A Political Thread pt. 2

[Reiser99]

Ok, I'm going to be that guy but it's described as reliable and that could be the case but it could also be the case that it's not 100% reliable either. Definitely vital for war record/history though.

The ICRC is a reliable source of information about what is happening in Gaza. Israel does not allow international news organisations, including the BBC, to send journalists into the territory. The reporting of the more than 300 ICRC staff in Gaza, 90% of whom are Palestinians, forms a vital part of the record of the war.

So basically because the country accused of killing civilians isn't allowing foreign media into Gaza, the reports might not be accurate so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

At some point you will have to accept that while Hamas committed an atrocity, Israel has gone way further, committed dozens of war crimes and has actually just full on attacked civilians and children intentionally.

I honestly have no idea why you feel the need to caveat and try to downplay the seriousness of Israel's actions because even if numbers are exaggerated, it's still gone way past a proportional response.

 

[dirty harry]

So basically because the country accused of killing civilians isn't allowing foreign media into Gaza, the reports might not be accurate so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

At some point you will have to accept that while Hamas committed an atrocity, Israel has gone way further, committed dozens of war crimes and has actually just full on attacked civilians and children intentionally.

I honestly have no idea why you feel the need to caveat and try to downplay the seriousness of Israel's actions because even if numbers are exaggerated, it's still gone way past a proportional response.

Committed 'an' atrocity? Just the one? not more, not breaking international law? not targeting its own civilians for propaganda purposes? not refusing ceasefire?

Intentionally attacked civilians and children?

I think @welsh exiles point is, and I don't want to talk for him, is that nothing coming out of the region is reliable, as evidenced by the GMO and GMH having to constantly removed death numbers and stats, analysis proving over and over they aren't being truthful, and some videos being discredited etc...

I'm not aware he's playing down Isreals actions, infact I've seen him be very critical of the war crimes, but I think it makes sense to treat most info coming out of the region as unreliable. Doesn't that sound sensible?

 

[Welsh Exile]

So basically because the country accused of killing civilians isn't allowing foreign media into Gaza, the reports might not be accurate so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

At some point you will have to accept that while Hamas committed an atrocity, Israel has gone way further, committed dozens of war crimes and has actually just full on attacked civilians and children intentionally.

I honestly have no idea why you feel the need to caveat and try to downplay the seriousness of Israel's actions because even if numbers are exaggerated, it's still gone way past a proportional response.

I shouldn't have said anything really but I'm just saying it's hard to know what's going on. As I said the other day not letting in journalists is one of the many mistakes made (unsurprisingly by probably the most right wing and incompetent Israeli government in the history of Isreal) by Isreal.

I don't know their system well enough (though funnily enough they have a PR system so ties in with what we were taking about earlier) so I don't know how much those kind of decisions play out in the coalition/government if at all.

 

[Saintjay]

I think in simple terms both sides are scum bags, both spin the narrative and both try to play the victim. They are both at fault and neither side really gives a monkeys about the deaths of people because they want to make a point and they are in the right.

To quote The Witcher. Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. If I have to choose between one evil and another, I prefer not to choose at all."

I detest both sides and like most people just wish they'd stop killing each other.

 

[Reiser99]

I shouldn't have said anything really but I'm just saying it's hard to know what's going on. As I said the other day not letting in journalists is one of the many mistakes made (unsurprisingly by probably the most right wing and incompetent Israeli government in the history of Isreal) by Isreal.

I don't know their system well enough (though funnily enough they have a PR system so ties in with what we were taking about earlier) so I don't know how much those kind of decisions play out in the coalition/government if at all.

Just to be clear my issue doesn't come from you criticising Hamas, that's fine. However, there were over 2 million people in Gaza. Even if you think the numbers are exaggerated by Hamas it doesn't change the fact that tens of thousands have died, the majority of whom are non-combatants such as children, women and medical staff. Nearly all of the 2 million have been displaced. This doesn't even go into whether Israel has intentionally targeted refuge centres, hospitals, schools (they have and there is evidence of deliberate killing) and blocking any kind of aid. At this point it is ordinary Palestinians who are suffering many of which have absolutely no choice in whether Hamas is in power. Not every Palestinian is part of Hamas, so suggesting that the ICRC is unreliable just because the people working there are Palestinian is dangerous territory.

I think in simple terms both sides are scum bags, both spin the narrative and both try to play the victim. They are both at fault and neither side really gives a monkeys about the deaths of people because they want to make a point and they are in the right.

To quote The Witcher. Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. If I have to choose between one evil and another, I prefer not to choose at all."

I detest both sides and like most people just wish they'd stop killing each other.

I won't debate that, because it's far too long a discussion. My view is simple. Yes both Hamas and Israel have committed evil acts. However, only one of them is continuing to do so and only one of them has the power to stop it permanently. Israel is the one continuing to kill civilians. Israel is the one continually refusing to let enough aid in. Israel is the one who broke the truce. Israel is the one refusing to guarantee it won't just attack a month later. I wish they would stop killing each other too, but when one side has the monopoly on the killing then it's pretty obvious who is at fault.

 

[dirty harry]

Just to be clear my issue doesn't come from you criticising Hamas, that's fine. However, there were over 2 million people in Gaza. Even if you think the numbers are exaggerated by Hamas it doesn't change the fact that tens of thousands have died, the majority of whom are non-combatants such as children, women and medical staff. Nearly all of the 2 million have been displaced. This doesn't even go into whether Israel has intentionally targeted refuge centres, hospitals, schools (they have and there is evidence of deliberate killing) and blocking any kind of aid. At this point it is ordinary Palestinians who are suffering many of which have absolutely no choice in whether Hamas is in power. Not every Palestinian is part of Hamas, so suggesting that the ICRC is unreliable just because the people working there are Palestinian is dangerous territory.

I won't debate that, because it's far too long a discussion. My view is simple. Yes both Hamas and Israel have committed evil acts. However, only one of them is continuing to do so and only one of them has the power to stop it permanently. Israel is the one continuing to kill civilians. Israel is the one continually refusing to let enough aid in. Israel is the one who broke the truce. Israel is the one refusing to guarantee it won't just attack a month later. I wish they would stop killing each other too, but when one side has the monopoly on the killing then it's pretty obvious who is at fault.

This is not true though is it, just days ago Isreal signed off on a ceasefire... Hamas rejected it.

You can claim isreal are the ones continuing, but when Hamas refuse ceasefire options, especially withbunreasonable demands, what do you want from them?

There could be no fighting, and aid being brought into the Country today, but because of Hamas decision recently there isn't. That's factual no?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

BBC News - Free school meal rule change to make 500,000 more pupils eligible - BBC News

Free school meal rule change to make 500,000 more pupils eligible

Charities have broadly welcomed the plans, saying they hope it is a sign of more to come.

www.bbc.co.uk

Some of the comments make me ashamed. It seems there are people in this country who would support children going without food to make some point against the poor...

 

[Welsh Exile]

Just to be clear my issue doesn't come from you criticising Hamas, that's fine. However, there were over 2 million people in Gaza. Even if you think the numbers are exaggerated by Hamas it doesn't change the fact that tens of thousands have died, the majority of whom are non-combatants such as children, women and medical staff. Nearly all of the 2 million have been displaced. This doesn't even go into whether Israel has intentionally targeted refuge centres, hospitals, schools (they have and there is evidence of deliberate killing) and blocking any kind of aid. At this point it is ordinary Palestinians who are suffering many of which have absolutely no choice in whether Hamas is in power. Not every Palestinian is part of Hamas, so suggesting that the ICRC is unreliable just because the people working there are Palestinian is dangerous territory.

I won't debate that, because it's far too long a discussion. My view is simple. Yes both Hamas and Israel have committed evil acts. However, only one of them is continuing to do so and only one of them has the power to stop it permanently. Israel is the one continuing to kill civilians. Israel is the one continually refusing to let enough aid in. Israel is the one who broke the truce. Israel is the one refusing to guarantee it won't just attack a month later. I wish they would stop killing each other too, but when one side has the monopoly on the killing then it's pretty obvious who is at fault.

I don't know what the latest is but there are some Palestinians towards the end of March and through April and Now (I think) who are protesting against Hamas (some say in their thousands) which considering they know they and their families will likely be tortured and killed is incredibly brave.

Look, we won't agree but I see both a legal and a moral difference between October 7th and the subsequent Israeli response but that's because I see this as a war and you see it as a genocide. A genocide, or attempted, is what October 7th was not the collateral damage of Palestinians in a war. I do question the Israeli governments competency but then they don't have compete control over the IDF and while I'm sure there have been war crimes committed (as there are in any wars) it's a war. But hey, if it turns out that the IDF from top down are rolling out orders to kill kids and that all comes to light I'll hold my hands up. I don't think that is what's happening though.

 

[Seeker]

I posted this article here because it involves 19 countries.

Trump announces travel ban and restrictions on 19 countries set to go into effect Monday

President Donald Trump on Wednesday resurrected a hallmark policy of his first term, announcing that citizens of 12 countries would be banned from visiting the United States and those from seven others would face restrictions. Trump, who signaled plans for a new ban upon taking office in...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think in simple terms both sides are scum bags, both spin the narrative and both try to play the victim. They are both at fault and neither side really gives a monkeys about the deaths of people because they want to make a point and they are in the right.

To quote The Witcher. Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. If I have to choose between one evil and another, I prefer not to choose at all."

I detest both sides and like most people just wish they'd stop killing each other.

I would argue that the IDF care more about Palestinian life than Hamas do. I’m not saying they deeply care about it but they certainly take more measures to try and prevent more Palestinians death as opposed to Hamas who literally put them in harms way and want them to die.

 

[Seeker]

Ukraine officer tells US that Russia plots big advances

A Ukrainian military officer told the United States on Wednesday that Russian forces are preparing major advances into next year, including aiming to cut off Black Sea access, as Kyiv pushes for stronger pressure against Moscow.The goal is to "occupy Odessa region and Mykolaiv region, to cut...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Which Tyler]

Look, we won't agree but I see both a legal and a moral difference between October 7th and the subsequent Israeli response but that's because I see this as a war and you see it as a genocide. A genocide, or attempted, is what October 7th was not the collateral damage of Palestinians in a war. I do question the Israeli governments competency but then they don't have compete control over the IDF and while I'm sure there have been war crimes committed (as there are in any wars) it's a war. But hey, if it turns out that the IDF from top down are rolling out orders to kill kids and that all comes to light I'll hold my hands up. I don't think that is what's happening though.

Hang on a sec....

What definition of "genocide, or attempted" DOES fit "what October 7th was" but DOES NOT fit "the collateral damage of Palestinians in a war"
Indiscriminate murder of 1200 and kidnapping of 250 is terrible. It is bad. It doesn't fit any definition of attempted genocide I've ever seen.
But the indiscriminate murder of 50,000 - 100,000, refusal to allow and deliberate starving and displacement of 2,000,000 people absolutely does (even if you prefer the term "ethnic cleansing", and even if you call it "war" [which means that you redefine Gaza as an independent nation-state]).

100% of Gazans have been severely and directly adversely affected by Israeli actions over the last 2 years.
0.0145% of Israelis were severely and directly adversely affected by Hamas actions on October 7th.

 

[dirty harry]

I posted this article here because it involves 19 countries.

Trump announces travel ban and restrictions on 19 countries set to go into effect Monday

President Donald Trump on Wednesday resurrected a hallmark policy of his first term, announcing that citizens of 12 countries would be banned from visiting the United States and those from seven others would face restrictions. Trump, who signaled plans for a new ban upon taking office in...

www.yahoo.com

I havnt read it and don't have time, I'll get to it later...

But if this is a repeat of his first term, in which he took the actions on Obamas list terror prevention act 2015, then I'm going to finger wag...

 

[Which Tyler]

Ukraine officer tells US that Russia plots big advances

A Ukrainian military officer told the United States on Wednesday that Russian forces are preparing major advances into next year, including aiming to cut off Black Sea access, as Kyiv pushes for stronger pressure against Moscow.The goal is to "occupy Odessa region and Mykolaiv region, to cut...

www.yahoo.com

And why the hell is anyone publishing war plans in advance?
Maybe THIS is why the Ukrainians don't want to share their own plans and intelligence with USA?
Keep it to themselves, and they destroy 30% of Russia's bombers in 1 day. Tell the Americans, and it's in the press way in advance.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Hang on a sec....

What definition of "genocide, or attempted" DOES fit "what October 7th was" but DOES NOT fit "the collateral damage of Palestinians in a war"
Indiscriminate murder of 1200 and kidnapping of 250 is terrible. It is bad. It doesn't fit any definition of attempted genocide I've ever seen.
But the indiscriminate murder of 50,000 - 100,000, refusal to allow and deliberate starving and displacement of 2,000,000 people absolutely does (even if you prefer the term "ethnic cleansing", and even if you call it "war" [which means that you redefine Gaza as an independent nation-state]).

100% of Gazans have been severely and directly adversely affected by Israeli actions over the last 2 years.
0.0145% of Israelis were severely and directly adversely affected by Hamas actions on October 7th.

Yeah we likely have different interpretations. October 7th was an attempted genocide because their intended aim was to kill Jews. As many Jews as they could (all of them if they could get away with it) they wanted to do this because they were Jews. That is an attempted genocide. They don’t target military personel. What has happened since is a war. In things like war you get thousands of civilian deaths and even things like ethnic cleansing (like the Germans after WW2 or the Palestinians after the Arab Israeli war in 48) but it is a war. You can get genocides in war as well but you have to have a systematic, top down roll out from leaders to generals to foot soldiers who a have the will and intent to carry out such genocidal orders.

 

[dirty harry]

Hang on a sec....

What definition of "genocide, or attempted" DOES fit "what October 7th was" but DOES NOT fit "the collateral damage of Palestinians in a war"
Indiscriminate murder of 1200 and kidnapping of 250 is terrible. It is bad. It doesn't fit any definition of attempted genocide I've ever seen.
But the indiscriminate murder of 50,000 - 100,000, refusal to allow and deliberate starving and displacement of 2,000,000 people absolutely does (even if you prefer the term "ethnic cleansing", and even if you call it "war" [which means that you redefine Gaza as an independent nation-state]).

100% of Gazans have been severely and directly adversely affected by Israeli actions over the last 2 years.
0.0145% of Israelis were severely and directly adversely affected by Hamas actions on October 7th.

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

Words from Hamas.

Now find genocidal words from Isreal? What are isreals stated intentions? What are Hamas stated intentions?

Hamas wants Isreals destruction, Isreal wants to be left alone.

Now condemn the war crimes from the IDF, but at least give Hamas some agency, some responsibility for their war crimes, the using civilians as cover, putting them in harms way, spending aid money for military actions, building infrastructure, attacking aid stations to provide IDF response in an attempt to video and highlight 'genocide' so the Muslim world will rise and destroy Isreal!

Be realistic lol

 

[Welsh Exile]

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Words from Hamas.

Now find genocidal words from Isreal? What are isreals stated intentions? What are Hamas stated intentions?

Hamas wants Isreals destruction, Isreal wants to be left alone.

Now condemn the war crimes from the IDF, but at least give Hamas some agency, some responsibility for their war crimes, the using civilians as cover, putting them in harms way, spending aid money for military actions, building infrastructure, attacking aid stations to provide IDF response in an attempt to video and highlight 'genocide' so the Muslim world will rise and destroy Isreal!

Be realistic lol

To be fair that scum bag Smultritch or whatever his name is has said some pretty genocidal stuff.

 

[Welsh Exile]

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Words from Hamas.

Now find genocidal words from Isreal? What are isreals stated intentions? What are Hamas stated intentions?

Hamas wants Isreals destruction, Isreal wants to be left alone.

Now condemn the war crimes from the IDF, but at least give Hamas some agency, some responsibility for their war crimes, the using civilians as cover, putting them in harms way, spending aid money for military actions, building infrastructure, attacking aid stations to provide IDF response in an attempt to video and highlight 'genocide' so the Muslim world will rise and destroy Isreal!

Be realistic lol

Hamas have no agency. They’re helpless. They can’t do anything but kill their population and start a war they know that will give them what they want. Dead Palestinians. They’ll even sacrifice their own children to the death cult. As in any war it’s the ordinary civilians that have to put up with it.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Hang on a sec....

What definition of "genocide, or attempted" DOES fit "what October 7th was" but DOES NOT fit "the collateral damage of Palestinians in a war"
Indiscriminate murder of 1200 and kidnapping of 250 is terrible. It is bad. It doesn't fit any definition of attempted genocide I've ever seen.
But the indiscriminate murder of 50,000 - 100,000, refusal to allow and deliberate starving and displacement of 2,000,000 people absolutely does (even if you prefer the term "ethnic cleansing", and even if you call it "war" [which means that you redefine Gaza as an independent nation-state]).

100% of Gazans have been severely and directly adversely affected by Israeli actions over the last 2 years.
0.0145% of Israelis were severely and directly adversely affected by Hamas actions on October 7th.

How come 2 million people have been displaced?

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah we likely have different interpretations. October 7th was an attempted genocide because their intended aim was to kill Jews. As many Jews as they could (all of them if they could get away with it) they wanted to do this because they were Jews. That is an attempted genocide. They don't target military personel. What has happened since is a war. In things like war you get thousands of civilian deaths and even things like ethnic cleansing (like the Germans after WW2 or the Palestinians after the Arab Israeli war in 48) but it is a war. You can get genocides in war as well but you have to have a systematic, top down roll out from leaders to generals to foot soldiers who a have the will and intent to carry out such genocidal orders.

Apart from the ones they took hostage?