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[2021 Rugby Championship] Round 6 South Africa v New Zealand (02/10/2021)

Alex Anghel

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As a neutral, for me the main problem of NZRU seems to be that they have been too long with this coaching staff. I can understand the continuity rationale, but it works (i) when you have generational players that can carry the group through multiple WC cycles and (ii) when your overall game still left the opposition wanting/guessing.

Clearly, the All Blacks are not in this position anymore, as both their generational players are gone and the opposition obviously found the antidote to their running rugby style, via the rush defense/slow the game tactics/powerful forwards that dominate the breakdown and line outs.

NZRU should have needed a complete cleanout after WC 2019 and start afresh with a completely new ABs coaching panel, with different ideas and a different approach, game strategy and selection wise. COVID issues aside, it's basically the middle of the WC 2023 cycle and I really don't see any major improvement in the ABs game or cemented combinations or locked spots in neither the forward area nor the backline, bar Jordie, who is proving to be indispensable.
 
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Zerobound

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Currently watching the NRL Grand Final.. That's a penalty! .. Wait, that's right the NRL still allow players to compete for the ball
 

NZbloke

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Ok now I see where you are coming from - you don’t think errors are as significant as I do. I am pin pointing bits of each game, but only because some bits are more important than others. Just like I would pin point how his well timed insertion into the line or ‘always In The right place at the right time’ support play had caused a try that most likely wouldn’t have been scored by another player, but I wouldn’t pin poibt each time he caught an easy pass or made an easy tackle or took an easy high ball, or scored an easy try at the end of an overlap where any other winger would have done the same. To me even two errors is too many unless you are doing something special that the other winger you could have chosen would t have done. And five errors against a third string Tonga is more significant than five tries when the team would have been aiming to be clinical.

“what about talking about our poor option taking against the rush defence, how to improve our lineouts etc”
What about it?
Of course any of us don't want players to make mistakes, as said no one has had a perfect game though & they never will - it's about cutting your mistakes down to a real minimum, that's all a player can do under the pressure situations of test matches especially, everyone is always going to make a few mistakes in a match... it astonishes me you don't see Will Jordon for the class player he is, in terms of attack he has a ton of speed & top handling skills, is always popping up in support, he reads the game really well.

Take an easy game like playing against Tonga, because we will spend a lot of time running the ball through the backs & forwards at them clearly all our players are going to make more mistakes because of it, that's just logical.

Well, haven't heard you give any solutions about how we can improve against the rushing defence or in our lineouts ?
 

NZbloke

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The springboks top team at the moment is better than ours.

I think definitely we could have won this game if we had better coaching. But I also think the springboks are a very good team, and their players in this game are actually better than ours.
How do you come to the conclusion the Boks top team is better than ours at the moment ? - no doubt the Boks are a very good team & were the better team on the day... but lets be honest the ABs were tactically very bloody poor in the match & we still almost managed to win the game, also ABs actually won the Rugby Championship losing only one match, whereas the Boks lost 3 matches.
 

Kiwiwomble

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How do you come to the conclusion the Boks top team is better than ours at the moment ? - no doubt the Boks are a very good team & were the better team on the day... but lets be honest the ABs were tactically very bloody poor in the match & we still almost managed to win the game, also ABs actually won the Rugby Championship losing only one match, whereas the Boks lost 3 matches.
its not that crazy an idea so im not sure it needs a lot of explaining, they're currently World Champs, world #1 and had just beat us.....its not rocket surgery, you may not agree but im sure you can see how someone might think that given those facts
 

NZbloke

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its not that crazy an idea so im not sure it needs a lot of explaining, they're currently World Champs, world #1 and had just beat us.....its not rocket surgery, you may not agree but im sure you can see how someone might think that given those facts
Yeah, it not rocket science - the fact is the team that wins a RWC is the best team at that tournament only & the Boks only sneaked in front of us in the world rankings because they only just won the game at the death & ABs have a better winning record this year than the Boks... also our tactics were incredibly dumb in that last match, so we can definitely improve a lot more than them.
 

Kiwiwomble

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Yeah, it not rocket science - the fact is the team that wins a RWC is the best team at that tournament only & the Boks only sneaked in front of us in the world rankings because they only just won the game at the death & ABs have a better winning record this year than the Boks... also our tactics were incredibly dumb in that last match, so we can definitely improve a lot more than them.
...and there is no way the Bokke can do better? that was the best game a Bokke team has ever played?
 

NZbloke

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NZRU should have needed a complete cleanout after WC 2019 and start afresh with a completely new ABs coaching panel, with different ideas and a different approach, game strategy and selection wise. COVID issues aside, it's basically the middle of the WC 2023 cycle and I really don't see any major improvement in the ABs game or cemented combinations or locked spots in neither the forward area nor the backline, bar Jordie, who is proving to be indispensable.
Exactly, we needed a completely new coaching staff that could bring in new ideas etc.
 

NZbloke

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...and there is no way the Bokke can do better? that was the best game a Bokke team has ever played?
Not sure it was the best match they have ever played... but liked how they varied their game a bit more, which certainly made them harder to defend against.
 

Kiwiwomble

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Not sure it was the best match they have ever played... but liked how they varied their game a bit more, which certainly made them harder to defend against.
agreed, but my point was your were talking about al the areas that the AB's could improve on and that makes them better whilst ignoring anything they could do to match
 

NZbloke

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agreed, but my point was your were talking about al the areas that the AB's could improve on and that makes them better whilst ignoring anything they could do to match
Not saying the Boks can't improve, but they never going to make big improvements on attack until they start playing more positively there, that's going to take a big mindset change by them, whereas the ABs are far more dangerous in that area, that's shown by all the tries we score - what I'm saying is it was just stupid how our backs keep running into a brick wall because it wasn't on to run it in those type of situations, on those occasions as said plenty of times we need to turn them around by kicking into space behind them, one of the best kicking options are angled ones towards the sideline, Frans Steyn did that really well against us, sort that out & we will have a much better balanced attack, but with Foster as coach can't see that happening... it's also up to the playmakers to read whats in front of them.
 
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Derpus

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Currently watching the NRL Grand Final.. That's a penalty! .. Wait, that's right the NRL still allow players to compete for the ball
They also allow the players to make contact with the head in every single bloody tackle.

CTE lawsuit is going to be astronomical.
 

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The Wallabies barely beat a D side France team at home. France won back to back junior world championships. Have the wallabies even won one?
We are down to 'D' now are we? I wonder how long before we hit 'E'.

Those powerful French must win loads of 6 Nations and World Cups right?... what's that? no trophy in a decade? No world cup ever?
 
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Kiwiwomble

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We are down to 'D' now are we? I wonder how long before we hit 'E'.

Those powerful French must win loads of 6 Nations and World Cups right?... what's that? no trophy in a decade?
yeah D is a stretch, a french man at my club claimed C after a few beers during one of the games but during the week he was saying -B
 

Umaga's Witness

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How do you come to the conclusion the Boks top team is better than ours at the moment ? - no doubt the Boks are a very good team & were the better team on the day... but lets be honest the ABs were tactically very bloody poor in the match & we still almost managed to win the game, also ABs actually won the Rugby Championship losing only one match, whereas the Boks lost 3 matches.
if it wasn’t for the 5 errors le roux made, I dont think we would have almost won the game. Plus you were talking about players not the performance of the team.

Shall we go through the lineups?
Starting front rows, equal. They have big defenders and big ball runners, we have more agility and both have good scrums, theirs slightly better.

Starting locks, boks by a mile. Etzebeth is a lineout machine, and lood is big, mobile, smart, was unlucky not to be world player of the year 2019.

Starting loose forwards, boks. They’re better at the breakdown. Equal on defence. We’re better in attack, but that rarely matters in big tests against teams who are good at the breakdown and on defence. Most importantly they are more experienced at this level. So while our players have potential, it’s not immediately coachable, they need experience too.

Halves, boks. Fafs kicks are ridiculous, just watch them move in the air. Pollard isn’t very good, beauden is better, but boks overall take it.

Midfield, hard to say.

Outside backs, us.

Reserve scrum, them by a mile
Other reserve forwards, equal
Reserve backs, us

But really, both teams are pretty even except the boks reserve scrum players is way better than ours, their lineout players are better than ours, but we have more X factor.
 
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Derpus

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if it wasn’t for the 5 errors le roux made, I dont think we would have almost won the game. Plus you were talking about players not the performance of the team.

Shall we go through the lineups?
Starting front rows, equal. They have big defenders and big ball runners, we have more agility and both have good scrums, theirs slightly better.

Starting locks, boks by a mile. Etzebeth is a lineout machine, and lood is big, mobile, smart, was unlucky not to be world player of the year 2019.

Starting loose forwards, boks. They’re better at the breakdown. Equal on defence. We’re better in attack, but that rarely matters in big tests against teams who are good at the breakdown and on defence. Most importantly they are more experienced at this level. So while our players have potential, it’s not immediately coachable, they need experience too.

Halves, boks. Fafs kicks are ridiculous, just watch them move in the air. Pollard isn’t very good, beauden is better, but boks overall take it.

Midfield, hard to say.

Outside backs, us.

Reserve scrum, them by a mile
Other reserve forwards, equal
Reserve backs, us

But really, both teams are pretty even except the boks reserve scrum players is way better than ours, their lineout players are better than ours, but we have more X factor.
On the midfield front i was very unimpressed by de Allende after the two Wallabies tests but he outplayed Havili with ease./

Not sure what Havili is doing in that AB midfield. Surely the ABs have someone better?
 

unrated

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On the midfield front i was very unimpressed by de Allende after the two Wallabies tests but he outplayed Havili with ease./

Not sure what Havili is doing in that AB midfield. Surely the ABs have someone better?
The thing is Kerevi was dominating along with Koroibete. No one could tackle them, they always made meters on attack. In that kind of form they will make anyone in the world look poor.

Whole team looked bad vs Australia. Not that i think they were. Its just always tough winning away to the Wallabies. They took Boks confidence to a lowpoint.
 

The_Blindside

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On the midfield front i was very unimpressed by de Allende after the two Wallabies tests but he outplayed Havili with ease./

Not sure what Havili is doing in that AB midfield. Surely the ABs have someone better?

12 looks like a problem position for ABs since Nonu, SBW and Crotty retired. Quinn Tupaea perhaps? But he’s very inexperienced.
 

Al Bangor

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Round 6: It was nice to see SA get that win over NZ, even though the AB's won the cup. That was one of the best matches I've seen (highlights) in a very long time.

 
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Oliver Madden

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if it wasn’t for the 5 errors le roux made, I dont think we would have almost won the game. Plus you were talking about players not the performance of the team.

Shall we go through the lineups?
Starting front rows, equal. They have big defenders and big ball runners, we have more agility and both have good scrums, theirs slightly better.

Starting locks, boks by a mile. Etzebeth is a lineout machine, and lood is big, mobile, smart, was unlucky not to be world player of the year 2019.

Starting loose forwards, boks. They’re better at the breakdown. Equal on defence. We’re better in attack, but that rarely matters in big tests against teams who are good at the breakdown and on defence. Most importantly they are more experienced at this level. So while our players have potential, it’s not immediately coachable, they need experience too.

Halves, boks. Fafs kicks are ridiculous, just watch them move in the air. Pollard isn’t very good, beauden is better, but boks overall take it.

Midfield, hard to say.

Outside backs, us.

Reserve scrum, them by a mile
Other reserve forwards, equal
Reserve backs, us

But really, both teams are pretty even except the boks reserve scrum players is way better than ours, their lineout players are better than ours, but we have more X factor.
just my opinion but at the moment I think the Springboks are the better team in more facets of the game than the All Blacks. I feel like in every game between the two since 2018, the Boks have made a lot more of the play. The ABs have won their games through moments of individual brilliance or feeding off SA errors. Saturday was a classic example, no way should that have been a two point game, the Boks were 10-12 points better. Some people who are talking about “The ABs are much better” clearly haven’t been watching these games recently. The All Blacks haven’t dominated South Africa in a game for 4 years.
 

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