, or groups like them don't look likely to disappear anytime soon and the Jews aren't going anywhere either.

 

[General Melchett]

Has anyone noticed that whenever Netanyahu is under real pressure, innocent Israeli people mysteriously die and Israel having the right to defend itself and antisemitism become front and centre again? He has controlled the narrative for years and people continually buy his shite. I'm not saying he is responsible for inside jobs but I do believe that he has (in the shadows) baited Hamas into responding and has deliberately lowered Israel's guard at certain times to let these attacks happen. The Egyptian leader warned him about October 7th and he ignored it - a year out from the American election when Biden was peak lame duck. The timing couldn't have been better.

Hamas are evil scum who should be eradicated but the idea of Netanyahu being the one to liberate Palestinians from them is ridiculous given that he has made Gaza an open air prison and sponsored Jewish settlers into murdering and displacing innocent Palestinians in the West Bank. I have no loyalty to either side but I have heard enough politically neutral aid organisation leaders comment on what is happening on the ground. America is fully complicit in enabling Netanyahu's illegal expansionist policy and Iran & Qatar are also complicit for sponsoring and harbouring Hamas leadership. All of these countries deserve massive criticism.

I remember when my brother and I used to fight over a toy or the remote control when we were kids and my Dad's solution was "well if you can't agree then neither of you deserve it" and we both did without. I feel the same about Hamas and this Israeli Government. Both have had plenty chances to find solutions diplomatically and neither deserve to be in power.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Has anyone noticed that whenever Netanyahu is under real pressure, innocent Israeli people mysteriously die and Israel having the right to defend itself and antisemitism become front and centre again? He has controlled the narrative for years and people continually buy his shite. I'm not saying he is responsible for inside jobs but I do believe that he has (in the shadows) baited Hamas into responding and has deliberately lowered Israel's guard at certain times to let these attacks happen. The Egyptian leader warned him about October 7th and he ignored it - a year out from the American election when Biden was peak lame duck. The timing couldn't have been better.

Hamas are evil scum who should be eradicated but the idea of Netanyahu being the one to liberate Palestinians from them is ridiculous given that he has made Gaza an open air prison and sponsored Jewish settlers into murdering and displacing innocent Palestinians in the West Bank. I have no loyalty to either side but I have heard enough politically neutral aid organisation leaders comment on what is happening on the ground. America is fully complicit in enabling Netanyahu's illegal expansionist policy and Iran & Qatar are also complicit for sponsoring and harbouring Hamas leadership. All of these countries deserve massive criticism.

I remember when my brother and I used to fight over a toy or the remote control when we were kids and my Dad's solution was "well if you can't agree then neither of you deserve it" and we both did without. I feel the same about Hamas and this Israeli Government. Both have had plenty chances to find solutions diplomatically and neither deserve to be in power.

I actually think Isreal are dogshit at propaganda and haven’t controlled any narrative to be honest. Hamas are much better on that front. Obviously Isreal don’t exactly help themselves either but neither do Hamas.

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[Reiser99]

Has anyone noticed that whenever Netanyahu is under real pressure, innocent Israeli people mysteriously die and Israel having the right to defend itself and antisemitism become front and centre again? He has controlled the narrative for years and people continually buy his shite. I'm not saying he is responsible for inside jobs but I do believe that he has (in the shadows) baited Hamas into responding and has deliberately lowered Israel's guard at certain times to let these attacks happen. The Egyptian leader warned him about October 7th and he ignored it - a year out from the American election when Biden was peak lame duck. The timing couldn't have been better.

Hamas are evil scum who should be eradicated but the idea of Netanyahu being the one to liberate Palestinians from them is ridiculous given that he has made Gaza an open air prison and sponsored Jewish settlers into murdering and displacing innocent Palestinians in the West Bank. I have no loyalty to either side but I have heard enough politically neutral aid organisation leaders comment on what is happening on the ground. America is fully complicit in enabling Netanyahu's illegal expansionist policy and Iran & Qatar are also complicit for sponsoring and harbouring Hamas leadership. All of these countries deserve massive criticism.

I remember when my brother and I used to fight over a toy or the remote control when we were kids and my Dad's solution was "well if you can't agree then neither of you deserve it" and we both did without. I feel the same about Hamas and this Israeli Government. Both have had plenty chances to find solutions diplomatically and neither deserve to be in power.

I still have one issue, which is that people keep suggesting that Hamas and the Israeli government are on equal footing. They are not. One holds almost all the power and the other fights back with what little they can. That doesn't make them right or their actions less abhorrent, but suggesting that Hamas have just as much control over what happens in Gaza is ludicrous.

 

[Ddanno]

******* hell

 

[Welsh Exile]

I still have one issue, which is that people keep suggesting that Hamas and the Israeli government are on equal footing. They are not. One holds almost all the power and the other fights back with what little they can. That doesn't make them right or their actions less abhorrent, but suggesting that Hamas have just as much control over what happens in Gaza is ludicrous.

Fights back with what little they can? I have to disagree with this unless you see October 7th as legitimate resistance.

Of course Isreal holds more power. The American government held more power than MLK and African Americans. The Brits had more power than the Irish, Mandela, Ghandi etc etc etc.

They must have some control. You must assign Hamas some agency as the ruling body of Gaza. This obviously 100% applies to Isreal as well.

 

[Reiser99]

Fights back with what little they can? I have to disagree with this unless you see October 7th as legitimate resistance.

Of course Isreal holds more power. The American government held more power than MLK and African Americans. The Brits had more power than the Irish, Mandela, Ghandi etc etc etc.

They must have some control. You must assign Hamas some agency as the ruling body of Gaza. This obviously 100% applies to Isreal as well.

I never said it was legitimate resistance. I never said Hamas were not guilty or responsible. What they did was abhorrent. That doesn't change the fact that Israel has far more power than Hamas and therefore they are not equals when it comes to negotiations.

 

[Ddanno]

Fights back with what little they can? I have to disagree with this unless you see October 7th as legitimate resistance.

Of course Isreal holds more power. The American government held more power than MLK and African Americans. The Brits had more power than the Irish, Mandela, Ghandi etc etc etc.

They must have some control. You must assign Hamas some agency as the ruling body of Gaza. This obviously 100% applies to Isreal as well.

I feel there's a distinction to be drawn between 7 October (which is a terrorist atrocity rather than the action of a state or population in my view) and the actions of the Israeli government against the Palestinians since then.

It doesn't strike me as a "war" when one side is barely capable of fighting back, has limited affiliation with one of the aggressors and is constantly having their infrastructure turned to rubble. Meanwhile they get to starve to death because they won't even allow aid in.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I never said it was legitimate resistance. I never said Hamas were not guilty or responsible. What they did was abhorrent. That doesn't change the fact that Israel has far more power than Hamas and therefore they are not equals when it comes to negotiations.

I appreciate you didn’t but saying they fight back with what little they can implies October 7th is legitimate resistance. They didn’t have to do that and they didn’t have to film it and they didn’t have to say straight after doing it they will do it again and again.

One side usually has a lot more power than another in a war. Especially in wars similar to this.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I feel there's a distinction to be drawn between 7 October (which is a terrorist atrocity rather than the action of a state or population in my view) and the actions of the Israeli government against the Palestinians since then.

It doesn't strike me as a "war" when one side is barely capable of fighting back, has limited affiliation with one of the aggressors and is constantly having their infrastructure turned to rubble. Meanwhile they get to starve to death because they won't even allow aid in.

As I said above, I personally wouldn’t define a war as being 2 sides of equal size and power fighting each other (though that can obviously be the case) in reality, and history, the majority of the time it’s one guy with a way bigger stick than another guy.

 

[dirty harry]

Yeah, I should've said to you in my initial response that I can maybe se the BLM comparison seeing as he was talking about MLK but for me he was talking very specifically about conflict. He started that last bit with saying "There are 2 types of conflicts, Zero sum and Tragic" or whatever the word is (I should watch it back) and then talked about MLK in the context of a conflict. I suppose you could argue him on the word conflict and say well, there's a reason it was called the civil rights "movement" but IMO the civil rights movement led by MLK isn't that comparable to the BLM "movement" though obviously racial injustice being the core tenant of each thing.

It's why I mentioned Ukraine as that is an out and out conflict. Trump or any political shenanigans I don't think applies to what he was talking about.

Trump uses division as his main weapon in the media really. That wasn't really MLK's MO like it is with Trump.

100% agree, BLM was never similar to MLKs movement, firstly Garza, Cullors and Tometi were very outspoken about their aims, self styled marxists who wanted disrupt the nuclear family, and eradicate the criminal justice system. They softened that and deleted as much of that as they could from official pages, but ultimately based in their actions over the last few years it seems like it was a gift, and they become super rich and run away.

To compare them to a chief strategist like MLK, who's words they refuted over and over would be a disgrace to MLK. As stated he was a great speaker, but better strategist.

I get it, the conflict element does lend perfectly to Ukraine and Hamas alike, and when you look at attitudes like on this thread, uncompromising and refusal to acknowledge any context of any situation, purely this team good, this team bad, then it seems to be effective.

 

[Reiser99]

As I said above, I personally wouldn't define a war as being 2 sides of equal size and power fighting each other (though that can obviously be the case) in reality, and history, the majority of the time it's one guy with a way bigger stick than another guy.

There is a difference between one side having a bigger stick and one side having access to modern weapons, planes, missile, be able to cut the water and electricity to the other side and blockade them so that no aid gets through.

 

[dirty harry]

Has anyone noticed that whenever Netanyahu is under real pressure, innocent Israeli people mysteriously die and Israel having the right to defend itself and antisemitism become front and centre again? He has controlled the narrative for years and people continually buy his shite. I'm not saying he is responsible for inside jobs but I do believe that he has (in the shadows) baited Hamas into responding and has deliberately lowered Israel's guard at certain times to let these attacks happen. The Egyptian leader warned him about October 7th and he ignored it - a year out from the American election when Biden was peak lame duck. The timing couldn't have been better.

Hamas are evil scum who should be eradicated but the idea of Netanyahu being the one to liberate Palestinians from them is ridiculous given that he has made Gaza an open air prison and sponsored Jewish settlers into murdering and displacing innocent Palestinians in the West Bank. I have no loyalty to either side but I have heard enough politically neutral aid organisation leaders comment on what is happening on the ground. America is fully complicit in enabling Netanyahu's illegal expansionist policy and Iran & Qatar are also complicit for sponsoring and harbouring Hamas leadership. All of these countries deserve massive criticism.

I remember when my brother and I used to fight over a toy or the remote control when we were kids and my Dad's solution was "well if you can't agree then neither of you deserve it" and we both did without. I feel the same about Hamas and this Israeli Government. Both have had plenty chances to find solutions diplomatically and neither deserve to be in power.

A lot to disagree with here, conspiracy theories about Netinyahu killing isrelais etc, but I agree on Oct 7th. IDF knew about it days before, but didn't act.

I'd also add Isreal have been really bad narratively, partly because most western media are out for them, partly because of their own failings.

 

[Welsh Exile]

100% agree, BLM was never similar to MLKs movement, firstly Garza, Cullors and Tometi were very outspoken about their aims, self styled marxists who wanted disrupt the nuclear family, and eradicate the criminal justice system. They softened that and deleted as much of that as they could from official pages, but ultimately based in their actions over the last few years it seems like it was a gift, and they become super rich and run away.

To compare them to a chief strategist like MLK, who's words they refuted over and over would be a disgrace to MLK. As stated he was a great speaker, but better strategist.

I get it, the conflict element does lend perfectly to Ukraine and Hamas alike, and when you look at attitudes like on this thread, uncompromising and refusal to acknowledge any context of any situation, purely this team good, this team bad, then it seems to be effective.

I would say the Ukraine war is a zero sum, though.