• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

Unless I'm mistake, there's a court battle to be had before the regions can join an Anglo-Welsh league? That strikes me as just as uncertain. There's also the question of whether they'll still be wanted in the AP in five years time, or whether they'll be offered such a generous pot to do so - more uncertainty - and how well they cope with the WRU retaliation. I'm not saying the regions should have stayed, but to call this the only obvious thing to do seems a little strong.

Also the WRU may have recorded pre-tax profits of only GBP2.2m but when you consider a revenue of GBP61m, higher than a lot of other unions, one suspects a certain amount of jiggery-pokery with the figures and that, if the WRU were so inclined, there's probably a lot more money to be shared out. Ireland got GBP54m and with that money, they've centrally contracted virtually the entire Irish squad and are subsidising at least 15 foreign player contracts, I'm not sure whether Connacht's count.

The regions know what tournament they're signing up for in the Premiership, same can't be said for the Pro12 and HEC. Also 5 years time will be too late if they sign up with the WRU, the regions will be dead as a competitive force for good. So yes, it is indeed very obvious if you want competitive domestic rugby to remain in Wales.
 
Good lord. You read Andy "Poison Dwarf" Howell and take it seriously? That was a farcical propaganda article by a staunch anti-regions journalist. And in this case, it happened to be the thickest most moronic one there is. Surely you could see that? A press conference sells 0 tickets. They could have sent Sam Warburton and Alun-Wyn Jones there and no more would have been sold as press conferences don't sell tickets. That article was a blatant piece of propaganda and there was no actual merit in the point, yet you fell for it. Unbelievable. The derbies have been great occasions and have seen some the best Welsh crowds of the season.

Yes, I usually hate Andy Howell as well. However regardless of how you look at things, the press conference to promote the festive derbies was a complete hash. It is what happened, regardless of whether Howell used it to grind his axe. As I said, the good crowds at the derbies over the Christmas period happened despite the regions' marketing, not because of it. It's an example of how ineffective and amateurish the regions have been at promoting themselves, and for the rest of the year the crowds don't automatically show up.

The only promotional exercise I can think of which grabbed my attention was the excellent pricing of the Ospreys family season tickets recently. After all, the Millenium Stadium double header was more a brain child of the WRU, and was/is promoted by them.

Steve Tandy was appointed just as the squad was being dismantled. His appointment was a cost cutting measure along with the main squad. It's not an Ospreys policy to give ex players the role. Holley was an interim so as not to rush the following appointment. Cardiff Blues have a Turk in Phil Davies in charge, and the Dragons have Neath's Lyn Jones. Also Dai Young being given the job too early doesn't mean it was a Blues policy, and his backroom staff wasn't Cardiff dominated for the most part. Darren Edwards never played for the Dragons and got the role after coaching Harlequins backs for a couple seasons, again that was just a promotion from within due to cost issues rather than a policy of appointing ex players of the region.

As I said, the only team that has a policy of that is the Scarlets who have Easterby, Mark Jones, Garan Evans all currently there and previously Nigel Davies, Phil Davies and Gareth Jenkins. The other regions appointments were for other reasons.

There is also a stark hypocrisy to your point. Criticising the appointments of the likes of Darren Edwards when these recent appointments were due to the regions being squeezed financially. Applauding the WRU for trying to starve the regions and then criticising the cheap coaching appointments that result from it is a bit dull to be honest. Have you been reading a lot of Andy Howell lately?

Maybe not all necessarily 'jobs for the boys' then, but still terrible choices, and most genuine supporters called it from the off. It's not just because they were under financial pressure either, it's because they've picked these ex players, or young coaches who have very, very little experience in coaching to oversee the pinnacle of our domestic game. How long has it taken the Blues to get Dale McIntosh involved, a coach who's been doing the business in the Prem for quite a while. Look at the difference he's made at the Blues, their defence is completely transformed. Good on the Blues for finally getting him involved, but it was still a few years late, and something I've been calling for for quite a while. There are options out there.

It's not like the regions invested in top quality coaches while they were in positions to do so. I suppose the Ospreys tried by recruiting Scott Johnson and Andrew Hore (no idea why Hore, a fitness coach with Wales, was given the role he was though), but that didn't work out. The Dragons have finally seen sense and recruited well in their coaching structure, even if that money could have gone on a player or two, and the difference has been stark between last season and this season.

The "Galacticos" (a term created by the Western Mail ****wits by the way), the Ospreys had good success in the RaboPro12 throughout that period. But for the main tournament in Europe, they did have some notable results but had some bad luck with some notably horrific pool draws and getting robbed in Biarritz. The Heineken Cup is not a very tough tournament to win, a lot has to fall in place to do so. Munster and Leinster had several years of failure before getting the trophy. Stade Francais and Biarritz both had very good sides for periods but the trophy passed them by. Leicester over a consistent period the best side in England for years yet haven't won it for 12 years. Clermont are scintillating at their best yet have never won.

If you really think the Ospreys lack of success in Europe was all down to being in tough draws, robbed in Biarritz and bad luck, then you need to wake up. They had the players, but they didn't have the coaching in place, simple as that. Lyn Jones is doing well at the Dragons, but he and his colleagues weren't up to the task at the time of getting the best out of that star-studded team. They rarely played as a unit, and as such they failed. Yes they deserved to win that game against Biarritz, but that's how things go sometimes. The best teams (the ones who have won the HC) raise above that, and make damned sure the game is won so that any duff refereeing decision don't cost them the game. Best not to bring up Munster or Saracens in the knock-out stages....

No Welsh side has a chance of even getting out of the group now. Mostly thanks to the regions being starved and losing all their top players. Which, sadly, is what you seem to be in favour of. Welsh domestic rugby turning even ****ter. In this case it's not just blaming all woe on the WRU, in this case the WRU are responsible for the vast majority of the current mess.

I am still unsure throwing more money at the regions would solve anything. They have been uncompetitive in the HC for the past few seasons, even before the great exodus began. Sure, losing these players isn't helping matters in the slightest, but there is more to the regions' demise than losing these players, and it's been evident for quite some time.

And on the final point, the regions will all get more money in the Premiership from the BT Sport deal, and in turn be in a better place to sign and keep better players. Another thing which you are against of course. For the regions it's a choice of either join the Premiership and survive or lose to the WRU and just die as any sort of competitive entity for good.

BT are offering them £16m, they currently get £15.3m (£9m from TV rights of the Pro12 and HC, and £6.3m from the WRU). Wow, an extra £175k per region, they'll be able to compete with everyone!

Of course I don't want to see it happen. Why would I want to see Ireland, Scotland and Italy left in the lurch? It simply isn't an option for me.

Edit. Ok, I get your point regarding guaranteed revenue because at the moment the revenue coming in from Europe is uncertain. However this is a problem which is facing everyone, it's not something the WRU can magically fix. It still shouldn't give the right for the regions to jump ship of the Pro12, after all where would Welsh rugby be without the Magners/Pro12?
 
Last edited:
Yes, I usually hate Andy Howell as well. However regardless of how you look at things, the press conference to promote the festive derbies was a complete hash. It is what happened, regardless of whether Howell used it to grind his axe. As I said, the good crowds at the derbies over the Christmas period happened despite the regions' marketing, not because of it. It's an example of how ineffective and amateurish the regions have been at promoting themselves, and for the rest of the year the crowds don't automatically show up.

The only promotional exercise I can think of which grabbed my attention was the excellent pricing of the Ospreys family season tickets recently. After all, the Millenium Stadium double header was more a brain child of the WRU, and was/is promoted by them.

That Howell article was probably him just ****** off at not getting quotes from bigger players. Nobody else cared about the press conference, it made no difference to the ticket sales. It was pathetic propaganda by Howell, you shouldn't fall for it.

The regions for the first time have managed to get a sponsor with Domino's for this week of games, and the Scarlets and Dragons both had their best crowds of the season and the Blues their second highest crowd. How is that an example of "how ineffective and amateurish" the promoting was?

They made mistakes in their branding, but those can be fixed. And hopefully will be when they get in the Premiership.

Maybe not all necessarily 'jobs for the boys' then, but still terrible choices, and most genuine supporters called it from the off. It's not just because they were under financial pressure either, it's because they've picked these ex players, or young coaches who have very, very little experience in coaching to oversee the pinnacle of our domestic game. How long has it taken the Blues to get Dale McIntosh involved, a coach who's been doing the business in the Prem for quite a while. Look at the difference he's made at the Blues, their defence is completely transformed. Good on the Blues for finally getting him involved, but it was still a few years late, and something I've been calling for for quite a while. There are options out there.

It's not like the regions invested in top quality coaches while they were in positions to do so. I suppose the Ospreys tried by recruiting Scott Johnson and Andrew Hore (no idea why Hore, a fitness coach with Wales, was given the role he was though), but that didn't work out. The Dragons have finally seen sense and recruited well in their coaching structure, even if that money could have gone on a player or two, and the difference has been stark between last season and this season.

The choices are largely through lack of money. Money you are saying should be taken away. The Dragons wouldn't have appointed Edwards, nor the Ospreys Tandy in an ideal world. But there simply isn't the cash to bring in names like Nick Mallett and Andy Robinson into the regions. They were forced to.

If you really think the Ospreys lack of success in Europe was all down to being in tough draws, robbed in Biarritz and bad luck, then you need to wake up. They had the players, but they didn't have the coaching in place, simple as that. Lyn Jones is doing well at the Dragons, but he and his colleagues weren't up to the task at the time of getting the best out of that star-studded team. They rarely played as a unit, and as such they failed. Yes they deserved to win that game against Biarritz, but that's how things go sometimes. The best teams (the ones who have won the HC) raise above that, and make damned sure the game is won so that any duff refereeing decision don't cost them the game. Best not to bring up Munster or Saracens in the knock-out stages....

As I said it's not an easy tournament to win. Better sides than the one the Ospreys had have failed. They had that team for about 5 seasons before it was dismantled. If there was the money to keep it then there was a chance they could go onto better things. Leinster failed for years before they got their name on the trophy, ditto Munster. In fact the years before Leinster first won in 2009 they had been knocked out in the quarter finals or a nightmare pool draw (2007/08) for several years before that. The likes of Stade Francais and Clermont both had better sides than the Ospreys over the past decade and haven't got over the line. There are numerous reasons the Ospreys didn't get further, too many to list here, but one that doesn't help was the Wales' 4th international wrecking preparations for the tournament as well.

I am still unsure throwing more money at the regions would solve anything. They have been uncompetitive in the HC for the past few seasons, even before the great exodus began. Sure, losing these players isn't helping matters in the slightest, but there is more to the regions' demise than losing these players, and it's been evident for quite some time.

Well it would solve one thing the exodus of course. The demise of the Ospreys and others is losing all these players by the way, don't be stupid. How was the Ospreys demise evident before 2011? The Blues have been hit similarly. The Scarlets are being hit now.

BT are offering them £16m, they currently get £15.3m (£9m from TV rights of the Pro12 and HC, and £6.3m from the WRU). Wow, an extra £175k per region, they'll be able to compete with everyone!

Of course I don't want to see it happen. Why would I want to see Ireland, Scotland and Italy left in the lurch? It simply isn't an option for me.

Well in that case. Let's be honest. You don't have the interests of a competitive Welsh domestic game at heart. It will die otherwise.

Edit. Ok, I get your point regarding guaranteed revenue because at the moment the revenue coming in from Europe is uncertain. However this is a problem which is facing everyone, it's not something the WRU can magically fix. It still shouldn't give the right for the regions to jump ship of the Pro12, after all where would Welsh rugby be without the Magners/Pro12?

Probably in a lot better state. Pro12 is ****.
 
BT are offering them £16m, they currently get £15.3m (£9m from TV rights of the Pro12 and HC, and £6.3m from the WRU). Wow, an extra £175k per region, they'll be able to compete with everyone!
That £6.3m is for player release. Surely the WRU will still have to pay something towards player release, bringing up the £16m, or else they won't get access to the international squad? I can't imagine it being allowed that the WRU take the players and pay nowt.

On top of this, the Premiership is growing as a competition, so should bring in more money over time, and ticket sales will jump a lot. More than anything, I think that the ticket sales will be the money-maker. If there's something we know about the English-Welsh rivalry, it's that a lot of people like to sit down and watch it. A surprising fact is that Ospreys have had the second highest-selling rugby shirt in the UK and Ireland for every year from 2006 to 2012 (http://www.southwales-eveningpost.c...r-supporters/story-19609102-detail/story.html). This seems to indicate to me that fans are willing to back the regions, but not the Pro12. The Premiership is taken very seriously by the English and I think that the attitude will pour over into Wales. For a start, they'll get so many more travelling fans on average (purely because it's easier to travel within a country), and I think games against Glos/Bath will see unprecedented travelling fans from a non-Welsh team. The atmosphere will be a lot grander. Also, and I think that this is an important point, remember that the Premiership sell their television rights to BT. Not everyone has access to, or wants to get BT. Comparatively, the Pro12 rights go to the BBC/S4C, which nearly everyone has. What's the incentive to go to a game with a drab atmosphere when you can watch it for free at home? Welsh fans will finally face the dilemma of whether they buy a sports package, or go to the stadium, and many will opt for the latter.
 
Scarlets last season got about the same crowd against Exeter (in the HEC no less) as they did against Ulster and Munster, with Leinster far higher. Season before that, identical crowds for Glasgow and Northampton, more for Munster than both.

Blues last season got less to see Sale than they did for Zebre and Treviso to pick just a couple - it was more in keeping with their crowd for Glasgow and Edinburgh. Season before that London Irish was about the biggest non-Welsh draw of the season to be fair.

Ospreys last season, Leicester was comfortably bigger than anything but the Welsh derbies, but season before that bigger crowds for Treviso and Biarritz - tiny crowds that season incidentally, with a massive leap the next season, fair dos to whoever did their marketing (also winning stuff helps).

That's a pretty lazy look at the stats but the idea that the Anglo-Welsh rivalry will really get things going, that tons of English fans will travel, and that Welsh fans start really turning up if it's not the Pro 12... looks untrue.

Two other things

1 - If you want to watch rugby at home without paying more than your licence fee (if that) it's really easy regardless of broadcaster.

2 - It is incredibly likely that the WRU will refuse to make any payments for out of window release to the regions - and that's the only thing they do have to pay for - and smilingly inform Welsh internationals that they regret that preference must be given to players who have release clauses in their contract, such as North, or the guys in France, or the guys at the new Welsh clubs. Like, I cannot guarantee this is what is going to happen, but it seems the most likely possibility.
 
I'll leave the other points, as I think they've run their course, and I agree with some of the points you make, such as the current coaching set-ups at the regions have certainly been forced due to financial woes. Whether those financial issues are solely down to the WRU not giving them more money I hotly debate however.

Well it would solve one thing the exodus of course. The demise of the Ospreys and others is losing all these players by the way, don't be stupid. How was the Ospreys demise evident before 2011? The Blues have been hit similarly. The Scarlets are being hit now.

The Ospreys demise was evident before 2011 by the fact that they still failed to draw consistently large crowds, even despite having a side packed full of Welsh international players and quality foreigners.

Whilst the deal offered to the regions to centrally contract the players was a broken one, their offer to temporarily centrally contract a number of out of contract players was a fair enough offer imo. The regions have obviously decided that they would prefer to lose those players altogether, so they're not exactly helping themselves either.

Well in that case. Let's be honest. You don't have the interests of a competitive Welsh domestic game at heart. It will die otherwise.

So you think that the only possible solution is to abandon the nations that enabled regions to be formed in the first place (England wouldn't have taken us into the Prem in 2003), and join the Aviva Premiership? If we don't, the Welsh domestic game is dead. While we're at it we'll be giving up any control of the league in which we play. What would happen if in 5 years the PRL decide that they don't want the regions any more because the European dispute has been settled? Expect the other Pro12 nations to take us back in? It's just such a short sighted view imo, and a selfish one at that. I deeply care for Welsh rugby, why else would I be on here every week commenting on regional matches, but I think there's a solution to this whole mess that doesn't involve fu***ng over others in the process.

Probably in a lot better state. Pro12 is ****.

What, the Principality Premiership? Because that would still be the top tier of the Welsh domestic game without the Pro12.
 
The professional teams fit within a structure that spans all the way from minis to internationals.

If one part of the structure is focused on to the detriment of the others (if said part is not the foundations), then the structure is in danger of collapse.

If professional teams within any nation are allowed to significantly siphon money out of the game that would otherwise fund:
- youth tournaments
- pitch development
- coach development
(just for example)

Then long term, the game will suffer.


That is before you even consider the division between different nations.


The monies from ERC in countries outside of England are not necessarily distributed in a manner reflecting the RFU/PRL distribution system. Same with funds from international games.


If you are going to present an argument based on what is best for the majority - you should maybe consider the boundaries of what you consider to be the constituents.

You're stating the blindingly obvious which has no bearing on my comment.

But....just to please you....i had a word with a bloke who knew someone who had the figures for how many of your 99% agreed or disagreed with the PRL's etc stance on the HC. I'm still waiting on the results, and it may be a long while, but hopefully we should know how your 99% see and feel about a tournament they have no history in and about how it is run and financed.

Until then i'll stick with the 79% of current mostly experienced teams i mentioned before. :rolleyes:
 
So you think that the only possible solution is to abandon the nations that enabled regions to be formed in the first place (England wouldn't have taken us into the Prem in 2003), and join the Aviva Premiership? If we don't, the Welsh domestic game is dead. While we're at it we'll be giving up any control of the league in which we play. What would happen if in 5 years the PRL decide that they don't want the regions any more because the European dispute has been settled? Expect the other Pro12 nations to take us back in? It's just such a short sighted view imo, and a selfish one at that. I deeply care for Welsh rugby, why else would I be on here every week commenting on regional matches, but I think there's a solution to this whole mess that doesn't involve fu***ng over others in the process.

Then the Regions and the WRU need to sit down and play nice for once in their lives.

The WRU actually has to talk to the other stakeholders in Welsh rugby instead of acting like this Soviet monolith regurgitating the same press releases requiring a doctorate in Kremlinology or a decade observing the subtle changes in the North Korean political order to decipher.

It is all very well and good saying that the regions shouldn't abandon their partners in the Pro12, etc, etc but at the moment these regions - through a combination of neglect by the WRU and their own hapless mismanagement - are facing the very real prospect of vanishing from the scene.

You see the regions screwing over others to save themselves. I however see the regions basically putting a gun to their head and shooting themselves if they stay in the Pro12 without a new agreement with the WRU.

It isn't the best solution but right now if the WRU don't offer the regions a better deal then joining an expanded Premiership will safeguard Welsh domestic rugby for the medium term. I would be incredibly surprised (not to mention appalled and embarrassed) if PRL suddenly decided four years down the line to ​summarily eject four of its members on the basis of "sorry boyos but it just ain't working out! Hwyl fawr and all that jazz!" That would be highly irregular even for the current politics of European rugby.

I believe the sands are shifting yet again with a new "British & Irish Cup" now being mooted which will leave the French and Italians out in the cold but would preserve the Pro12 I guess?

--

I'd like to address one issue elsewhere. Outside of France, where do professional teams siphon money out of the game to the detriment of that same sport?

Certainly not in England. The clubs these days fund coaching schemes and youth rugby tournaments to local amateur clubs in their catchment areas, they fund academies which scout for young aspiring talent up and down this land. They help organise and sometimes fund other rugby initiatives in their area and promote the game in schools.

Saracens trains coaches in Rugby clubs across Herts & Essex. They run youth tag tournaments. They go into schools in North London to teach the game and they contribute to the "HITZ" charity program in their area (as do other PRL clubs in theirs) to help shepherd kids away from gangs, drugs and violence.

Independent, professional clubs making a big difference to their communities and promoting the game we love. Isn't that what we all want?
 
Last edited:
Ugh! Posts too long to read at this time of night.

Has anyone mentioned the interview during the Blues v Dragons game where they talked about the 'deadline to discuss participation' where the regions were told they weren't allowed to comment or somesuch.....I expect they have... I'm tired, going to sleep.

I need thread summary bullet points people! Bullet points! ;)

Apparently the WRU and RRW are going back to the negotiation table. I hear every successful negotiator from Kofi Anan to Senator George Mitchell are being flown in to try and find a solution to the impasse ;)
 
Then the Regions and the WRU need to sit down and play nice for once in their lives.

About the only way this will be solved is:

- WRU centrally contract some players
- WRU fund regions to the same degree (or slightly less) than they do currently.
- The funding increase comes from the central contracts.


I cannot see the WRU increasing the funding the regions get since they have largely spent it unwisely to date.
I cannot see the regions accepting the current funding as they cannot be competitive with it (for whatever reason).
 
Last edited:
About the only way this will be solved is:

- WRU centrally contract some players
- WRU fund regions to the same degree (or slightly less) than the do currently.
- The funding increase comes from the central contracts.

Apparently the funding package for the British & Irish Cup being negotiated will give the Welsh Regions the extra £1 million they need to become viable. This gleamed from John Taylor's column on ESPN Scrum.

The issue with centrally contracting players is that the WRU have insisted that the money for this come from the existing pot of money put aside to "help" the regions keep their players which means it is a false economy for the regions. The WRU need to agree to point 2 there (WRU fund regions more / regions get more money from somewhere) for that to work.

I'm thinking that at under £19 million now the Millennium Stadium debt is manageable enough for the WRU to cut back on debt repayment to fund central contracts or even a system similar to the RFU where the regions are rewarded for developing new talent.
 
The issue with centrally contracting players is that the WRU have insisted that the money for this come from the existing pot of money put aside to "help" the regions keep their players which means it is a false economy for the regions.

Yeap, I know - thats why I think a net increase will have to come in terms of:

central contracts + WRU cheque = bigger total than current

even if the WRU cheque decreases a little.
 
I completely agree that the WRU need to provide extra finding to the regions, what I don't agree with is blindly throwing money at them to do as they like, because to date they haven't spent the money they do get wisely (the Cardiff Blues paying for both CAP and CCS being a prime example).

The WRU's offer to centrally contract players wasn't a fair one for the regions, however there was no negotiations by the regions to see if a middle ground could have been found.
 
Only in your closed mind.

If the unions are cut out of the financial aspect of the game, then all funding for the aforementioned withers.

If you can point to where i have said that and also to the relevance of my original post to which you insist on being pedantic.

And if you choose to get personal....I think most on here know who has the closed mind.

Nuff said. :zzz:
 
That's really funny, especially when you consider in France the players can write in release clauses and that's that, but in England the PRL has final say (or their club cops a fine).
 

Latest posts

Sponsored
UnlistMe
Back
Top