Ireland World Cup 2019 Thread aka "Quarter Final 4"

[Leinster Fan]

Irish backrow got marginalised

POM is well suspected but he's not a dynamic player at Int'l level
Great at lineouts & useful over the ball but is ponderous compared to his peers
Matera Underhill PSDT Navidi A Savea etc

JVDF is okay Small undersized flanker who makes alot of passive tackles
Again decent over the ball like POM but again Underhill & Curry are way better
players

Stander looks bang average compared to B Vunipola
Time to start Coman who I rate highly

Itoje as well is several order more skilful & impactful than James Ryan

Stockdale rushing up & in has been an issue for a while
Was bloody awful for Ulster vs Glasgow in Pro 14 Semi Final

Irish defence was breached on the edges multiple times
Felt like I was a rerun of 2015 RWC QF when Los Pumas carved up the Irish

The most concerning part was that the Irish had a week off whilst ENG had come off
back to back tough matches against Welsh

Andy Dunne is looking wise with his observations

Van der Flier can be very effective but needs others to pick up the carrying slack, I'm not sure that he and POM together work. Stander has been average for two years now, how anyone can claim he should be starting ahead of Conan based off the evidence of the last few years is utterly beyond me.

Don't know how you're getting there about Ryan, he's our best and most consistent player by a mile at this point. He's never really played a game where he wasn't easily one of our best players.

Stockdale's form is worrying but he's worth persevering with. Aki is our fourth best centre at best, needs to be binned now, he's been poor over the last year and has only been getting in the team because Henshaw and Ringrose can't stay fit together.

I'd disagree about the week off though, this was effectively our first game for most of these players, going up against a team that have come off two rough physical games is always going to be tough. Yesterday was ugly but too early to start panicking.

 

[Lion]

Hey folks. Long time reader, first time poster.

Glad to see questions being raised about POM, as I feel he really gets a lot of leeway compared to others before him and it’s almost a no-go area to question it.

What I find is if the pack are being bullied then he’s next to useless. He needs the front five to perform so he can have any impact at the breakdown. We saw this yesterday, against England and Wales in the 6N and it was only recently I remembered that it was the same in the first test against New Zealand for the Lions. He’s a world class lineout operator and has had some great moments for us, but those have always been when there’s a battle at the breakdown at the very least. He plays well when we’re in the game, but when we’re looking for someone to step up and turn the tide, it’s not him.

That game yesterday was crying out for Rhys Ruddock. Someone who can attack the gain line and try to give Ireland some go forward ball by being absolutely dogged when carrying.

Stander I don’t think is helped by the fact that he’s the only real carrier in that back-row. VDF is alright but it’s his work-rate that shines rather than his carrying. He’s a monster. I do think Conan would give teams more to think about however.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Hey folks. Long time reader, first time poster.

Glad to see questions being raised about POM, as I feel he really gets a lot of leeway compared to others before him and it’s almost a no-go area to question it.

What I find is if the pack are being bullied then he’s next to useless. He needs the front five to perform so he can have any impact at the breakdown. We saw this yesterday, against England and Wales in the 6N and it was only recently I remembered that it was the same in the first test against New Zealand for the Lions. He’s a world class lineout operator and has had some great moments for us, but those have always been when there’s a battle at the breakdown at the very least. He plays well when we’re in the game, but when we’re looking for someone to step up and turn the tide, it’s not him.

That game yesterday was crying out for Rhys Ruddock. Someone who can attack the gain line and try to give Ireland some go forward ball by being absolutely dogged when carrying.

Stander I don’t think is helped by the fact that he’s the only real carrier in that back-row. VDF is alright but it’s his work-rate that shines rather than his carrying. He’s a monster. I do think Conan would give teams more to think about however.

Welcome to the forum! I'd agree with what you're saying, a Leinster backrow of Vdf, Ruddock and Conan played a Munster backrow with POM and Stander off the park in May and all three should be seeing more time in green. Leavy is a massive loss in that area though.

 

[Lion]

Welcome to the forum! I'd agree with what you're saying, a Leinster backrow of Vdf, Ruddock and Conan played a Munster backrow with POM and Stander off the park in May and all three should be seeing more time in green. Leavy is a massive loss in that area though.

I should add that I don’t mean to pick on POM - I just think he should be held to a higher standard and less excuses should be made for him. If someone like Heaslip turned in that performance on Saturday the knifes would have been out for him by some quarters.

Hooker is a big problem for us. Beat is 37, and plays like it. He’s not the same animal around the breakdown anymore. I’d like to see Scannell get a shot against Wales.

Like it or not, 10 is also a problem. The bombshell that Sexton suffered a leg injury from some rucking drill is a massive worry when Carbery is already touch and go. The silence from the IRFU camp whenever there’s an injury leads me to not trust it’s just a knock, because we’ve been here before. We’re potentially going into a World Cup with only Carty and Byrne fit for Scotland. I have confidence in the pair of them whoever starts to get the job done, but it’s still far from ideal.

However, what on Earth is going on with Conor Murray? He has looked a shadow of himself. His passing is slower, his kicking is inferior, he’s gone back to his laboured efforts to get to the ruck; it’s just really frustrating and he needs to be dropped. Playing him into form has not worked.

And then there’s the row. Every time Toner doesn’t play his stock goes up, even though I think Ryan/Henderson is the best partnership.

If I was the coach (and I am no Joe Schmidt whatsoever!) I would pick the following for Scotland:

Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale; Sexton (if fit, Byrne otherwise), Marmion; Healy, Scannell, Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Stander, van der Flier, Conan.

Reps: Best, Kilcoyne, Porter, Toner, Ruddock/POM (not sure here to be honest), Murray, Carty (whether Sexton is fit or not), Larmour.

Something has to change and it has to change now. Gatland wasn’t afraid to drop BOD and POM for the Lions - it’s time for Joe to show the same level of ruthlessness.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I should add that I don’t mean to pick on POM - I just think he should be held to a higher standard and less excuses should be made for him. If someone like Heaslip turned in that performance on Saturday the knifes would have been out for him by some quarters.

Hooker is a big problem for us. Beat is 37, and plays like it. He’s not the same animal around the breakdown anymore. I’d like to see Scannell get a shot against Wales.

Like it or not, 10 is also a problem. The bombshell that Sexton suffered a leg injury from some rucking drill is a massive worry when Carbery is already touch and go. The silence from the IRFU camp whenever there’s an injury leads me to not trust it’s just a knock, because we’ve been here before. We’re potentially going into a World Cup with only Carty and Byrne fit for Scotland. I have confidence in the pair of them whoever starts to get the job done, but it’s still far from ideal.

However, what on Earth is going on with Conor Murray? He has looked a shadow of himself. His passing is slower, his kicking is inferior, he’s gone back to his laboured efforts to get to the ruck; it’s just really frustrating and he needs to be dropped. Playing him into form has not worked.

And then there’s the row. Every time Toner doesn’t play his stock goes up, even though I think Ryan/Henderson is the best partnership.

If I was the coach (and I am no Joe Schmidt whatsoever!) I would pick the following for Scotland:

Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale; Sexton (if fit, Byrne otherwise), Marmion; Healy, Scannell, Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Stander, van der Flier, Conan.

Reps: Best, Kilcoyne, Porter, Toner, Ruddock/POM (not sure here to be honest), Murray, Carty (whether Sexton is fit or not), Larmour.

Something has to change and it has to change now. Gatland wasn’t afraid to drop BOD and POM for the Lions - it’s time for Joe to show the same level of ruthlessness.

To be fair to Murray I thought he was decent before the elbow to the head, certainly better than anything else we have.

The problem, in my opinion, is clearly in contact. When we were at our best we had Healy, Furlong, Ryan, Leavy, Stander and Aki/Henshaw all getting over the gainline and putting dominant hits. Leavy is gone and Aki and Stander haven't looked like doing that at any decent level this season and the rest of those guys look a shadow of what they are provincially as a result of having to work that much harder so I think those carrying threats need to be replaced. Fortunately we have better players in their positions available to replace Aki and Stander but it still leaves us short a power player.

As has been noted, when he can afford to focus entirely on his strengths POM looks like the best 6 in the world but the only option we have to allow him to do that is to bring in Henderson and that still requires him to be a hell of a lot busier hitting rucks when we're in possession (His breakdown work when we have the ball is nothing short of lazy for a supposed breakdown "specialist") or we get rid of him. There's three other 6s in this country that'd more or less make every other international squad in the world with the exception of South Africa maybe, time to use them because what made our backrow great has stopped working, POM has been totally anonymous since and I don't think Henderson and he can do the offensive rucking work that Toner and AN Other provides between them.

I think the Leinster pack with Scannell has to be strongly considered with Henderson and Beirne on the bench.

 

[Lion]

To be fair to Murray I thought he was decent before the elbow to the head, certainly better than anything else we have.

The problem, in my opinion, is clearly in contact. When we were at our best we had Healy, Furlong, Ryan, Leavy, Stander and Aki/Henshaw all getting over the gainline and putting dominant hits. Leavy is gone and Aki and Stander haven't looked like doing that at any decent level this season and the rest of those guys look a shadow of what they are provincially as a result of having to work that much harder so I think those carrying threats need to be replaced. Fortunately we have better players in their positions available to replace Aki and Stander but it still leaves us short a power player.

As has been noted, when he can afford to focus entirely on his strengths POM looks like the best 6 in the world but the only option we have to allow him to do that is to bring in Henderson and that still requires him to be a hell of a lot busier hitting rucks when we're in possession (His breakdown work when we have the ball is nothing short of lazy for a supposed breakdown "specialist") or we get rid of him. There's three other 6s in this country that'd more or less make every other international squad in the world with the exception of South Africa maybe, time to use them because what made our backrow great has stopped working, POM has been totally anonymous since and I don't think Henderson and he can do the offensive rucking work that Toner and AN Other provides between them.

I think the Leinster pack with Scannell has to be strongly considered with Henderson and Beirne on the bench.

Thing with Stander is his best rugby with Ireland came from when he played 6, and with another carrier in the back-row in Conan he’s no longer the only threat we have. Mix that with Conan’s hands and you have potential for a two-pronged back-row move involving the pair of them.

I’d be happier to try Stander at 6 again, even though Ruddock would probably be my favourite Irish player.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Thing with Stander is his best rugby with Ireland came from when he played 6, and with another carrier in the back-row in Conan he’s no longer the only threat we have. Mix that with Conan’s hands and you have potential for a two-pronged back-row move involving the pair of them.

I’d be happier to try Stander at 6 again, even though Ruddock would probably be my favourite Irish player.

Yeah, I can't disagree with that.

Fortunately I think we'll beat Scotland without much hassle at all so Joe has until the Samoa game to try a few things out, he has to do something to make this tournament anything other than forgettable!

 

[Leinster Fan]

The first and most obvious change, and one that I've seen said almost universally is that Conan has to start at 8. It should have happened ages ago but it has to happen now, there's no two ways about it. With Vfd the only real option at 7 and Toner/Ryan the obvious second row after last week the only real debate from 4-8 is 6, which could go to any of Beirne, Henderson, Stander, O'Mahony and Ruddock. I agree with Alpha that we're short of ball carriers, and also that the first step is to replace Stander and Aki with Conan and Henshaw. Getting rid of Best and replacing him with Cronin or Scannell will also help in that regard. I was actually pretty impressed by Henderson last week excluding the lineout, I think he's worth looking at in the backrow. I'd agree that Stander could be a powerful option at 6 but right now I think the best move is to use him as an impact substitute where he could be genuinely devastating and let him get into form from that, if that works then consider bringing him back at 6 (or 8 if Conan isn't performing). It's time to ditch Kleyn, I understand the logic of giving him a chance and looking at him but he wasnt what we needed or anything like the solution to our problems, we have four much better locks.

In the backs, I though Murray was actually pretty good before the HIA but I'd still start Marmion in Cardiff. I feel sorry for Ross Byrne because he got thrown in with an impossible job against England surrounded by an imploding team but it's Carty's turn to start against Wales. Aki is the fourth best centre, I'd bring him to Japan so that we have two specialist 12s but he's nowhere near Henshaw, Ringrose or even Farrell.

With that in mind, I'd like to see this team against Wales,

1. Kilcoyne
2. Scannell (I'm not against Cronin starting but Scannell deserves this chance)
3. Furlong
4. Toner
5. Ryan
6. Ruddock
7. Murphy (give him a game to see if he's worth taking and we can't afford to risk Josh)
8. Conan
9. Marmion
10. Carty
11. Stockdale
12. Henshaw
13. Farrell (deserves the start and Ringrose has already played twice)
14. Earls
15. Conway
16. Cronin
17. Porter (we have to try it at some point and Ryan needs game time)
18. Ryan
19. Henderson
20. Stander
21. Murray
22. Byrne
23. Larmour

Of those changes, I'm actually pretty confident we'll see at least Scannell and Conan start, probably a few others as well. The one positive from the England game is that it forces Joe to shake things up, the team has gotten a bit stale over the last year, fortunately I think we have answers to most of the questions.

 

[bushytop]

For what it’s worth WoL have published a ‘probable’ Welsh 15 for the warm up against Ireland next week... there is talk that the rumoured XV originated in an Irish article somewhere (though I don’t know). If true, or close to the eventual side it is a very experimental side and while I wouldn’t back us to necessarily get the win, I’d be very interested to see how some of these players go:

15. Hallam Amos
14. Owen Lane
13. Scott Williams
12. Owen Watkin
11. Steff Evans
10. Jarrod Evans
9. Aled Davies
1. Rhys Carre
2. Ryan Elias
3. Samson Lee
4. Jake Ball
5. Bradley Davies
6. Aaron Shingler
7. James Davies
8. Josh Navidi (capt)

Navidi will be Moriarty’s back-up at 8 (while more than likely also being our 1st choice 6) so hoping he does well, particularly with him being captain for the first time. Carre is an absolute beast in the loose (‘could’ eventually be a carrier in the mould of Binny) but it is at scrum time that he needs to prove himself. In the centres it will be between Watkin and Williams to get the third centre birth, so hopefully that will not lend itself to them trying to out do each other... and Jarrod and Lane are two young exciting backs who could add a new dynamic to the attack if they can get some confidence at this level.

 

[Leinster Fan]

For what it’s worth WoL have published a ‘probable’ Welsh 15 for the warm up against Ireland next week... there is talk that the rumoured XV originated in an Irish article somewhere (though I don’t know). If true, or close to the eventual side it is a very experimental side and while I wouldn’t back us to necessarily get the win, I’d be very interested to see how some of these players go:

15. Hallam Amos
14. Owen Lane
13. Scott Williams
12. Owen Watkin
11. Steff Evans
10. Jarrod Evans
9. Aled Davies
1. Rhys Carre
2. Ryan Elias
3. Samson Lee
4. Jake Ball
5. Bradley Davies
6. Aaron Shingler
7. James Davies
8. Josh Navidi (capt)

Navidi will be Moriarty’s back-up at 8 (while more than likely also being our 1st choice 6) so hoping he does well, particularly with him being captain for the first time. Carre is an absolute beast in the loose (‘could’ eventually be a carrier in the mould of Binny) but it is at scrum time that he needs to prove himself. In the centres it will be between Watkin and Williams to get the third centre birth, so hopefully that will not lend itself to them trying to out do each other... and Jarrod and Lane are two young exciting backs who could add a new dynamic to the attack if they can get some confidence at this level.

If that's the case I wouldn't be surprised if Gats and Joe have communicated and we experiment as well, not that that would change much of my team, I'd take out Furlong, Ryan and Stockdale but that's it.

 

[rugga658]

What's the word on the extent of Sexton's injury?

There was a cover up of the initial injury which is dodgy to start with

I would expect him to start in 2nd match vs Wales or there would be
great cause for concern

To go into the 1st RWC match vs Scotland with an injury/fitness cloud
over 1st & 2nd choice #10 would be scary

Sexton would have gone 4 months without playing a game....

 

[Leinster Fan]

What's the word on the extent of Sexton's injury?

There was a cover up of the initial injury which is dodgy to start with

I would expect him to start in 2nd match vs Wales or there would be
great cause for concern

To go into the 1st RWC match vs Scotland with an injury/fitness cloud
over 1st & 2nd choice #10 would be scary

Sexton would have gone 4 months without playing a game....

Word in the media is that he'll be fine for the second Wales game. Over the last few years he's generally managed to stay in form without a huge amount of games and has regularly gone a month without a game and then been back in so it's not massively concerning. Cover up is a bit far as well, it wasn't immediately trumpeted across the country but the Irish setup aren't under any obligation to do that.

 

[Reiser99]

So reading online, one big idea floating around is that Ireland are holding something back for the world cup. I'm interested what people think about this because while Ireland have some fantastic players, even the best players need time to adapt and develop a new system or tactic. It's different to a one off tactic in an individual game because the players have to execute a new game plan accurately for a whole world cup. For me if this is the case it's extremely risky and if Ireland struggle against Wales, it will also be on the back of some losing momentum. Also quite a few players who are considered first team players have been struggling since the 6N's. Best, Stander, Murray, Sexton for example. Again when you have players in a loss of form and confidence then asking them to execute something new accurately with little game time practice is asking a lot.

Basically do Irish fans think it's a credible idea that Schmidt's holding some cards back and how do you feel about it?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

So reading online, one big idea floating around is that Ireland are holding something back for the world cup. I'm interested what people think about this because while Ireland have some fantastic players, even the best players need time to adapt and develop a new system or tactic. It's different to a one off tactic in an individual game because the players have to execute a new game plan accurately for a whole world cup. For me if this is the case it's extremely risky and if Ireland struggle against Wales, it will also be on the back of some losing momentum. Also quite a few players who are considered first team players have been struggling since the 6N's. Best, Stander, Murray, Sexton for example. Again when you have players in a loss of form and confidence then asking them to execute something new accurately with little game time practice is asking a lot.

Basically do Irish fans think it's a credible idea that Schmidt's holding some cards back and how do you feel about it?

He'll have different power plays off set pieces that aren't being used but that's about it, he does that for literally every competitive match though. He doesn't know his starting team anymore, said as much in the press conference, something along the lines of past performance not being a factor in selection anymore. I'm fairly confident that a few personnel tweaks can get us back to playing like a top 5 team very quickly, Saturday's team was a way off our starting tear regardless but Best and one or two backrows have to get the hook too.

 

[munstermuffin]

He'll have different power plays off set pieces that aren't being used but that's about it, he does that for literally every competitive match though. He doesn't know his starting team anymore, said as much in the press conference, something along the lines of past performance not being a factor in selection anymore. I'm fairly confident that a few personnel tweaks can get us back to playing like a top 5 team very quickly, Saturday's team was a way off our starting tear regardless but Best and one or two backrows have to get the hook too.

Not disagreeing with any of this but on a serious note do you think Schmidt will be brave enough to do any of the following:
- Drop Best
- Change the backrow
- Act on any under performing back

This is before we factor in Sexton is a serious doubt and even if he is back where is he at when there 3 separate injuries/issues.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not disagreeing with any of this but on a serious note do you think Schmidt will be brave enough to do any of the following:
- Drop Best
- Change the backrow
- Act on any under performing back

This is before we factor in Sexton is a serious doubt and even if he is back where is he at when there 3 separate injuries/issues.

I hope so!

I don't think Sexton is a serious doubt, sounds like hell he good to go for the Dublin game.

 

[munstermuffin]

I hope so!

I don't think Sexton is a serious doubt, sounds like hell he good to go for the Dublin game.

Hope Sexton is ok but just heard thumb is not right still, the leg is issue and also took a bang to head.
But we are both agreed if he is right he plays.

On the top bit I hope so too but don't think Schmidt will be brave enough to drop CJ, POM and Best in 1 swoop. 3 captain materials.
I think it can be softened by CJ to 6 but you sacrifice your lineout a little. Not by loosing POM but more a jumper.

 

[Amiga500]

Hope Sexton is ok but just heard thumb is not right still, the leg is issue and also took a bang to head.
But we are both agreed if he is right he plays.

On the top bit I hope so too but don't think Schmidt will be brave enough to drop CJ, POM and Best in 1 swoop. 3 captain materials.
I think it can be softened by CJ to 6 but you sacrifice your lineout a little. Not by loosing POM but more a jumper.

Beirne into 6, Conan to 8 and Best gets a stay of execution for one week.

If he brought Ruddock into 6, he has captained Leinster enough to get the job done.

Whether someone is "captain material" is overrated. No point having a bunch of off form captains on a sinking ship.

James Ryan could do it, Rhys Ruddock could do it or Iain Henderson could do it. All have experience with the referees and making decisions at provincial or big tournaments.

 

[profitius]

The result was bad but these things happen. NZ lost by 20 something points a few weeks ago and won 36 - 0 the next week and they're well into their season!


Rugby is one of those games where if you have a weak link somewhere the opposition can have a field day exploiting it. I remember Munster away to Gloucester in last season's champions cup. Munster sent up a high ball and Gloucester couldn't deal with it so Munster kept doing it and got great reward from it, eventually winning 41-15. The lineout alone was worth about 20-30 points.


At the weekend England exploited Ireland's shambolic lineout and defence and well as Ireland's general sluggishness around the pitch. Major weaknesses but they are areas that can be improved.

 

[munstermuffin]

Beirne into 6, Conan to 8 and Best gets a stay of execution for one week.

If he brought Ruddock into 6, he has captained Leinster enough to get the job done.

Whether someone is "captain material" is overrated. No point having a bunch of off form captains on a sinking ship.

James Ryan could do it, Rhys Ruddock could do it or Iain Henderson could do it. All have experience with the referees and making decisions at provincial or big tournaments.

Not overeating captaincy more using Schmidts mentality. And why should Best get a stay of execution for 1 week. He is struggling for a long time more so than our backrow lads.
And not disagreeing with you just saying will Schmidt drop the players off form