A great big Munster thread

[munstermuffin]

What's the stop Munster investing in that instead of, say, Arno Botha?

That Munster won't invest in something they don't own. Like there is no link between Schools etc here. And Munster alone don't have that

 

[big ginger 8]

Bit of a stretch to say Leinster success is down to having fee paying schools and Munster don't have them. Last I checked Pres, CBC, Rockwell and Glenstal are all private while Munchins and Crescent have still been able to have some success. Sure money absolutely does make a difference but the Leinster branch does invest in its development outside of the schools. Carberry himself only went to Blackrock for one year less than some of his classmates in Munster.

Adam Byrne, Tom Daly, Peter Dooley, Tadhg Furlong, Sean O'Brien, Jack Aungier, Vakh Abdaladze, Ciaran Frawley and Conor O'Brien are all guys who never went to a private school in the Leinster squad, despite their lack of going to private school they've all managed to make their Leinster debut pretty early and handle the physicality.

The private school argument isn't a truthful one. While there may be something there in that of course Leinster has a greater population base, Munster absolutely is failing somewhere in its player development. There's been recent 20s squads where you could count the amount of Munster players on one hand. This year does have more of them in fairness so maybe something is been done but saying it's all down to private schools is certainly wrong.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@muff
Then develop a link like Leinster did.

Paul O'Connell's view:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport...m-rather-than-seeking-quick-fixes-471287.html

"I think it's just a short-term fix for Munster if players come here.

"We have to put in a production system underneath from the club game and from the schools game to match other provinces."

"Maybe we won't ever be as good as Leinster at it but we do need to try something.

"I chat to people all the time about short-term fixes, about signing players from other provinces, and signing players from other countries.

"It's a short-term fix and we need a long-term fix that can produce talent and sustain the province going forward.

"Rugby is a very tough game. If you are emotionally connected to the team you are playing for, you have a far better chance of being successful.

"And you have a far better chance of being emotionally connected to a team you are playing for if you come up through that province and wanted to play for that team all your life."

I've commended Munster in the past for their recruitment. They've done a stellar job bringing players into the system from outside to remain competitive. O'Connell's right though, that's not sustainable and long term, they need to improve their output from the schools and clubs game.

Saying Munster don't have the schools structure that Leinster do is correct. It can equally be pointed out that Leinster's investment in the clubs game, which isn't as strong as Munster's, produced Jeremy Loughman, Vakh Abdaladze, Peter Dooley, Tadhg Furlong, Jack Aungier, Sean O'Brien, Mick Kearney, Joey Carbery, Ciaran Frawley, Tom Daly and Adam Byrne from this season's squad. Others like Jordan Larmour, Andrew Porter, Josh van der Flier and Jack Conan come from schools which barely mapped on the register 10-15 years ago.

They need to invest in development programmes even if it takes begging, borrowing and stealing from the IRFUs coffers.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

@snoopy snoopy dog dog the comments on the academy are wrong though. The work is being put in but if you look at Leinster. The schools system is where the real ground work is done. A lot of the schools are fee paying schools. We don't have that here. And with them fee paying schools it is funds too generate good investment in to roots of game. And we don't have as many schools playing at a level needed either. Yes we could be doing better but it's not comparing like with like. Even the numbers playing schools in Leinster to Munster was nearly 5.3 to 1 in 2016.
And all this talk on Bill Johnston being blocked is way off the mark. Bill has not been blocked at all.
The facts are this. Bill has had a lot of injuries. For Garryowen and A team. So hasn't been fit enough. Now if he is fit opportunities will arrive.
Joey - Will be IRFU managed so gametime limited.
JJ/Keatley - 1 will be leaving and the other IF they stay will probably play as a 15 or 12 with 10 being a back up option.
Tyler - Remember he was originally signed to play 12. Now that option may be explored again but that is if Tyler plays again which is on the ropes.

On Taute. He will be used as a 15 this year a bit too I'm expecting as Conway will be IRFU managed. Farrell will be out until maybe November/December.

But back on Joey thing too. The big point being missed is Joey seen himself as a 3rd choice starting 10 for Leinster. Leinster didn't necessarily disagree with that. And he went to a team where he will play almost exclusively as a 10. Leinster weren't wrong but can't blame the player for doing what he felt was best for him

I don't think that last paragraph is fooling anyone Muff. Joey moved due to the pressure put on him by Nucifora and Schmidt, the pressure wasn't enough to go North to Rugby's own Harchester United but a side who are on the verge of competing for trophies was attractive enough. If there was no RWC next year he'd still be in Dublin, it was his own decision about as much as it was Pienaar's to leave Ulster.

 

[munstermuffin]

What's the stop Munster investing in that instead of, say, Arno Botha?

That Munster won't invest in something they don't own. Like there is no link between Schools etc here. And Munster alone don't have that

Bit of a stretch to say Leinster success is down to having fee paying schools and Munster don't have them. Last I checked Pres, CBC, Rockwell and Glenstal are all private while Munchins and Crescent have still been able to have some success. Sure money absolutely does make a difference but the Leinster branch does invest in its development outside of the schools. Carberry himself only went to Blackrock for one year less than some of his classmates in Munster.

Adam Byrne, Tom Daly, Peter Dooley, Tadhg Furlong, Sean O'Brien, Jack Aungier, Vakh Abdaladze, Ciaran Frawley and Conor O'Brien are all guys who never went to a private school in the Leinster squad, despite their lack of going to private school they've all managed to make their Leinster debut pretty early and handle the physicality.

The private school argument isn't a truthful one. While there may be something there in that of course Leinster has a greater population base, Munster absolutely is failing somewhere in its player development. There's been recent 20s squads where you could count the amount of Munster players on one hand. This year does have more of them in fairness so maybe something is been done but saying it's all down to private schools is certainly wrong.

I think if you read it correctly instead of in a single minded context you'd see it wasn't aimed just at fee paying schools. Was clearly stated on overall structure

 

[munstermuffin]

@muff
Then develop a link like Leinster did.

Paul O'Connell's view:


I've commended Munster in the past for their recruitment. They've done a stellar job bringing players into the system from outside to remain competitive. O'Connell's right though, that's not sustainable and long term, they need to improve their output from the schools and clubs game.

Saying Munster don't have the schools structure that Leinster do is correct. It can equally be pointed out that Leinster's investment in the clubs game, which isn't as strong as Munster's, produced Jeremy Loughman, Vakh Abdaladze, Peter Dooley, Tadhg Furlong, Jack Aungier, Sean O'Brien, Mick Kearney, Joey Carbery, Ciaran Frawley, Tom Daly and Adam Byrne from this season's squad. Others like Jordan Larmour, Andrew Porter, Josh van der Flier and Jack Conan come from schools which barely mapped on the register 10-15 years ago.

They need to invest in development programmes even if it takes begging, borrowing and stealing from the IRFUs coffers.

Don't get me wrong I hear you and agree. But the issue is as I stated you look at Leinster. Schools rugby is the pinnacle and well as I said alot are playing it as their main sport. Here the numbers are poor and structures are wrong.
If you want what type of structure is needed here look no further than Band on over past few years. The link between the club and school. Hired a top coach (Ok not every school will get that quality) but that is the issue. Grassroots like well before the Academy. Schools rugby in Limerick is gone to pot a bit and standard is poor overall. BG8 thought I was having a dig at fee paying schools saying it was all on Dublin. What I was more saying is up there fee paying schools especially invested in a structure and it works. But equally there is a lot of schools up there investing in the structures and it is producing depth. Lads are in gym up there and training quantity wise like pros. That stands to them. But here in Munster or Ulster or Connacht that same commitment isn't there on a team level at that age and it plays a factor. And you then have because of it guys at 20 who are equivalent to Leinster guys at 18

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't think that last paragraph is fooling anyone Muff. Joey moved due to the pressure put on him by Nucifora and Schmidt, the pressure wasn't enough to go North to Rugby's own Harchester United but a side who are on the verge of competing for trophies was attractive enough. If there was no RWC next year he'd still be in Dublin, it was his own decision about as much as it was Pienaar's to leave Ulster.

But we will never know but what was said is true. He is 3rd choice starting 10. He does want to be a 10. If he did stay he may have stagnated. Sexton is talking about another Lions tour. Like if you were in Joeys shoes you may think go. I don't know the exact lines of communication but when you look at it it is possible. Joey may hav3 stayed and played Sexton out of 10 shirt next season but is it possible he decided on the less riskier move but that can up his reputation massively at same time. He is talented bit as a consistent 10 leading a team is a bit unknown still for various reason.

 

[Groundhog]

Munster:
15. Mike Haley
14. Darren Sweetnam
13. Dan Goggin
12. Rory Scannell
11. Calvin Nash
10. Bill Johnston
9. James Hart

1. Dave Kilcoyne
2. Mike Sherry
3. Brian Scott
4. Jean Kleyn
5. Billy Holland (captain)
6. Dave O'Callaghan
7. Tommy O'Donnell
8. Gavin Coombes.

Replacements: Kevin O'Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, Cronan Gleeson, Ciaran Parker, Fineen Wycherley, Darren O'Shea, Sean O'Connor, Jack Daly, Arno Botha, Neil Cronin, JJ Hanrahan, Ian Keatley, Shane Daly, Sammy Arnold, Liam Coombes, Stephen Fitzgerald.



Glad to see Johnston play. Would be a crying shame if after years of injury he didn't get the chance to earn his place. Excited to see the reason Olly drinks at 15 as well. Coombes as well is promising. Pretty strong team otherwise with most unknowns on the bench. Never heard of Cronin Gleeson for example. Hope Neil Cronin gets time too, he's hot as hell at AIL level and you'd have to root for a guy who takes his journey to pro rugby again.

 

[munstermuffin]

Munster:
15. Mike Haley
14. Darren Sweetnam
13. Dan Goggin
12. Rory Scannell
11. Calvin Nash
10. Bill Johnston
9. James Hart

1. Dave Kilcoyne
2. Mike Sherry
3. Brian Scott
4. Jean Kleyn
5. Billy Holland (captain)
6. Dave O'Callaghan
7. Tommy O'Donnell
8. Gavin Coombes.

Replacements: Kevin O'Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, Cronan Gleeson, Ciaran Parker, Fineen Wycherley, Darren O'Shea, Sean O'Connor, Jack Daly, Arno Botha, Neil Cronin, JJ Hanrahan, Ian Keatley, Shane Daly, Sammy Arnold, Liam Coombes, Stephen Fitzgerald.



Glad to see Johnston play. Would be a crying shame if after years of injury he didn't get the chance to earn his place. Excited to see the reason Olly drinks at 15 as well. Coombes as well is promising. Pretty strong team otherwise with most unknowns on the bench. Never heard of Cronin Gleeson for example. Hope Neil Cronin gets time too, he's hot as hell at AIL level and you'd have to root for a guy who takes his journey to pro rugby again.

Alot of guys playing for position next week. But chance also for Brian Scott now he's had another good preseason learning to be a TH at this level

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Really hope Haley manages to get a starting position very talented IMO

 

[munstermuffin]

Really hope Haley manages to get a starting position very talented IMO

There is no fear of that. He's been very good in training and very vocal. Has settled in well soon and with a child on the way will be well up for challenge.

 

[Groundhog]

Really hope Haley manages to get a starting position very talented IMO

Depends on how Conway is viewed to some extent I feel. If Conway and Sweetnam are assumed starting wingers (Alex Wootton's defence needs a lot of work), then Haley is really the only specialist guy I see trusted at 15 unless Turnip head Stephen Fitzgerald has a breakout season.

 

[munstermuffin]

Depends on how Conway is viewed to some extent I feel. If Conway and Sweetnam are assumed starting wingers (Alex Wootton's defence needs a lot of work), then Haley is really the only specialist guy I see trusted at 15 unless Turnip head Stephen Fitzgerald has a breakout season.

Keith Earls would he seen as starter. And Sweets is on fire in preseason.
There is alot of competition too. Even our pack is very competitive.
I'm a scrum session they did Kleyn and Beirne packing down behind Cronin Rhys and Ryan. It a powerful 5.

 

[sugary tae]

Long time lurker said I start posting.

Who are ye expecting to make a breakthrough this year. I've big hopes for Coombes. Especially with cj and Pom to be rested in a rwc year. Wycherley too I suppose. I'd love to see Neil cronin make the cut Neither Hart nor Duncan will ever be top level

 

[munstermuffin]

Long time lurker said I start posting.

Who are ye expecting to make a breakthrough this year. I've big hopes for Coombes. Especially with cj and Pom to be rested in a rwc year. Wycherley too I suppose. I'd love to see Neil cronin make the cut Neither Hart nor Duncan will ever be top level

Well Coombes is the hope. Stephen Fitz and Nash to make strides. FW hopefully but well he's had chances and through injury or suspension has just not taken them but youth is on his side.
Neil is a good player bit has an uphill battle due to age and adjusting to pro rugby life again. But certainly has a chance.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I see Tigers academy lost to both Munster and Leinster U19's although TBF it was our U17's and we where missing 3 of our best players in Costelow, Martin and Whitecombe.

 

[sugary tae]

Interesting A team selection. Thought Coombes did enough to keep with the first team but obviously lots of competition. Good to see whotton back in the mix. What have been impressions of Matt more and Knox in the ail?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

What are the thoughts on Johann van Graan so far?

Results weren't great with South Africa but admittedly I didn't follow them closely. That could have set off alarm bells. Don't want to read too much into a loss to Glasgow where Munster were without a host of frontliners but after a summer where he had a chance to impose his philosophy on how Munster play, there has been no great improvement. Passing and ball handling were very poor this weekend, the same issues which presented themselves in the playoffs against Leinster a few months ago.

He gives great interviews and perhaps is a good motivator but I don't see that he's added anything to Munster from a coaching standpoint thus far. Are his assistant coaches letting him down? Problems seem to be more behind the scrum than in the pack. Keith Earls, Andrew Conway, Chris Farrell, Conor Murray and Joey Carbery should improve this. If not, questions need to be asked.

Was van Graan the guy Munster were looking at to be head coach or was it David Wessels? Maybe van Graan is more suited to a director of rugby role than head coach, akin to how Leinster have Leo Cullen at front of house and Stuart Lancaster formulating the game plan and upskilling players.

 

[munstermuffin]

What are the thoughts on Johann van Graan so far?

Results weren't great with South Africa but admittedly I didn't follow them closely. That could have set off alarm bells. Don't want to read too much into a loss to Glasgow where Munster were without a host of frontliners but after a summer where he had a chance to impose his philosophy on how Munster play, there has been no great improvement. Passing and ball handling were very poor this weekend, the same issues which presented themselves in the playoffs against Leinster a few months ago.

He gives great interviews and perhaps is a good motivator but I don't see that he's added anything to Munster from a coaching standpoint thus far. Are his assistant coaches letting him down? Problems seem to be more behind the scrum than in the pack. Keith Earls, Andrew Conway, Chris Farrell, Conor Murray and Joey Carbery should improve this. If not, questions need to be asked.

Was van Graan the guy Munster were looking at to be head coach or was it David Wessels? Maybe van Graan is more suited to a director of rugby role than head coach, akin to how Leinster have Leo Cullen at front of house and Stuart Lancaster formulating the game plan and upskilling players.

I think he's a good technical coach. Our issue is in the backs and just getting the right ideas. That is where I think Joey is key.
Hard to accurately comment as being honest the Glasgow result was what was expected when teams were named. Performance was very poor though especially the 1st half.

The key for me is coaching dynamics.

 

[Amiga500]

Passing and ball handling were very poor this weekend

Munster's passing and ball handling were never the best. Its something that seems to be endemic down there. Only Rob Penney managed to do something about it and sure they got shot of him.

Even with the liginds, fingers went over the eyes when the ball went beyond Radge. Sometimes it worked well. Other times not so much.


Who is in charge of skills and the backs? The amount of passes that go to where the man is, rather than where the man wants to be is shocking.