Ireland World Cup 2019 Thread aka "Quarter Final 4"

[Groundhog]

I definitely think Stander has suffered from being ridiculously easy to identify as the primary carrier with Munster as he may as well have a sign over his head that says 'Route 1'. A 7 he is not. I think it's a bit unfair to criticise O'Mahony too much. He's got little parity in the last few games against top class opposition which doesn't look great but he was class while we were in form earlier in the season against the likes of Ex. Easy to forget what he adds, but he can change the momentum of a game. I take Muffs point that it's easier to look good in Leinster in the sense they're in better form, better coached and have all the pieces. It's not a get out of jail with regards to dropping mind, but I don't see his form as all that bad,I just inconsistent. I definitely agree that we need to vary the pack more, but imagine the back row will end up 6.POM 7.VDF and 8.Stander, but for the record I'd put Conan at 8 and would take your hand off to have Leavy. Wouldn't drop O'Mahony, and to be honest I'd be shocked if we do.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'd add I'm not saying I'd keep Stander over Conan. Just pointing out I can't see Schmidt making that call. Conan is the better player in wider channels and yes has more variety. And equally in an ideal world no player should be undroppable. Agree with @Groundhog that POM is being highly targetted here but I would add that no other 6 has really put their hand up.
Ruddock has not been good. Not bad but not good.
Beirne - Is not playing 6 so has no form.
Henderson - The same story.

Fact is the 6 order is POM and then if POM drops it will be CJ at 6. Jordi is probably next in line then.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

POM is the best fit backrow we have, the only problem is he has to be accommodated by the other two in ways we can't really provide for without Leavy.

POM, VdF, Stander has worked but also been bullied off the park. Without CJ being in his 2016/17 form I think Conan is a better and more varied option but regardless we need our backrow to be a lot more nuanced than the 6 nations and that comes before any selection dilemma at 8. As things stand though the four players mentioned in this post make the 23.

 

[munstermuffin]

POM is the best fit backrow we have, the only problem is he has to be accommodated by the other two in ways we can't really provide for without Leavy.

POM, VdF, Stander has worked but also been bullied off the park. Without CJ being in his 2016/17 form I think Conan is a better and more varied option but regardless we need our backrow to be a lot more nuanced than the 6 nations and that comes before any selection dilemma at 8. As things stand though the four players mentioned in this post make the 23.

The thing is though Alpha there is genuinely no other candidate on form as a 6. It's easy say Beirne or Henderson but they aren't playing there. CJ at a push but not as good as POM and Ruddock hasn't been good. I agree Conan deserves to be ahead of CJ at moment on form and believe a POM Conan Van Der Flier is balanced some bit. But bigger fact os we are not a big physical backrow regardless of who is there and need to think how to combat being bullied regardless of who plays

 

[bushytop]

The crazy thing is, off the back of last year we all (myself included) were hailing the riches within the Irish backrow as having the most depth in the world... now with Leavy injured, there seems to be a vulnerability to all other backrow combos. I know we haven’t seen Bierne at 6 yet for Ireland (& that club rugby is vastly different to international test matches) but having seen him there for the Scarlets quite a few times, he really could be the answer. I think that Joe should make it a priority to give him some game time at blindside during the warm ups as his ability to both carry and win turn overs could be the perfect compliment to JVF’s work rate... with Conan at 8.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I'd add I'm not saying I'd keep Stander over Conan. Just pointing out I can't see Schmidt making that call. Conan is the better player in wider channels and yes has more variety. And equally in an ideal world no player should be undroppable. Agree with @Groundhog that POM is being highly targetted here but I would add that no other 6 has really put their hand up.
Ruddock has not been good. Not bad but not good.
Beirne - Is not playing 6 so has no form.
Henderson - The same story.

Fact is the 6 order is POM and then if POM drops it will be CJ at 6. Jordi is probably next in line then.

Well I'd say disagree that Ruddock hasn't been good but I'd agree not enough to displace POM who I'd agree should start. My ideal scenario right now would be 6. POM 7. Vdf 8. Conan. Stander coming off the bench would be a genuinely terrifying prospect as well. I'd agree that CJ is probably next in line at 6 but I wouldn't be surprised to see Beirne or Henderson play there at some point during the warmups.

Like I've said this before but the four mentioned above with Jordi makes the most sense. Gives you decent cover in all three positions, Conan and Stander at 8 with Jordi able cover, Vdf and Jordi with POM able to cover at 7 and then POM with the Henderson/Beirne/CJ/Jordi all able to do a job at 6.

I'm not entirely sold on POM and Vdf as flankers together, as others have said it's a very lightweight, but I don't see any alternatives, what I wouldn't give for Leavy. Best way to counteract it is to pick Henderson and actually get some physicality at hooker from Cronin and Scannell, I don't know which I'd start but they're easily the two best hookers in the country.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well I'd say disagree that Ruddock hasn't been good but I'd agree not enough to displace POM who I'd agree should start. My ideal scenario right now would be 6. POM 7. Vdf 8. Conan. Stander coming off the bench would be a genuinely terrifying prospect as well. I'd agree that CJ is probably next in line at 6 but I wouldn't be surprised to see Beirne or Henderson play there at some point during the warmups.

Like I've said this before but the four mentioned above with Jordi makes the most sense. Gives you decent cover in all three positions, Conan and Stander at 8 with Jordi able cover, Vdf and Jordi with POM able to cover at 7 and then POM with the Henderson/Beirne/CJ/Jordi all able to do a job at 6.

I'm not entirely sold on POM and Vdf as flankers together, as others have said it's a very lightweight, but I don't see any alternatives, what I wouldn't give for Leavy. Best way to counteract it is to pick Henderson and actually get some physicality at hooker from Cronin and Scannell, I don't know which I'd start but they're easily the two best hookers in the country.

From what I've seen of Ruddock as I said wasn't poor but not anywhere near a standard to ask questions of getting in to the squad. And I am a fan of him.

Also agreed that VdF and POM is light but no other alternative really is heavyweight and well dropping POM I think really hurts our defensive lineout massively. Van Der Flier is vital as he is a worldclass 7 but also our only 7 at the moment. And Conan or CJ at 8 won't change much in terms of dynamics.
Yes Tadgh or Henderson adds something in terms of physicality but we do loose alot more than we gain I think.

 

[big ginger 8]

You're all forgetting Ruddock will be injured for the world cup anyway the lad hasn't seen an international window he can't be injured for yet...

In all likelihood one more backrower will get injured which will leave us in a very interesting position of picking someone with a lot of promise but little experience or someone who's shown their ceiling as a handy provincial player. I'd nearly be tempted then to bring an extra lock and let one of Henderson or Beirne get time in the backrow in the pool stages.

I agree that if we start POM and VDF that Henderson should really start in the row.

It's really amazing given who we have at second row that you all know it's not Ryan I'm talking about swapping out. The guy is incredible and I really hope he gets a chance to show just how good he is at this WC.

 

[big ginger 8]

Also I'd disagree Conan instead of Stander wouldn't change much in terms of our dynamics. One area Stander has always struggled in even at his best and Conan excels in is distribution. It's been notable that we've been trying to use Stander and Aki to suck in players before getting them to release the ball to a line in behind. I feel it's one of the reasons our attack has been so blunted as neither of them is particularly good at it, their strengths lie elsewhere. Bringing in Conan and Henshaw would likely see a big improvement in this area pretty much immediately because while they're arguably worse at crashing it up they're both still pretty good at it and are far better distributors.

EDIT:
https://twitter.com/noriordan/status/1133012649090981888?s=19

Kearney signs one year contract. Probably the right length, for both parties.

 

[munstermuffin]

Also I'd disagree Conan instead of Stander wouldn't change much in terms of our dynamics. One area Stander has always struggled in even at his best and Conan excels in is distribution. It's been notable that we've been trying to use Stander and Aki to suck in players before getting them to release the ball to a line in behind. I feel it's one of the reasons our attack has been so blunted as neither of them is particularly good at it, their strengths lie elsewhere. Bringing in Conan and Henshaw would likely see a big improvement in this area pretty much immediately because while they're arguably worse at crashing it up they're both still pretty good at it and are far better distributors.

EDIT:
https://twitter.com/noriordan/status/1133012649090981888?s=19

Kearney signs one year contract. Probably the right length, for both parties.

Think you may have misread. Meant in terms of physicality. Of course CJ and Conan are 2 different types of 8.
And again don't disagree on Conan and Henshaw on attack but again can't see Schmidt dropping a favourite of his like CJ especially when he's not on form. Yes Conan is in much better form but equally CJ isn't awful

 

[Jockstap]

Think you may have misread. Meant in terms of physicality. Of course CJ and Conan are 2 different types of 8.
And again don't disagree on Conan and Henshaw on attack but again can't see Schmidt dropping a favourite of his like CJ especially when he's not on form. Yes Conan is in much better form but equally CJ isn't awful

Will CJ's off field issue be sorted by the WC?

 

[munstermuffin]

Will CJ's off field issue be sorted by the WC?

100%. Was more a scare for Jean-Marie but yes and look knowing CJ he will deny anything distracted him.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

So get this straight for me. People are worried about Ireland getting bullied because England bullied Ireland and saracens bullying Leinster. That seems like an overreaction.

Did wales bully Ireland? With navidi, Tipuric and moriarty? Doubt it. Because of Wyn Jones? The guy is a grandad, was the worst lock on the park in every game he played during the British and Irish lions tour. That includes a game against a team that locks not in super rugby . All you have to do is play a slightly fast game against him and he’s rendered obsolete at best.

So, England, or saracens, same diff. Yes they will bully you. They can afford to play b Vunipola without losing anything, as they have reasonably versatile locks and can play a genuine 7. Then Vunipola can bully, and their 6 options are also essentially locks, so big boys. They’ve got a good mix that will bully you. In saying that, wales beat them.

Maybe you can play differently against England? Or maybe you can just not play crap. Let’s be honest, against England, and a million times over against wales, you played poorly.

 

[Groundhog]

Training Squad announced

Forwards (24)
Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 9 caps
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 117 caps
Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster) 5 caps
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 14 caps
Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 68 caps
Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht) 14 caps
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 33 caps
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 88 caps
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster) 44 caps
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 7 caps
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 29 caps
Jean Kleyn (Munster) 0 caps
Jack McGrath (St Marys College/Leinster) 54 caps
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Ulster) 27 caps
Tommy O’Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 12 caps
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 57 caps
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 14 caps
Rhys Ruddock (Lansdowne/Leinster) 21 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 18 caps
Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 14 caps
CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 31 caps
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 64 caps
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps

Backs (20)
Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 17 caps
Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 2 caps
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Munster) 18 caps
Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht) 3 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 12 caps
John Cooney (Terenure College/Ulster) 8 caps
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps
Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 5 caps
Mike Haley (Munster) 0 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 37 caps
Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 17 caps
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 90 caps
Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 13 caps
Kieran Marmion (Galwegians/Connacht) 25 caps
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 10 caps
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 72 caps
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 20 caps
Rory Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 3 caps
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps
Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 19 caps

Unavailable due to injury
Dan Leavy (Leinster)
Sean O’Brien (Leinster)

Haley and Kleyn the two uncapped inclusions. Very very broad squad of course and I haven't copped big omissions yet.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's Conway in. No Byrne or Addison is disappointing especially with DK even though he's had an good season.

Don't see any bolters tbh.

 

[Groundhog]

Surprised not to see those two actually. Adison can play a couple positions, Byrne has been v good and I don't think Haley is there yet personally. Rarely cuts teams apart but he's solid in all aspects I suppose.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Rory Scannell over McCloskey is just b******t.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Addison has a back injury doesn't he?
Think I heard he's not back till next season

Delighted for Haley

 

[Groundhog]

Addison has a back injury doesn't he?
Think I heard he's not back till next season

Delighted for Haley

Think you're right there now I think of it. Think he's due back before WC though.
No Tom Farrell in there either actually.

 

[munstermuffin]

No Will Addison.

I think Kleyn may be the bolter and backrow may be an interesting battle. Kleyn may go freeing Henderson or Beirne to 6 and POM as 2nd choice 7 too.

Mike Haley will need to have a stormer in games he is capped in to make it. But fact Larmour has looked much better on the wing mixed with his lack of exposure as a 15 really then maybe Haley as a slim chance. However it's hard to see it.
Forwards (24)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 117 caps
Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster) 5 caps
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 14 caps
Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 68 caps
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 33 caps
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 88 caps
Iain Henderson (Queens University/Ulster) 44 caps
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 29 caps
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Ulster) 27 caps
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 57 caps
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 14 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 18 caps
Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 14 caps
CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 31 caps
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 64 caps
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 17 caps

Backs (20)
Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 17 caps
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Munster) 18 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 12 caps
John Cooney (Terenure College/Ulster) 8 caps
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps
Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 5 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 37 caps
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 90 caps
Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 13 caps
Kieran Marmion (Galwegians/Connacht) 25 caps
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 72 caps
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 20 caps
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps
Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 19 caps

This is the squad I can see going. Maybe Kleyn to oust Jordi although I still don't think that is or should be the case.

The real question is I've never seen an RWC without a bolter or injuries so it will be fun to watch.