A Political Thread pt. 2

[dirty harry]

Again mixing up unity with damage limitation. NATO have upped spending precisely because the lack of unity and the fact the USA is no longer deemed a reliable partner. The rest of NATO are now trying to fill the void the USA has suddenly created in their defensive capabilities.

Also just because things may be happening in a way Russia doesn't like, that doesn't mean Russia didn't want to push it this way and it has not gone to plan. In terms of cutting off the USA from it's allies, it could hardly have gone better. Trump has dedicated more time attacking Americas allies than he has attacking Russia. Every little perceived insult from any ally and he's raging, Russia repeatedly slaps him in the face and he does nothing. You don't find that odd? Where are these huge repercussions he has promised multiple times? They haven't materialised. Meanwhile he has undermined NATO, slapped tariffs on most of the world, accused the EU of being a foe all for no reason. In what world are his actions unifying?

It's well known that Russian bot farms and Russian disinformation campaigns are overwhelmingly targeted at promoting nationalism. If they don't want to see that, why are they actively enabling it? Nationalism is their best tool to destroy the cooperation between NATO states. Russia could have wanted everything Trump did but not anticipated that other NATO nations would close ranks rather than fall into disunity.

Except these things have only happened in the minds of social media propagandists you consume...

USA have not withdrawn funds from NATO, its made most other countries spend more to increase funding, and take more responsibility, which has led to better spending, a step up in responsibility by europe, and stronger commitments to harder targets going forward. I cant see an argument for NATO being in a weaker position now than say 2 years ago, can you?

You keep saying there is division, and Russia wants nationalism and right wing to sweep the west, but your not explaining why that is?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Im not sure its rife, Ukraine flags and thoughts and prayers are still posted on social media, people have just been told its not as important as Gaza now.

Sonic not denying a cover security threat, but whats their endgame to creating a right wing nationalistic Europe?

I've already outlined what I think would be of benefit to them and it's not neccisarily an end game of right wing nationalist governments (though I have also outlined, in that scenario, why that would be preferable compared to a strong western democratic alliance.)

I'll say it again, though. The aim, in my opinion, is to create division. A polarised western population makes us weaker. The more misinformation distributed amongst western populations the better. The more we lose faith in our institutions the better, the more out of touch with reality the better. The more we question old alliances the better, the more we question foreign intervention the better etc etc

 

[dirty harry]

I've already outlined what I think would be of benefit to them and it's not neccisarily an end game of right wing nationalist governments (though I have also outlined, in that scenario, why that would be preferable compared to a strong western democratic alliance.)

I'll say it again, though. The aim, in my opinion, is to create division. A polarised western population makes us weaker. The more misinformation distributed amongst western populations the better. The more we lose faith in our institutions the better, the more out of touch with reality the better. The more we question old alliances the better, the more we question foreign intervention the better etc etc

But whats the culmination in all that division? Losing Ukraine? Its all but gone, it'll take a mass mobilisation to take back Ukraine from Russia, a mobilisation that won't happen because of the risk of global war. And if we are being honest, Ukraine didnt start under Trump, and was lost before he took office, so blaming him for the division is silly.

I don't understand what Russia gains from all those things, whats their endgame? Ukraine has gone, Belarus would join in a heartbeat, where does it end?

Its too convenient to blame Russia for everything you dislike Trump about, they of course, like every country engage in a bit of cyber warfare, but I cant believe Russian bot farms are dictating the internet narrative, over the type of technology the west has, if the narrative leans pro Russian which it certainly doesnt btw, then the US wants it that way.

 

[Welsh Exile]

But whats the culmination in all that division? Losing Ukraine? Its all but gone, it'll take a mass mobilisation to take back Ukraine from Russia, a mobilisation that won't happen because of the risk of global war. And if we are being honest, Ukraine didnt start under Trump, and was lost before he took office, so blaming him for the division is silly.

I don't understand what Russia gains from all those things, whats their endgame? Ukraine has gone, Belarus would join in a heartbeat, where does it end?

Its too convenient to blame Russia for everything you dislike Trump about, they of course, like every country engage in a bit of cyber warfare, but I cant believe Russian bot farms are dictating the internet narrative, over the type of technology the west has, if the narrative leans pro Russian which it certainly doesnt btw, then the US wants it that way.

There you go again using words like "dictate" trying to reframe what I'm saying when I've already clarified what I mean at least twice now (the first time being when you mischaracterised what I said by saying Russias aim is to control)

Ukraine is not all but gone. But yes, weaker western countries with less conviction is clearly of benefit to Putin with regards to Ukraine.

Christ, I've already told you 100 times what their end game is and I don't neccisarily think it's right wing nationalist governments in every European country but because I'm such good faith and a top guy I have even entertained that end game and outlined why that is infinitely more preferable to Putin than a strong democratic west.

 

[dirty harry]

There you go again using words like "dictate" trying to reframe what I'm saying when I've already clarified what I mean at least twice now (the first time being when you mischaracterised what I said by saying Russias aim is to control)

Ukraine is not all but gone. But yes, weaker western countries with less conviction is clearly of benefit to Putin with regards to Ukraine.

Christ, I've already told you 100 times what their end game is and I don't neccisarily think it's right wing nationalist governments in every European country but because I'm such good faith and a top guy I have even entertained that end game and outlined why that is infinitely more preferable to Putin than a strong democratic west.

Like a better funded and stronger NATO? even NATOs signaling to Russia is emboldened over the last 2 years. How is this Russian benefit?

Im not sure what your point is with the word dictate, why is that not what you said? You claimed Russia are subverting the narrative, to make everyone right wing, which you acknowledge is working, so dictating the narrative fits no? Have I misread what you are saying?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Like a better funded and stronger NATO? even NATOs signaling to Russia is emboldened over the last 2 years. How is this Russian benefit?

Im not sure what your point is with the word dictate, why is that not what you said? You claimed Russia are subverting the narrative, to make everyone right wing, which you acknowledge is working, so dictating the narrative fits no? Have I misread what you are saying?

You said before that I said they want, or are, controlling the narrative or our society or whatever the **** and I clearly said that is not what I mean, their aim, or the outcome of what we’re seeing, is disruption and influence. That is not dictating which is, again, complete control. I’m sure in an ideal world Putin would love to control everything that goes on in the west but he knows that is impossible. So he’ll settle for disruption and to influence what he can.

I also didn’t say his goal is to make everyone right wing. I’m saying the aim is to essentially create division. I don’t know how many times I have to say it.

 

[McTallshort]

Lets not forget the two instances of chemical attacks in the UK and the daily cyber hacking of our infrastructure....oh and the habit of invading it's neighbours and bombing civilians.

 

[McTallshort]

Losing Ukraine? Its all but gone,

Has it? Where are you getting your security briefs from?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Has it? Where are you getting your security briefs from?

I’ve been hearing that since the day the war started yet here we are over 3 years later and they’re still going. Hats off to them. Unbelievable bravery.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Except these things have only happened in the minds of social media propagandists you consume...

USA have not withdrawn funds from NATO, its made most other countries spend more to increase funding, and take more responsibility, which has led to better spending, a step up in responsibility by europe, and stronger commitments to harder targets going forward. I cant see an argument for NATO being in a weaker position now than say 2 years ago, can you?

You keep saying there is division, and Russia wants nationalism and right wing to sweep the west, but your not explaining why that is?

Nowhere did I say they had withdrawn funds, what I said is they have withdrawn a defensive capability. They are spending as much as ever but now their allies aren't so confident they will actually utilise that vast spending to help them any more. Nuanced difference Harry...

NATO now are definitely in a weaker position because, despite spending increases, NATO capability has dropped because people can no longer trust the USA to help. Also spending targets are a stupid way to determine NATO military capability, you should spend as much as you need to hit a target capability, not spend to a set level.

Multiple people have explained why that is, including me. You are one again arguing in bad faith and I can't be arsed to go around in circles with you sealioning again. Either you start discussing in good faith or I'm just not going to engage with you any more because I'm getting tired of your bullshit tactics.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You said before that I said they want, or are, controlling the narrative or our society or whatever the **** and I clearly said that is not what I mean, their aim, or the outcome of what we're seeing, is disruption and influence. That is not dictating which is, again, complete control. I'm sure in an ideal world Putin would love to control everything that goes on in the west but he knows that is impossible. So he'll settle for disruption and to influence what he can.

I also didn't say his goal is to make everyone right wing. I'm saying the aim is to essentially create division. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

He's just intentionally being an obtuse **** now.

 

[Welsh Exile]

What do you think the aim of these bot farms are Harry? Assuming you agree they exist.

 

[ncurd]

He's just intentionally being an obtuse **** now.

That's normal...

 

[General Melchett]

He must be struggling to find those Harris and Lammy quote sources or maybe he's busy copy and pasting the usual "Take a breath" "Why are you acting all hurt?" Or " That's unhinged".

Happy contrarian Friday everybody!

 

[McTallshort]

I've been hearing that since the day the war started yet here we are over 3 years later and they're still going. Hats off to them. Unbelievable bravery.

Still going and in control of most of their country while hitting the Russians both in Ukraine and Russia. If we had a tough uncompromising leader of the free world we could finish the Putin regime off......

 

[TommiG88]

Out of interest. can we vote to ban people from the forum? The democratic way

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[Which Tyler]

He's just intentionally being an obtuse **** now.

Now?

 

[BrokenWing]

Out of interest. can we vote to ban people from the forum? The democratic way

You can ignore them. The thing with emotional vampires is if you don’t give them the fuel they need they eventually get bored.

 

[TommiG88]

You can ignore them. The thing with emotional vampires is if you don't give them the fuel they need they eventually get bored.

Oh they are blocked, but it just spoils decent debates