The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[dullonien]

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/210227.html

Have I already said how much I dislike the WRU?

What we see here is the well-respected and widely-used negotiation tactic of pi**ing the other party off.

Yeah, if true that would be rather silly.

However it has to be said that the WRU have offered to temporarily centrally contract the players out of contract, keeping them at the regions, which the regions refused. I suppose the regions think that doing so could be a slippery slope towards central contracts across the board.

Still, this would be a move to at least keep players like AWJ, Warbs and 1/2p tied with Welsh rugby, not lost entirely for the next few years to clubs in England or France. As they would just be loaned to English clubs there's every chance that they could return to Wales next season when things will have hopefully been resolved.

Still, it would be a farcical situation. A very under-handed way for the WRU to begin centrally contracting players, something they seem desperate to do.

 

[psychic duck]

I'll leave the other points, as I think they've run their course, and I agree with some of the points you make, such as the current coaching set-ups at the regions have certainly been forced due to financial woes. Whether those financial issues are solely down to the WRU not giving them more money I hotly debate however.

It is down to the WRU, they are trying to starve the regions. It is just stupid of you to moan about "incompetent regions appoint poor coaches" when it was the WRU who have forced this situation on them.

Whilst the deal offered to the regions to centrally contract the players was a broken one, their offer to temporarily centrally contract a number of out of contract players was a fair enough offer imo. The regions have obviously decided that they would prefer to lose those players altogether, so they're not exactly helping themselves either.

The offer to centrally contract players was a **** one. The regions had no choice to lose their players as they were simply poor value. They are in international squads for a considerable amount of time and the regions don't get value back for it. The WRU take the players and the regions get £1.2m fund, to put that in context the RFU gives the Premiership clubs £13.75m for the EPS squad agreement.

So you think that the only possible solution is to abandon the nations that enabled regions to be formed in the first place (England wouldn't have taken us into the Prem in 2003), and join the Aviva Premiership? If we don't, the Welsh domestic game is dead. While we're at it we'll be giving up any control of the league in which we play. What would happen if in 5 years the PRL decide that they don't want the regions any more because the European dispute has been settled? Expect the other Pro12 nations to take us back in? It's just such a short sighted view imo, and a selfish one at that. I deeply care for Welsh rugby, why else would I be on here every week commenting on regional matches, but I think there's a solution to this whole mess that doesn't involve fu***ng over others in the process.

It's not "****ing over others". The Irish and the Scots are more than welcome to apply to join leagues themselves, and their players are free to play in any. If the WRU wanted the regions to stay in the Pro12 then they should compensate the regions for internationals fairly. They are starving the regions financially in the Pro12, the regions are free to find their own solutions to make the money and stay competitive. The alternative for them is just to die.

You clearly don't care about Welsh domestic rugby. The Irish and Scottish having the Pro12 (which finances are dominated by the Welsh TV deal by the way) is more important to you. You want to see Welsh domestic rugby die. A bit treacherous really.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

You clearly don't care about Welsh domestic rugby. The Irish and Scottish having the Pro12 (which finances are dominated by the Welsh TV deal by the way) is more important to you. You want to see Welsh domestic rugby die. A bit treacherous really.

Having a different point of view isn't tantamount to wanting to see Welsh rugby die. It's merely wishing to explore the alternatives.

Where did you see that finances are dominated by the Welsh TV deal? I'm not disputing it just I've never seen evidence of it. I do know that Rabodirect have a base in Ireland and no base in Scotland, Wales or Italy so the Pro 12's title sponsorship is attributed to Irish involvement. Before that the previous sponsor was Bulmers (trading as Magners) which is another Irish company.


In related news "Championship chief labels Anglo-Welsh league 'scandalous'". However apparently Bristol and Leeds voted for Welsh teams in the Premiership in the event of no European competition.

 

[psychic duck]

Having a different point of view isn't tantamount to wanting to see Welsh rugby die. It's merely wishing to explore the alternatives.

Where did you see that finances are dominated by the Welsh TV deal? I'm not disputing it just I've never seen evidence of it. I do know that Rabodirect have a base in Ireland and no base in Scotland, Wales or Italy so the Pro 12's title sponsorship is attributed to Irish involvement. Before that the previous sponsor was Bulmers (trading as Magners) which is another Irish company.


In related news "Championship chief labels Anglo-Welsh league 'scandalous'". However apparently Bristol and Leeds voted for Welsh teams in the Premiership in the event of no European competition.

You've not understood the situation snoopy. If the WRU get their way then Welsh domestic is done for good as competitive force. It would be comparable to the Scottish domestic rugby situation which Dullonien is happy with and that the WRU is currently starving the regions so that all the top Welsh players are leaving. The WRU have got this utterly wrong and are acting in a threatening and deluded manner. The WRU is transfixed about gaining control over the regions even though the PWC report into the running of the game suggested they didn't have the money to do it without the private investment.

The RRW statement said "With the significant proposed contribution of £3.2m from Welsh television to secondary TV rights for Pro12, why is the estimated contribution from Irish TV only £910,000 and from Scottish TV only £140,000?"

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

You've not understood the situation snoopy. If the WRU get their way then Welsh domestic is done for good as competitive force. It would be comparable to the Scottish domestic rugby situation which Dullonien is happy with and that the WRU is currently starving the regions so that all the top Welsh players are leaving. The WRU have got this utterly wrong and are acting in a threatening and deluded manner. The WRU is transfixed about gaining control over the regions even though the PWC report into the running of the game suggested they didn't have the money to do it without the private investment.

The RRW statement said "With the significant proposed contribution of £3.2m from Welsh television to secondary TV rights for Pro12, why is the estimated contribution from Irish TV only £910,000 and from Scottish TV only £140,000?"

Thanks for providing the statement. I won't dispute the accuracy of RRWs figures since I don't have the actual figures and the other participating nations haven't replied. Some things that can be argued:
1. Ireland is responsible for the title sponsorship of the league (since it's the only market in which RaboDirect has a presence) which benefits the other nations.
2. The FIR had to pay an entry fee of €3m to join the league which the other nations benefit from.
3. Welsh regions were temporarily removed from the then Celtic League in 2005 for doing a solo run and signing up for an Anglo-Welsh Cup (now the LV= Cup), undermining their primary competition. They were readmitted when they agreed to compensate the other nations. Subsidizing others is something they and the WRU agreed to.
4. Sky are on board from next season. Supposedly it increases TV revenue by 50%. Ireland would be seen as thecrowl jewel for Sky with 6.4 million people living on the island (compared to 5.3 million in Scotland and 3.1 million in Wales), a much larger support base and (treading carefully with demographic classification) a rugby supporting population with generally higher disposable income i.e. potential for more subscribers.

It could be argued that Ireland and Scotland have benefited in the past from Welsh TV deals but Wales has benefited from an Italian entry fee, Irish led sponsorship and a new Sky TV deal brought on largely by an Irish audience.

On the other point, what I'm trying to say and I suspect Dullonien is trying to say is that all options should be explored before the nuclear scenario of an Anglo-Welsh League is pursued. Welsh regions have to look after their own interests but the costs have to be weighed up. An Anglo-Welsh League guarantees the regions survival in the short term but it negatively impacts on 3 nations. If the sport in Ireland, Italy and Scotland dwindles, what then? The 6 Nations, the biggest cash cow of all, ceases to be competitive and money for that dries up. A middle ground must be found.

I believe the middle ground with be a B&I Cup instead of the Heineken Cup as Stephen Jones said in today's Sunday Times. Where does that leave Italy? Do they join a continental European competition under the guidance of the FFR/FIRA-AER while remaining in the Pro 12? Every action has a consequence. We should be aware of this before jumping feet fist into any agreement.

Anything that may damage the sport in any of the 6 Nations countries is bad for the sport.

I know you don't agree with myself or dullonien but can you at least see where we're coming from? Understanding the other argument is the first step in getting the problems resolved. It worked to an extent in Northern Irish politics after God knows how many years of violence!

 

[psychic duck]

Thanks for providing the statement. I won't dispute the accuracy of RRWs figures since I don't have the actual figures and the other participating nations haven't replied. Some things that can be argued:
1. Ireland is responsible for the title sponsorship of the league (since it's the only market in which RaboDirect has a presence) which benefits the other nations.
2. The FIR had to pay an entry fee of €3m to join the league which the other nations benefit from.
3. Welsh regions were temporarily removed from the then Celtic League in 2005 for doing a solo run and signing up for an Anglo-Welsh Cup (now the LV= Cup), undermining their primary competition. They were readmitted when they agreed to compensate the other nations. Subsidizing others is something they and the WRU agreed to.
4. Sky are on board from next season. Supposedly it increases TV revenue by 50%. Ireland would be seen as thecrowl jewel for Sky with 6.4 million people living on the island (compared to 5.3 million in Scotland and 3.1 million in Wales), a much larger support base and (treading carefully with demographic classification) a rugby supporting population with generally higher disposable income i.e. potential for more subscribers.

It could be argued that Ireland and Scotland have benefited in the past from Welsh TV deals but Wales has benefited from an Italian entry fee, Irish led sponsorship and a new Sky TV deal brought on largely by an Irish audience.

On the other point, what I'm trying to say and I suspect Dullonien is trying to say is that all options should be explored before the nuclear scenario an Anglo-Welsh League is pursued. Welsh regions have to look after their own interests but the costs have to be weighed up. An Anglo-Welsh League guarantees the regions survival in the short term but it negatively impacts on 3 nations. If the sport in Ireland, Italy and Scotland dwindles, what then? The 6 Nations, the biggest cash cow of all, ceases to be competitive and money for that dries up. A middle ground must be found.

I believe the middle ground with be a B&I Cup instead of the Heineken Cup as Stephen Jones said in today's Sunday Times. Where does that leave Italy? Do they join a continental European competition under the guidance of the FFR/FIRA-AER while remaining in the Pro 12? Every action has a consequence. We should be aware of this before jumping feet fist into any agreement.

Anything that may damage the sport in any of the 6 Nations countries is bad for the sport.

I know you don't agree with myself or dullonien but can you at least see where we're coming from? Understanding the other argument is the first step in getting the problems resolved. It worked to an extent in Northern Irish politics after God knows how many years of violence!

There's nothing to stop the Irish or Scottish applying to join other tournaments if they want and their players would also be free to play for any other clubs as well. The regions shouldn't kill their domestic game on behalf of them, after all the Irish have hardly shown any support whatsoever as the regions are getting run to the ground by the WRU.

If the regions were to remain in the Pro12 then the WRU had to increase their pathetic offers to compensate the regions for providing and releasing the internationals. They are hellbent on control (which the PWC report suggested they couldn't afford) and didn't, so it's only sensible for the regions to look to find the funds required through the Premiership and BT money. I didn't see much Irish concern at the regions situation nor did I see them put any pressure put on the WRU to change their position that forced the regions to refuse the PA.

You say "anything that may damage the sport in any of the 6 Nations countries is bad for the sport", but that clearly is not a view shared by the IRFU who didn't seem to care much that the Welsh domestic scene is getting damaged with a mass exodus of players. From what I've read of the media, the Irish completely don't understand this situation and the differences between the nations.

 

[psychic duck]

WRU bunker 31.12.13

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

There's nothing to stop the Irish or Scottish applying to join other tournaments if they want and their players would also be free to play for any other clubs as well.

There is something to stop the Irish and Scottish teams joining up with another league - the fact that they're run by Unions and both PRL and LNR wanted to cut out Union involvement as much as possible. Can you accept that point?

If the best players in Europe were concentrated in just the English and French leagues, do you think that would be good for the game on this continent?

after all the Irish have hardly shown any support whatsoever as the regions are getting run to the ground by the WRU.

What could "the Irish" do? I'm genuinely curious to know how they could have helped the situation. Do they support RRW with whom they've no involvement or the WRU who are a participant in the 6 Nations and who have common interests?

If the regions were to remain in the Pro12 then the WRU had to increase their pathetic offers to compensate the regions for providing and releasing the internationals. They are hellbent on control (which the PWC report suggested they couldn't afford) and didn't, so it's only sensible for the regions to look to find the funds required through the Premiership and BT money. I didn't see much Irish concern at the regions situation nor did I see them put any pressure put on the WRU to change their position that forced the regions to refuse the PA.

So it's A or B, the WRUs way or RRWs way with no negotiation involved? That's how your post reads. There's always middle ground which is what I'm suggesting. That's something which some people find hard to grasp.

You say "anything that may damage the sport in any of the 6 Nations countries is bad for the sport", but that clearly is not a view shared by the IRFU who didn't seem to care much that the Welsh domestic scene is getting damaged with a mass exodus of players. From what I've read of the media, the Irish completely don't understand this situation and the differences between the nations.

My point that "anything that may damage the sport in any of the 6 Nations countries is bad for the sport" holds. If Welsh rugby is damaged, it's bad for rugby in general since it's a minority sport. You keep bringing the IRFU into this as though I should have to answer for them! It's interesting to read that "the Irish completely don't understand this situation and the differences between the nations". Does everyone in Ireland have the same opinion on everything because that's what you seem to be saying!

RRW have to get off their asses and help themselves. They've failed to do that until the last few months. Why couldn't they be pro-active in the previous 10 years? WRU for their part have to quit their bullying tactics.

 

[dullonien]

I think it's obvious that it's half a dozen of one, half a dozen of the other. Comments by many of the lower clubs show that in general the regions don't really interact with the clubs in their regions, the people they are meant to represent. There's a pretty damning comment by the press officer at Ystradgynlais, stating that they have very limited contact with the Ospreys, despite Dan Baker, an ex player of their being in their squad. Yet Leicester thanked them and provided a coach for 50 youngsters to go watch a game etc. now that Owen Williams (another ex player) is in their squad. Maybe shows why Leicester are one of the best supported clubs in Britain and the O's struggle to attract spectators.

At the same time, some clubs aren't happy with the job the WRU are doing at grassroots level.

The reason I'm siding with the WRU in this, is that they have shown that they can be successful, in the way they have run the international team over the past 8 or so years. I also believe that central contracts are the way forwards in terms of retaining top players, because I think the WRU will have more persuasion than the regions, and the ability to offer more money if required, although they will still struggle to match wages available in France. This doesn't mean I agree with everything the WRU do, or the way they have handled this mess, but unfortunately I have even less faith in the regions atm, just the way I see it.

And yes, I want to see a resolution that doesn't leave the other Pro12 nations out in the cold. Doesn't mean I want to see Welsh rugby do down the pan, or the regions' demise. I think the WRU proposal of setting up new regions is silly, although in an ideal world I'd love to see the regions borders changed and re-branded, not that it's all that viable.

Duck, I've managed to debate this topic without resorting to personal attacks, for the want of a better word (attacks is a little strong), but I don't particularly appreciate the comments that I want to see Welsh domestic rugby die, when in reality I want the complete opposite, but hopefully not at the detriment of others. If all else fails, despite the WRU and regions working together (hopefully they will eventually), then it may have to happen to avoid total collapse, but until that point I'm not going to back them joining the English Prem. I'd back a British and Irish league 100%, which I'm sure BT would be willing to pay a lot for, as long as Italy are included somewhere.

 

[smartcooky]

Comments by many of the lower clubs show that in general the regions don't really interact with the clubs in their regions, the people they are meant to represent. There's a pretty damning comment by the press officer at Ystradgynlais, stating that they have very limited contact with the Ospreys, despite Dan Baker, an ex player of their being in their squad. Yet Leicester thanked them and provided a coach for 50 youngsters to go watch a game etc. now that Owen Williams (another ex player) is in their squad. Maybe shows why Leicester are one of the best supported clubs in Britain and the O's struggle to attract spectators.

That is compeltely the opposite of what we have here. The Provincial Unions (both ITM Cup and Heartland Championship) and the Regional Franchises have very close ties.

In our Crusaders Franchise region, even before the earthquakes, Crusaders have regularly had Provincial Unions host both pre-season and regular season matches in place like....

ITM Cup Provinces
Nelson (Tasman)
Blenheim (Tasman)
Motueka (Tasman)

Heartland Championship Provinces
Timaru (South Canterbury)
Ashburton (Mid Canterbury)
Westport (West Coast)
Greymouth (Buller)

The host provinces are allowed to keep the gate takings, with the Crusaders taking the financial "hit" by paying for all their own expenses as if they were "away" games, and all for the good of the game overall in their region.

If the Welsh Regions are not involved closely with the clubs in their region, then that is a big, big mistake on their part. They are missing out on a huge opportunity to promote the game within their regions.

Just as an example, for the last few seasons the Hurricanes have been playing pre-season matches at the Mangatainoka Rugby Club's ground, which is little more than a farmer's paddock over the summer. Each January, local farmers, contractors and earth movers get together to level the field, remove sheep ruts and throw up a temporary grandstand. The little ground, which ususally sees a crowd of 3 to 400 for a club game on a good day, always gets an 8,500 sellout for this match, bringing in the crowds from the surrounding Wairarapa and Manawatu regions.



Maingatainoka's main claim to fame is that it's the home of one of the country's best known breweries, "Tui"

Now if the Welsh Regions are not availing themselves of opportunities like this, they they are doing their Region and the Clubs with it, a huge disservice. Its no wonder the WP clubs are p¡ssed off with them.

 

[dullonien]

If the Welsh Regions are not involved closely with the clubs in their region, then that is a big, big mistake on their part. They are missing out on a huge opportunity to promote the game within their regions.

snip.

Now if the Welsh Regions are not availing themselves of opportunities like this, they they are doing their Region and the Clubs with it, a huge disservice. Its no wonder the WP clubs are p¡ssed off with them.

I'm sure the Ospreys have good working relationships with many clubs to be fair, as would the other regions. It is important to remember that Ystradgynlais is a division 5 team, not a Premiership club, so I don't want to blow these things completely out of the water.

Still, there are a number of clubs saying similar things on Wales Online (I know it's a sh**ty website that may have picked which clubs to report on, but it's the only source), so it is of some concern that the regional franchises aren't doing as much as they possibly can to involve those in their regions, especially because there seems to be a lot of Welsh rugby fans who still haven't taken to regional rugby. If the regions were seen to be pro-active in their support and inclusion of these small clubs, then that could win over fans.

Also, it has to be said that the Ospreys have done more than any of the regions to make a proper go of it. The other regions are easily viewed as being super clubs (Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli), but the Ospreys can't necessarily. There's a Neath-Swansea bias maybe (black kit = Neath, Liberty Stadium = Swansea), but they have attempted to integrate, with the different flashes of colour on their kit each season representing a different club in the region etc. So this certainly isn't me picking on them, I think the other 3 regions are worse in most regards, but I think across the board all four should have been doing more to promote themselves in their region, maybe then attendance figures would be higher, which would help somewhat with the financial side of things.

That coupled with an increase in funding from the WRU is what we really need to see, and maybe the WRU would be more willing to provide that increase in funding if the regions had been ran well. One area of funding the WRU should release to the regions is the ridiculous bonuses players receive whilst playing for Wales. They add up into the millions if Wales win a grand-slam etc. The players shouldn't require this incentive to give their all for Wales, and it doesn't help keep them in Wales. A middle ground could be to only offer these bonuses to Welsh based players, it certainly could act as some form of incentive to stay in Wales, without going the whole hog of not selecting players playing outside of Wales.

 

[psychic duck]

I'm sure the Ospreys have good working relationships with many clubs to be fair, as would the other regions. It is important to remember that Ystradgynlais is a division 5 team, not a Premiership club, so I don't want to blow these things completely out of the water.

Still, there are a number of clubs saying similar things on Wales Online (I know it's a sh**ty website that may have picked which clubs to report on, but it's the only source), so it is of some concern that the regional franchises aren't doing as much as they possibly can to involve those in their regions, especially because there seems to be a lot of Welsh rugby fans who still haven't taken to regional rugby. If the regions were seen to be pro-active in their support and inclusion of these small clubs, then that could win over fans.

Also, it has to be said that the Ospreys have done more than any of the regions to make a proper go of it. The other regions are easily viewed as being super clubs (Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli), but the Ospreys can't necessarily. There's a Neath-Swansea bias maybe (black kit = Neath, Liberty Stadium = Swansea), but they have attempted to integrate, with the different flashes of colour on their kit each season representing a different club in the region etc. So this certainly isn't me picking on them, I think the other 3 regions are worse in most regards, but I think across the board all four should have been doing more to promote themselves in their region, maybe then attendance figures would be higher, which would help somewhat with the financial side of things.

That coupled with an increase in funding from the WRU is what we really need to see, and maybe the WRU would be more willing to provide that increase in funding if the regions had been ran well. One area of funding the WRU should release to the regions is the ridiculous bonuses players receive whilst playing for Wales. They add up into the millions if Wales win a grand-slam etc. The players shouldn't require this incentive to give their all for Wales, and it doesn't help keep them in Wales. A middle ground could be to only offer these bonuses to Welsh based players, it certainly could act as some form of incentive to stay in Wales, without going the whole hog of not selecting players playing outside of Wales.

Another disgraceful propaganda piece from the Western Fail. They chose 10 clubs out of 300 odd purposely to slate the regions for their agenda. Someone on the Ospreys forum said that their club was interviewed and gave a good account of the region but it didn't make the article.

Also forget the attendance things, it wouldn't make a difference. There is no demand for the Rabo, especially when they can watch every single match on TV for free.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Whatever about not liking what was said in that link, do you think there's nothing at all the regions can take from it?

If I'm in charge of one of the regions, I'd take the article very seriously even if it's unbalanced. With Premier League football in Cardiff and Swansea, surely the regions should be bending over backwards to help their feeder clubs and make sure the younger generation of supporters in particular grow up to be rugby rather than football fans.

If I may twist it to something I'm more familiar with, Leinster had very little presence outside Dublin until 7 or 8 years ago. They got their **** together, promote provincial clubs on their website (there's an entire domestic rugby section), have half time mini games involving 4 clubs from all over the province, send out free flags, banners etc, send players out for coaching clinics, hold pre-season training all over the east of Ireland, offer free and discounted tickets and bus services in bulk to schools that want them and are now reaping the benefits. At underage representative level, clubs teams are increasingly made up of players from backwater areas on the outskirts of the province. At senior level, merchandise and ticket sales are far better than they were in the past.

Leinster learned their lesson. If Welsh regions view articles like the Western Mail piece as just "another disgraceful propaganda piece", they'll be doing their fans and potential fans a massive disservice.

Every Ulster, Leinster and Munster Rabo game is also on TV yet fans come out and watch those teams in far greater number than go to games in Wales. Are Irish fans that much different to Welsh fans?

 

[psychic duck]

Whatever about not liking what was said in that link, do you think there's nothing at all the regions can take from it?

If I'm in charge of one of the regions, I'd take the article very seriously even if it's unbalanced. With Premier League football in Cardiff and Swansea, surely the regions should be bending over backwards to help their feeder clubs and make sure the younger generation of supporters in particular grow up to be rugby rather than football fans.

If I may twist it to something I'm more familiar with, Leinster had very little presence outside Dublin until 7 or 8 years ago. They got their **** together, promote provincial clubs on their website (there's an entire domestic rugby section), have half time mini games involving 4 clubs from all over the province, send out free flags, banners etc, send players out for coaching clinics, hold pre-season training all over the east of Ireland, offer free and discounted tickets and bus services in bulk to schools that want them and are now reaping the benefits. At underage representative level, clubs teams are increasingly made up of players from backwater areas on the outskirts of the province. At senior level, merchandise and ticket sales are far better than they were in the past.

Leinster learned their lesson. If Welsh regions view articles like the Western Mail piece as just "another disgraceful propaganda piece", they'll be doing their fans and potential fans a massive disservice.

Every Ulster, Leinster and Munster Rabo game is also on TV yet fans come out and watch those teams in far greater number than go to games in Wales. Are Irish fans that much different to Welsh fans?

That's what it is though. For a start it's 10 clubs out of 300 odd hardly a large percentage, with word out that they were hand picked (3 on their Twitter feed have also claimed to be misquoted as well) and written by a journalist with an outstanding track record of ****wittery and who writes for a paper edited by Alan Edmunds who just so happens to be a good friend of Roger Lewis.

And regarding Leinster, don't you think that possibly having the most successful European team in the history of the tournament maybe have a little something to do about bigger crowds? I do. Also comparisons between Ireland and Wales are flawed, the Irish have bigger catchment areas, and better funded and more successful teams with no competition from Premier League football.

I think many are unrealistic on what the Welsh crowds can be like, they were not amazing "back in the day" as some make out (see 2002/03 H Cup crowds), and realistically they are not going to be filling out football stadia. Getting 15,000 and 13,000 for the West Wales derbies were very good crowds, especially considering that the teams are being dismantled currently. Playing in a better product, with more successful team, with more fan friendly KO times and less free TV matches and more away support would see an improvement.

 

[smartcooky]

I think many are unrealistic on what the Welsh crowds can be like, they were not amazing "back in the day" as some make out (see 2002/03 H Cup crowds), and realistically they are not going to be filling out football stadia. Getting 15,000 and 13,000 for the West Wales derbies were very good crowds, especially considering that the teams are being dismantled currently. Playing in a better product, with more successful team, with more fan friendly KO times and less free TV matches and more away support would see an improvement.

Wales is is very similar to New Zealand in some respects,

► The populations are similar (3 million for Wales, 4½ million for NZ).
► Rugby is the No. 1 sport.
► In Wales, Rugby faces Football as the No. 1 competitor while in NZ, it also faces football to a far lesser extent, as well as Rugby League.

As far as catchment area, Wales (20, 700 sq miles ) is about the same physical size as my regional team, the Tasman Rugby Union (22,400 sq miles). The vast majority of the Welsh Population (about 2.2 million) live and work in this narrow strip along the southern end of the country.....

Its comparable in area to the Marlborough Region (the eastern Province of Tasman RU) the population there is about 45,000, and its about half the size of the Nelson Region, (the western Province of Tasman RU) which has a population of about 96,000.

Tasman plays in the ITM Cup Championship (promoted to the Premiership for next season) yet despite the supposed population disadvantages and a geographic distribution in which east and west is divided by a drive over two passes through two, 3500 ft ranges of hills, they consistently get 5000 to 10,000 people attending games in both provinces. All games are live on Sky Sport.

Its had this sort of draw ever since it was formed a eight years ago (despite large number of fans opposed to the merger; Nelson and Marlborough have a bitter historical rivalry. It draws from a larger area than any region in Wales, from less than 10% of the Welsh population, and you're telling me that Welsh Regions can only draw about the same number of people to games.

If we had a 500,000 people living in Tasman, we would have to build bigger stadia to accommodate the 30,000+ we would be drawing every match.

 

[dullonien]

Another disgraceful propaganda piece from the Western Fail. They chose 10 clubs out of 300 odd purposely to slate the regions for their agenda. Someone on the Ospreys forum said that their club was interviewed and gave a good account of the region but it didn't make the article.

Also forget the attendance things, it wouldn't make a difference. There is no demand for the Rabo, especially when they can watch every single match on TV for free.

I agree that they probably selected ones that would make the biggest impact (nothing new there), but either way, if there are clubs out there that think that, then the regions still aren't doing their jobs properly imo. Obviously it would be difficult for the regions to be massively involved with every club, but just look at what Leicester provided for a club that in reality means nothing to them. If that's how they deal with some small club in South Wales who helped develop a minor player in their squad, then I can imagine that they do much more for the smaller clubs in Licestershire.

I'm not quite sure I agree with you about it being solely the Pro12's fault either. It's not like the regions' attendances have been all that great for HC matches against quality opposition, and that's considered by many to be the best club competition in the world. The Pro12 doesn't help, but it's only part of the puzzle.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

That's what it is though. For a start it's 10 clubs out of 300 odd hardly a large percentage, with word out that they were hand picked (3 on their Twitter feed have also claimed to be misquoted as well) and written by a journalist with an outstanding track record of ****wittery and who writes for a paper edited by Alan Edmunds who just so happens to be a good friend of Roger Lewis.

And regarding Leinster, don't you think that possibly having the most successful European team in the history of the tournament maybe have a little something to do about bigger crowds? I do. Also comparisons between Ireland and Wales are flawed, the Irish have bigger catchment areas, and better funded and more successful teams with no competition from Premier League football.

I think many are unrealistic on what the Welsh crowds can be like, they were not amazing "back in the day" as some make out (see 2002/03 H Cup crowds), and realistically they are not going to be filling out football stadia. Getting 15,000 and 13,000 for the West Wales derbies were very good crowds, especially considering that the teams are being dismantled currently. Playing in a better product, with more successful team, with more fan friendly KO times and less free TV matches and more away support would see an improvement.

Let's just say I hope the Welsh regions take constructive criticism on board. That's what the Western Mail article offers.

Leinster won their first Heineken Cup in 2009. Before that:
In 2003 they got 37,000 to see them play Perpignan, 46,000 through the gate for Biarritz in the knockouts and sold out Donnybrook twice.
In 2004 they moved from Donnybrook to Lansdowne Road got 14,000 for a pool game against Sale and 23,000 for a pool game against Cardiff.
In 2005, 13,000 saw them play Treviso, 14,000 for Bath and 48,500 for Leicester.
In 2006 they moved to the more suitably sized RDS and got over 11,000 for each pool game, 48,000 against Munster.
In 2007 the RDS was being redeveloped. They got 23,000 versus Gloucester and 19,000 against Agen. In the Celtic League 48,000 saw them play Ulster.
In 2008, they got over 16,000 in the RDS three times.

From those figures, I'd say they were heading in the right direction before Heineken Cup success. Wouldn't you?

On "the Irish have bigger catchment areas", Belfast metro area is smaller than Cardiff metro area. Ulster would also be historically supported by 50% of the population up there (they would have had very small Nationalist support). Ulster's crowds are better. Munster play big games in Limerick, a city of 91,000 people. Limerick is an hour to 90 minutes away from Cork which is by far the biggest urban area in the region (around 400,000 people). Still Munster get 20,000 fans through the gate. Success may have played a part but before they won a Heineken Cup, Munster were pulling capacity crowds of 12,000 into Thomond Park.

I think Welsh regions should realistically be looking to pull 10,000 fans through the gate each week regardless of what league they're in. People have romantic notions of scores of English fans coming to west Wales to see their club play Scarlets. It won't happen. They don't even travel to easier to get to spots!

 

[psychic duck]

Let's just say I hope the Welsh regions take constructive criticism on board. That's what the Western Mail article offers.

Leinster won their first Heineken Cup in 2009. Before that:
In 2003 they got 37,000 to see them play Perpignan, 46,000 through the gate for Biarritz in the knockouts and sold out Donnybrook twice.
In 2004 they moved from Donnybrook to Lansdowne Road got 14,000 for a pool game against Sale and 23,000 for a pool game against Cardiff.
In 2005, 13,000 saw them play Treviso, 14,000 for Bath and 48,500 for Leicester.
In 2006 they moved to the more suitably sized RDS and got over 11,000 for each pool game, 48,000 against Munster.
In 2007 the RDS was being redeveloped. They got 23,000 versus Gloucester and 19,000 against Agen. In the Celtic League 48,000 saw them play Ulster.
In 2008, they got over 16,000 in the RDS three times.

From those figures, I'd say they were heading in the right direction before Heineken Cup success. Wouldn't you?

On "the Irish have bigger catchment areas", Belfast metro area is smaller than Cardiff metro area. Ulster would also be historically supported by 50% of the population up there (they would have had very small Nationalist support). Ulster's crowds are better. Munster play big games in Limerick, a city of 91,000 people. Limerick is an hour to 90 minutes away from Cork which is by far the biggest urban area in the region (around 400,000 people). Still Munster get 20,000 fans through the gate. Success may have played a part but before they won a Heineken Cup, Munster were pulling capacity crowds of 12,000 into Thomond Park.

I think Welsh regions should realistically be looking to pull 10,000 fans through the gate each week regardless of what league they're in. People have romantic notions of scores of English fans coming to west Wales to see their club play Scarlets. It won't happen. They don't even travel to easier to get to spots!

Simply not happening. There is no demand to watch the likes of Connacht, Zebre, Treviso, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc. Especially with a considerable percentage of those fixtures involving two sides vastly understrength, and all of them for TV for free. That's half the league that it makes a loss to play. Premiership would get much better crowds, there is more demand to see the likes of Worcester and London Irish than the teams in equivalent positions in the Pro12 and more demand to see Leicester than one of joke games such as the Munster/Ospreys game we saw this season with B teams. And the amount of fans travelling from England to Wales would definitely be a lot more than the non existent amount the Pro12 sides bring by the way.

I wish people would stop comparing the Irish crowds to the Welsh crowds. They are different countries with different circumstances as I said before, Welsh domestic rugby has never filled 20,000 stadiums week in week out and nor will it. Also Leinster and Munster were getting into the knockout rounds year in year out before they won the Heineken Cup. When Cardiff Blues last got to the knockout stages in 2009 they got 37,000 and 44,000 and that was just the once they have got host Heineken Cup knockouts. Ospreys never had a home knockout game but still got good crowds of 18,000 to see Leicester and Gloucester play in the HEC. There would be glory hunters and event goers in Wales just like Ireland if there was the equivalent success as well. You're not going to get massive crowds however when you're team is in the process of being starved and dismantled, playing a load of meaningless games, and getting knocked out of the only meaningful tournament early.

On the subject of Irish crowds I am dubious to the accuracy of some of the figures. I watched Munster/Ospreys last November and it looked sparsely attended, the figure given on the Munster website looks very generous unless they dumped all the fans on the non TV side.

 

[Amiga500]

Simply not happening. There is no demand to watch the likes of Connacht, Zebre, Treviso, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc.

There isn't great demand to watch the likes of Leinster, Toulon or Toulouse either.

Even against English opposition in the HEC, the crowds are not great.


You'd be safer just facing up to the issues; one of the below must be true:
- the Welsh do not like the regions.
- the Welsh don't support anyone but the national team.
- rugby is not the national game in Wales. Soccer is, or if not soccer, there is nothing worthy of being called the 'national game'.



2013-2014
Ospreys vs Leinster: 12,378
Cardiff vs Toulon: 11,573
Scarlets vs R Metro: 8,388
Scarlets vs Clermont: 7,591

2012-2013
Scarlets vs. Leinster: 9,555
Cardiff vs. Toulon: 9,624
Scarlets vs. Exeter: 7,512
Ospreys vs. Toulouse: 10,110
Ospreys vs Leicester: 13,126
Scarlets vs Clermont: 7,167
Cardiff vs Sale: 7,473

Cardiff Arms Park capacity: 12,500
Park y Scarlets: 14,870
Liberty Stadium: 20,532

So, you've some of the biggest teams in Europe in the biggest club competition in Europe. Yet, not one of those attendances approached the capacity of the grounds.

 

[psychic duck]

There isn't great demand to watch the likes of Leinster, Toulon or Toulouse either.

All those attendances are still better than the comparable Rabo games. Welsh domestic rugby has never had 20,000 week in week out and won't in the forseeable future, realistically in the current climate (all Welsh sides knocked out by round 2) that Toulon crowd is good for the Blues and their highest of the season. They are not going to be selling 20,000 tickets against any side whilst the team loses to Zebre.

Also you've isolated games from when the regions are being starved and dismantled and their competitiveness is dwindling. The Blues got 44,000 for the HEC semi with Leicester in 2009, and 37,000 in the quarter. The Ospreys got 18,000 for pool games with Leicester and Gloucester, and got a good crowd for the EDF semi with Saracens in 2008. The derby double header last season got 36,000. There is demand for the derbies and competitive sides in the HEC and Premiership there is no market for the Rabo with games against Connacht, Munster reserves and the Scots and Italians.

And if the regions end up staying in the Rabo, then the attendances will drop further by the way. They will be more on a par with the Scots. If there is limited market for good sides in the Rabo, then there will minute market for **** sides who've lost all their players. Competitive Welsh domestic rugby dies for good under Roger Lewis.