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Welsh Exile said:
Wait a minute, are you saying they didn't vote for Trump because people called them/Trump mean words? I'm gobsmacked.
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Fear - an emotional response to a perceived threat or danger.

Would you vote for Labour if at every opportunity they called you evil, attacked you and called for your demise?
 
dirty harry said:
I was waiting for this hahaha

@Ragey Erasmus anything to say about this lol Trump makes a joke, identified by a room of people laughing, and posters are googling constitutional law and claiming Trumps dumb for not knowing his joke isnt legally accurate hahahaha
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Many a true thing is said in jest. Just because he joints about something one time, doesn't mean he isn't still thinking it.
 
dirty harry said:
Before I read any of that, I dont understand why you insist on calling me both sides like its an insult, its called empathy.

But ive explained to you a number of times, and in fact I argue left wing principles constantly, just because I dont deem people within my society or even the rest of the world I disagree with on certain issues an enemy like you seem to, doesnt mean my opinions are less important because ive become an 'other' in your view.

I'll keep telling you, your arguments absolutely mimic MAGAs, you act exactly the same as them, you misquote, mock and absolutely attribute malice, ignorance, and alternative meanings and fact in a way that suits your opinions, I would encourage you to be better than them, if your capable.

But let's take the twitter post above as an example, do you believe Trump was making a joke about war and elections, or is he setting a platform for a 3rd term, an authoritarian state and to eradicate anyone non white with this comment?

I'll get to the rest in due course, im just running into a meeting
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Both sides is not empathy, it's refusing to accept the possibility that the truth doesn't need to lie in the middle, nor that both sides are identical. It's lazy and dishonest pretending to be enlightened. There is a difference between seeing both sides and both sides-ing.

I don't deem those who disagree with be an enemy, once again you are arse about face. It is the MAGA lot who at framed this as being against an event rather than a political opponent, and the tea party before that. Trump has literally called judges "enemy of the people". The Obama administration was presented as an enemy. You have this habit of confusing cause and effect. No doubt you look at people reacting to bullying and conclude they are identical to the bully.

If what I say about MAGA isn't true then why do you refuse to actually provide the things I've asked for?

Do I think Trump will start a war to deny elections? No. Do I think he wants to heavily interfere in them? Yes. Do I think he wants to carry out potentially illegal acts to win them? Yes. Do I think he will attempt to overstep his powers to hinder results he doesn't like? Yes. I don't need to treat these as hypothetical because they have all happened already. I suggest you look at some of the voter suppression techniques already in use, overwhelmingly these are in Republican states.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Both sides is not empathy, it's refusing to accept the possibility that the truth doesn't need to lie in the middle, nor that both sides are identical. It's lazy and dishonest pretending to be enlightened. There is a difference between seeing both sides and both sides-ing.

I don't deem those who disagree with be an enemy, once again you are arse about face. It is the MAGA lot who at framed this as being against an event rather than a political opponent, and the tea party before that. Trump has literally called judges "enemy of the people". The Obama administration was presented as an enemy. You have this habit of confusing cause and effect. No doubt you look at people reacting to bullying and conclude they are identical to the bully.

If what I say about MAGA isn't true then why do you refuse to actually provide the things I've asked for?

Do I think Trump will start a war to deny elections? No. Do I think he wants to heavily interfere in them? Yes. Do I think he wants to carry out potentially illegal acts to win them? Yes. Do I think he will attempt to overstep his powers to hinder results he doesn't like? Yes. I don't need to treat these as hypothetical because they have all happened already. I suggest you look at some of the voter suppression techniques already in use, overwhelmingly these are in Republican states.
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"Do I think he wants to heavily interfere in them? Yes. Do I think he wants to carry out potentially illegal acts to win them? Yes."

Ill take arguments made against Obama and Hillary Clinton for 100 Alex.
 
dirty harry said:
Right, time to get into the weeds...

Are you claiming, midterms arent pretty much guaranteed a gain for the losing party? You cant see a party decimated, that made gainst in the middle terms because only their base is motivated to vote, to then see them decimated at the next election as progress or success?

Republicans were being question after the elections, a sentiment that given the demolition Obama inflicted, and the prevailing trends of common sense, I shared with the media, that was then reflected in 2012. a midterm doesnt move the needle of power really in most cases, as I think you know. Republicans were lucky that in 2010 they managed to gain a semblance of negotiation power, which is why I claimed the Tea party were partially (i cant remember the word i used) successful, but ultimately an abject failure, as we can evidence that it faded out within the next election cycle, after high profile losses at the big show. Even the semi success at mid terms can be attributed to trends of midterms.

Ive never conflated Trump with Republicans, Republicans are a failure, Trump steam rolled them in 2015, did you see any of the primary debates lol, they were not on board until he became unbeatable, and even then key figures waited until after the elections. Bush, Cruz, Dubious, Romney and others actively criticised him, even after he became nominee a lot of prominent Republicans refused to vote for him, Kasich, Bushes, Romney etc... this wasnt Kamala calling Biden racist, then immediately back tracking and saying she didnt mean it, this was major Republican players casting doubt on their nominee, even sitting senators, i dont remember the number but probably a dozen plus, refused to vote for him. I dont remember any Dems refusing to vote for Clinton.

I'll be honest, I only managed to reach end of the contrarian paragraph and counted what 6 ad hominims, its pretty hard to discuss politely when you start a comment with 3 insults in 3 lines, id say your better than this, but I cant keep saying it as a trend has been established.

You've had it explained to you very clearly, and over and over, that insulting people, name calling and misquoting / bending what is being said isnt doing what you think it is, infact its the core of the problem, yet when arguing against it you repeatedly do it over and over.

Ilbut let's get down to a specific example, you and MAGA are making the exact same arguments in the exact same way...

Which boards are you on that hold positive or even neutral views of MAGA? What media content do you ingestion that holds positive or neitral views of MAGA?
Most importantly, and worryingly is the line 'In fact find be any MAGA supporters whose position advocates helping others.'

You have to understand how crazy that statement is? Your claiming of 80 million voters, not one of them has advocated for helping others?!?!

I cannot believe that your stance is truly that every Trump voter or supporter wants harm to others, and none have advocated to help others! That is worrying, and as ive said previously, you sound like you have been radicalised, because if you truly hold that view, you may well be considering acting to rectify that. I know, if i believed a group of people were actively wanting to harm others, and none had advocated any help, id have the moral responsibility to act!!

And I don't mean these as insults, but I see radicalisation and work with PREVENT semi regularly, having 0 empathy for the 'others' is a red flag. Would you say you hated, or wanted to cause harm to MAGA supporters?
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I know parties make gains in mid terms, they don't make 1 in a century gains, particularly if they are out in the wilderness as you claimed. You are the one who kept saying Republicans were nowhere before Trump came along. They controlled the house, senate and supreme court before Trump became president. So again, explain how controlling every other branch of government counts as being "in the wilderness"? They weren't obliterated again in Obama's 2nd election, you are now flat out lying and ignoring the numbers I posted.

You have conflated Trump with Republicans repeatedly, stop lying. You said that Republicans were nowhere, that they were talking and that Trump turned it round for them. This is what they controlled the house, senate and supreme court. I have pointed out Republicans were not failing at all, they were doing very well. Trump also didn't get to the head of the Republican ticket until late, you act like he took over from the beginning.

You literally sit there telling bare faced lies and wonder why you get insulted? Don't pretend you are Mr reasonable when you make plenty of smug comments yourself.

Then show me MAGA advocating helping others. If it's so easy why can't you do it!? This is where we always get, you claim something is so easy to find but then refuse to ever produce the goods. What are the core MAGA principles and, more importantly, how much can a reasonable person believe Trump will fulfil that? Go on, tell me what their core political principles are, what do they want to see enacted most?

I have no desire to see anyone harmed, which is why I oppose those who do.
 
dirty harry said:
Aw mate dont play act... you definately are better than that
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Ok, we do have a lot of agreement here in that fear was one of many factors at play I'm sure when it comes to reasons for people voting. For example, when Trump directly quoted Hitler by saying immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country then I imagine that instilled some fear in his voters. I'm just not so sure the fear of being called names was that high up.
 
dirty harry said:
"Do I think he wants to heavily interfere in them? Yes. Do I think he wants to carry out potentially illegal acts to win them? Yes."

Ill take arguments made against Obama and Hillary Clinton for 100 Alex.
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Lazy both sides-ism again. There's a suprise.

Simple question, both Obama and Trump were accused prior to the elections of likely not leaving office and ensuring the democratic process proceeds. Are these 2 claims equal in your eyes?
 
Welsh Exile said:
What do you think of these Harry?

www.google.com

Six Trump voters on why he won their support in 2024 - BBC News

His messaging on issues like the economy and immigration strikes a chord - his supporters told the BBC why.
www.google.com www.google.com

navigatorresearch.org

2024 Post-Election Survey: The Reasons for Voting for Trump and Harris | Navigator

Report on voters' top reasons for supporting Donald Trump or Kamala Harris, including perceptions of how each candidate prioritized issues.
navigatorresearch.org navigatorresearch.org
Click to expand...

Ill have a look in a bit...

I bet there is some south American anti Imkigrant in one of these lists though, the BBC loves those attitudes and pushing it on the USA lol.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Lazy both sides-ism again. There's a suprise.

Simple question, both Obama and Trump were accused prior to the elections of likely not leaving office and ensuring the democratic process proceeds. Are these 2 claims equal in your eyes?
Click to expand...

Its not both sides-ism (although I have to respect the term you have created?) When I'm out and proud left on most issues.

Empathising with why people whoni wouldnt vote with, like MAGA and adressing their concerns as legit, is text book empathy. I dont sit on the fence, I criticise Trump constantly, but I recognise that jokes aren't deep seeded thoughts, christ imagine what you must think of every edgy comedian?!
 
dirty harry said:
Ill have a look in a bit...

I bet there is some south American anti Imkigrant in one of these lists though, the BBC loves those attitudes and pushing it on the USA lol.
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There is indeed. Funny that quoting Hitler saying immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country and calling Mexicans rapists and what not had an effect on people. Who would’ve thought.
 
dirty harry said:
Its not both sides-ism (although I have to respect the term you have created?) When I'm out and proud left on most issues.

Empathising with why people whoni wouldnt vote with, like MAGA and adressing their concerns as legit, is text book empathy. I dont sit on the fence, I criticise Trump constantly, but I recognise that jokes aren't deep seated thoughts, christ imagine what you must think of every edgy comedian?!
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But this is what we’re doing. I just don’t think that the perception that the left were calling him and them racists was high up on the list of reasons why people voted Trump.
 
Welsh Exile said:
Out of interest how many Trump voters do you think are MAGA? I'm not even sure it's a majority.
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I dont think it is either, id estimate hard core may 8 to 10 million, but thats pulled out my ass, it could be more, it wouldnt surprise me if it was much less.

I think the vast majority of Trump voters are just scared, and have been left politically homeless and demonised to the point they think they have to vote for survival.

I know some who voted for him who dont like him at all, but are scared for their future and family if they vote Dem.

It was explained to me by a friend years ago, he was in prison for a short while, and he said as much as he despised the white nationalists inside, he had no choice but to side with them to survive. Thats how he felt about Trump, hes been scared into believing civil war is coming, and he won't have a choice in who's side hes on. Thats how scared he is of Dems etc, he literally thinks theyre evil
 

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