[2013 TRC] South Africa vs. New Zealand in Johannesburg (05/10/2013)

[Big Ewis]

I don't think SA would've won that game (NZ SA) personally, but that's honestly a fairly useless conversation to have. There's no way to verify it, whatever arguments are brought forth.
Anyways:
SA have a chance to prove their worth, and at home, with a fresh, brand new start. This is the moment to shine, and to claim greatness as their fans currently are doing, now would be precisely the time to show what they're made of.

It's very, very hard for anyone to predict the outcome for this I believe...what I can say that is relevant and substantial is this:
- Boks have an advantage up front, no doubt. Scrum advantage. Their running maul may be their best weapon. But their attack really isn't nearly where it should be, tons of handling/passing errors etc...
- Blacks have a big advantage with their backs (I know, duh). And both their attack and defense have been spot on (again, duh).

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't think SA would've won that game (NZ SA) personally, but that's honestly a fairly useless conversation to have. There's no way to verify it, whatever arguments are brought forth.
Anyways:
SA have a chance to prove their worth, and at home, with a fresh, brand new start. This is the moment to shine, and to claim greatness as their fans currently are doing, now would be precisely the time to show what they're made of.

It's very, very hard for anyone to predict the outcome for this I believe...what I can say that is relevant and substantial is this:
- Boks have an advantage up front, no doubt. Scrum advantage. Their running maul may be their best weapon. But their attack really isn't nearly where it should be, tons of handling/passing errors etc...
- Blacks have a big advantage with their backs (I know, duh). And both their attack and defense have been spot on (again, duh).

The handling will be better as they aren't playing at the coast. Pending on the weather it should be a dry field. But we have had some bizarre thunderstorms lately...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't think SA would've won that game (NZ SA) personally, but that's honestly a fairly useless conversation to have. There's no way to verify it, whatever arguments are brought forth.
Anyways:
SA have a chance to prove their worth, and at home, with a fresh, brand new start. This is the moment to shine, and to claim greatness as their fans currently are doing, now would be precisely the time to show what they're made of.

It's very, very hard for anyone to predict the outcome for this I believe...what I can say that is relevant and substantial is this:
- Boks have an advantage up front, no doubt. Scrum advantage. Their running maul may be their best weapon. But their attack really isn't nearly where it should be, tons of handling/passing errors etc...
- Blacks have a big advantage with their backs (I know, duh). And both their attack and defense have been spot on (again, duh).

The thing most people seem to mis or choose to ignore is that SA didn't NEED to win that game in Eden Park and most SA commentators aren't even saying we would have; all we needed was a BP and/or for NZ to not get their BP. This is of course mere speculation but I am convinced one or both of those scenario's would have happened (IE a much 'tighter' game and score) if it weren't for Poite's major cock-up to have SA in a place where all we needed was victory at home to secure the ***le with our superior points difference.

 

[nickdnz]

It's a personal thing. I think NZ'ers have no idea as to how angry/frustrated/etc. us Saffas were with that Auckland spectacle.

Myself, my friends and family and many others are of the opinion that we would've won that match had it been not for the cards. We still feel that way. And we believe that we are better than the All Blacks.

I won't at all be surprized that even if the All Blacks win the RC, that the stadium will either be completely empty by the time the trophies are handed out or that there will be an ear-deafening amount of "Boo" chants when they recieve it.

Maybe - but you were losing prior to the yellow cards.

 

[Big Ewis]

The thing most people seem to mis or choose to ignore is that SA didn't NEED to win that game in Eden Park and most SA commentators aren't even saying we would have; all we needed was a BP and/or for NZ to not get their BP. This is of course mere speculation but I am convinced one or both of those scenario's would have happened (IE a much 'tighter' game and score) if it weren't for Poite's major cock-up to have SA in a place where all we needed was victory at home to secure the ***le with our superior points difference.

Soldier, you are in no position to be criticizing anything French right now, do you understand the words I am saying soldier !!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Maybe - but you were losing prior to the yellow cards.

Not about winning but about the result ITO log points; 5-0 whereas I am of the opinion any sane man would say 4-1 wouldn't be a strecth if would've/should've/could've.. but, yeah, we'll deal.

Soldier, you are in no position to be criticizing anything French right now, do you understand the words I am saying soldier !!

I hear you.. I'll have to check the fine print; there is a difference between "anything French" and "Les Bleus/Le XV de France" so lets settle on Poite was a naughty boy? Do I get a bonus point for referring to a cock and a Frenchman in the same sentence?

 

[ABs2011]

Wow! How long will you guys bang your heads together trying to argue what would or wouldn't have happened if BP didn't get his first yellow card OR if BP didn't stupidly lead with the elbow when he was already on a yellow....?

Move on I reckon to a bit of analysis about the game at hand rather than mulling over **** that can't be changed.

I can't speak much of the SA team as I haven't been able to watch either of their games vs OZ in full but this is my impression. A bunch of fantastic blockbusting forwards, particularly in the second and back row, a very solid front row, and a down right scary pack in general! A bit of class in the backs in JdV and Habana but in all honesty bugger all for the ABs to be scared about there. Morne Steyn may kick goals but he is pretty useless at creating tries (Apologies to SAs who may think that is harsh but that is my honest opinion ). Are SA any better than teams of the recent past? I;m not sure they are to be honest…Maybe a tad better in the forwards but it would be marginal.

On the ABs, in general I think this is the strongest team yet (of this era) with a couple of caveats. Their forwards have improved with the likes of Whitelock, Retalick, Cane, Messam and Luatua coming on strong with the real only loss being Kaino. There has been slight improvement in the halves as well and the rest of the backline is as classy as ever with Ben Smith adding an extra spark but more importantly he seems to have a very good rugby brain on him (much like his namesake Conrad). The caveats.....(1) the scrum. I have never seen the AB scrum get dominated the way it has been two games running by the Argentinians. Scary going into the SA game because the ABs simply won't be able to afford to give away so much ball and so many penalties (2) Our line out (particularly v SA) doesn't fill me full of confidence – I'm still not sure the AB coaches know who is their No. 1 hooker and whichever way they go seems to be a little underwhelming (3) McCaw: I always get a bit nervous when Richie comes back from injury without any lead up game time. It is a BIG risk IMO but in saying that he is quite simply the greatest All Black of all time so you IF he is fit you can't leave him out. Cane has been a good replacement. Big issue for me is neither McCaw or Cane seem to be pilfering much these days. Abs need that turnover ball to provide the backline with counter attack chances…will we get enough this week??

Where does that leave us? Well, one would think this is going to be a cracker of a game - I would hate to have to bet the house on it I worry the negative emotion that Heineken talks about might flow on to the field because that could well ruin the spectacle. I'd hate to see cards dictate this game as well!

That being said, one would think this will be a classic game, determined by how much quality ball the ABs can get to their backs and how many of the chances their backs take (IMO that has been the difference in this years RC; the ABs have simply taken their chances more than any other team) vs. how much dominance SA can gain in the forwards and whether they change their tactics at all to try and win the RC…. (I suspect they won't)

Result – Have to go with the ABs by a couple but could go either way.

Big game for the SAs though as I think they are the ones with everything to lose. There is a lot of talk out of SA that they feel they are better than the ABs now. Well IF they lose then the question is answered. If SA wins, you'd have to call it even stevens for this season anyway. Only if SA can absolutely monster the ABs would you have a case for saying the SAs may have edged ahead.
Looking forward to the game!!

 

[donmcdazzle]

I think SA now are a bit different to years gone by. They basically play the exact same game the Bulls used to at their peak. Smash people with their forwards, get on the front foot with bombs into the opposition half, try to win possession back from there/force opponents to kick to touch and then attack from that. I think in the past year or two it seemed the boks were stuck between a few identities; I feel like now they have embraced what they are doing.

Many people find that sort of game boring and one-dimensional, but often forget the Bulls used to score a heap of tries/points from that gameplan. Maybe the added factor of altitude helped them wear down teams and run in a few tries, who knows. All I know is that if your team can do it properly, it is super effective.

How do you stop it? Well for one you have to defuse most of the bombs and retain that ball at the ensuing ruck (easier said than done with the big SA forwards flying into their work). You also can't let their big ball runners get a roll on once they're in your half (again easier said than done). We will have to win our scrums and pounce on any turnover ball.

I'd like to think we can starve them of possession and run them around but after the Argentina game I'm not all that confident in our ability to do that for long periods.

If they get their game going, it is going to be very hard to stop. But if any team can do it, it is the AB's. Going to be a great game.

 

[austingtir]

I think SA now are a bit different to years gone by. They basically play the exact same game the Bulls used to at their peak. Smash people with their forwards, get on the front foot with bombs into the opposition half, try to win possession back from there/force opponents to kick to touch and then attack from that. I think in the past year or two it seemed the boks were stuck between a few identities; I feel like now they have embraced what they are doing.

Many people find that sort of game boring and one-dimensional, but often forget the Bulls used to score a heap of tries/points from that gameplan. Maybe the added factor of altitude helped them wear down teams and run in a few tries, who knows. All I know is that if your team can do it properly, it is super effective.

How do you stop it? Well for one you have to defuse most of the bombs and retain that ball at the ensuing ruck (easier said than done with the big SA forwards flying into their work). You also can't let their big ball runners get a roll on once they're in your half (again easier said than done). We will have to win our scrums and pounce on any turnover ball.

I'd like to think we can starve them of possession and run them around but after the Argentina game I'm not all that confident in our ability to do that for long periods.

If they get their game going, it is going to be very hard to stop. But if any team can do it, it is the AB's. Going to be a great game.

If SA get their game going and we are a bit off step honestly i think they will blow us off the park. I thought our forward effort against Argentina on the weekend was pretty poor. If we play anything like that i think we could be in for a real shock.

Otherwise its just going to be another ping pong contest. Which will be probably end pretty even as i think we have well and truly had the better of them previously at that but at Ellis park it deff evens things up alot more for SA.

Finally, SA are nuts if they dont try and set up rolling mauls at every opportunity even from lineouts at halfway imo.. The one time they did it at eden park with field position it was to easy.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think SA now are a bit different to years gone by. They basically play the exact same game the Bulls used to at their peak. Smash people with their forwards, get on the front foot with bombs into the opposition half, try to win possession back from there/force opponents to kick to touch and then attack from that. I think in the past year or two it seemed the boks were stuck between a few identities; I feel like now they have embraced what they are doing.

Many people find that sort of game boring and one-dimensional, but often forget the Bulls used to score a heap of tries/points from that gameplan. Maybe the added factor of altitude helped them wear down teams and run in a few tries, who knows. All I know is that if your team can do it properly, it is super effective.

How do you stop it? Well for one you have to defuse most of the bombs and retain that ball at the ensuing ruck (easier said than done with the big SA forwards flying into their work). You also can't let their big ball runners get a roll on once they're in your half (again easier said than done). We will have to win our scrums and pounce on any turnover ball.

I'd like to think we can starve them of possession and run them around but after the Argentina game I'm not all that confident in our ability to do that for long periods.

If they get their game going, it is going to be very hard to stop. But if any team can do it, it is the AB's. Going to be a great game.

that is traditional Springbok rugby at its best! That's the way we have always played!!

BUT

We have added a few things. For instance, our backline is now also a great weapon. We have scored tries this year running from our own 22/half. Our second try against Australia last week was such a try. We have been using the width of the field to great effect, and have scored brilliant tries.

Another thing is our forwards being very mobile. Bismarck, Beast, Etzebeth, Flouw and Vermeulen are very big lads, but they are fast and very fit. it's no more a case of moving our heavy pack around. and with the new 23-players team, the props can be easily rotated to counter this tactic.

It's definitely going to be a great game, and I'm looking forward to the impact Fourie Du Preez will make. last week's MOTM and hasn't played against the AIG's since 2011...

 

[Colombia]

For instance, our backline is now also a great weapon.

Really? why couldn't they score a BP win against a poor Australian team. I don't think the SA backline maximises the ball their forwards produce at all.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Really? why couldn't they score a BP win against a poor Australian team. I don't think the SA backline maximises the ball their forwards produce at all.

What?? we made silly mistakes. we played for 20 minutes with 14 men. Australia Defended better in the second half, and our forwards made a lot of handling errors... Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Willie le Roux score a try in the 71st minute?? What position does he play??

 

[yarmolinsky]

Correct me if I'm wrong

experience tells us it never actually works...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Really? why couldn't they score a BP win against a poor Australian team. I don't think the SA backline maximises the ball their forwards produce at all.

In two matches NZ scored 8 tries against Aus (6 and 2) this year and conceded 3 (2 and 1), we scored 7 (4 and 3) tries against Aus this year and conceded 1 (0 and 1). Most of those tries were with the backline. I'd say it's a weapon, yeah.

 

[donmcdazzle]

that is traditional Springbok rugby at its best! That's the way we have always played!!

BUT

We have added a few things. For instance, our backline is now also a great weapon. We have scored tries this year running from our own 22/half. Our second try against Australia last week was such a try. We have been using the width of the field to great effect, and have scored brilliant tries.

Another thing is our forwards being very mobile. Bismarck, Beast, Etzebeth, Flouw and Vermeulen are very big lads, but they are fast and very fit. it's no more a case of moving our heavy pack around. and with the new 23-players team, the props can be easily rotated to counter this tactic.

It's definitely going to be a great game, and I'm looking forward to the impact Fourie Du Preez will make. last week's MOTM and hasn't played against the AIG's since 2011...

Yes I agree, the personnel are pretty perfectly suited to the ABSA's gameplan now, and have added a new edge to it too like you say with the forwards you have there. I like the more ambitious backs too, although I still can't fathom Kirchner at the back.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Ja, this Bok team still has a number of loose ends IMO and probably will see a number of changes over the next year or two still. Kirchner is just one of them. First up is Flip van der Merwe. I don't expect to see him play for the Bokke again TBH. I imagine we'll see Juandre Kruger in November still but I can see us going forward with a combination of Etzebeth, PS du Toit and Paul Willemse with Kruger on the fringes looking ahead.

 

[jessta]

Who will the AB's play at hooker? Perhaps kev may be in with a shot. He made a good solid impact off the bench last week. Reckon he will still be on the bench though, leaving coles and hore? Hmmm

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Who will the AB's play at hooker? Perhaps kev may be in with a shot. He made a good solid impact off the bench last week. Reckon he will still be on the bench though, leaving coles and hore? Hmmm

I'm expecting Coles to start with either of the other two hookers on the bench. Mealamu is in better form, but Hore is probably more suited to combat the Springboks.

 

[smartcooky]

Yes I agree, the personnel are pretty perfectly suited to the ABSA's gameplan now, and have added a new edge to it too like you say with the forwards you have there. I like the more ambitious backs too, although I still can't fathom Kirchner at the back.

I saw what you did there!

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

On the ABs, in general I think this is the strongest team yet (of this era) with a couple of caveats.

Strongest of this era? Can i ask when this era started?