A Political Thread pt. 2

[Welsh Exile]

To make you feel better though, Harry, Hitler did fail an attempted coup in 1923 so they certainly have that in common, among 1 or 2 other things.

 

[dirty harry]

Both of these statements imply that Palestinians are in a position to think rationally based on the wider world's values. There's virtually no Palestinians who have had access to human rights or anything resembling freedom for their lifetime and it's a direct consequence of Israeli occupation / interference. The current conflict can't be viewed through any normal lens.

Hamas are what they are because they've been treated like caged rats their entire lives. They haven't been able to travel or trade like Israeli citzens or citizems of any other country. Times of anything resembling peace were generally ended by Israeli land grabs. I could go on but essentially they see their only path to freedom being to destroy Israel. Is this rational or even realistic? Obviously not, is their viewpoint and the continued radicalisation understandable? I think so.

It's quite clear that we're at a stage where destroying Hamas isn't possible without something resembling genocide. It's also clear that they can't be left to their own devices because they'll only dig in deeper (literally and metaphorically) to ensure control of the country.

I can't see any peaceful solution but I think more pressure needs to be applied to Israel (this obviously requires no displacement) to find a peaceful resolution to all this. An incredibly difficult problem to have but one of their own creation. I won't hold my breath in any case.

100% agree on solutions, I'm nowhere near smart enough to know how to fix the probelm, and I think that's partly contributed to Netinyahu going all in...

But I can't agree that Palestinains only path to freedom is to destroy Isreal, that leaves out an entire Islamic history of wanting to kill Jews... it's probably a combination of both, but you also have to acknowledge Isreal has kind of been dumped with Gaza, Egypt want nothing to do with it anymore, numerous Islamic countries use Gaza to war against the destruction of isreal, and the West utilise Isreal for strategic purposes.

I'm not putting Palestinian struggles on par with Isreali, because we've all seen the devastation the war has created, but again, referring to smarter people does it not boil down to whether you believe Isreal has a right to exist?

I read something somewhere, and feel free not to believe the quote, from an isreali politician, that Isreal has such overwhelming threat to its destruction, and has been playing defence for so long, that the only form of defence left is offence. I know, ironically from an invading forces view, but there is an element of truth there no?

I'd also agree with @Welsh Exile the term genocide is over used, if Isreal wanted rid of the Palestinian people, it could do so in days, and covertly do so in weeks, for all the war crimes, errors and brutality committed by Isreal, there are documented humanitarian tactics used also. I would put Isreali governments comments on specific incidents right up there with the Hamas ministry of truths statistics of dead babies, both are fighting a PR war, isreal are certainly not innocent, but genocide is too far for me

 

[Ddanno]

 

[dirty harry]

I'm sorry, can you point me to where I said Trump is literally Hitler? I'll wait.

Secondly, I already admitted the economy was probably a big factor in a lot of Trump voters who weren't MAGA and you conveniently ignored the part of my post where I said the "hardcore MAGA" don't care. Do you think all Trump voters are hardcore MAGA? I certainly don't.

Mate you know what I meant, you reverted to cultist talk, and ignored the stated intentions and examples. Don't be so pedantic lol

I don't think the economy is as big a deal as both sides made out, Trump rode the Obama wave for a few years, it was decimated through no fault of his own, Biden picked up the peices through no fault of his own, as he inherited the fall out, and Trump has regained control of a recovering economy, the economy issue is just a weapon to whack the other side with.

 

[dirty harry]

Very well reasoned and thought out response, utilising points made and countering in an articulate credible way...

Again

 

[Welsh Exile]

Mate you know what I meant, you reverted to cultist talk, and ignored the stated intentions and examples. Don't be so pedantic lol

I don't think the economy is as big a deal as both sides made out, Trump rode the Obama wave for a few years, it was decimated through no fault of his own, Biden picked up the peices through no fault of his own, as he inherited the fall out, and Trump has regained control of a recovering economy, the economy issue is just a weapon to whack the other side with.

You said I said Trump was literally Hitler. I didn't. You then went on a rant about good Trump voters when you ignored that I said there were, I'm sure, many Trump voters who voted on the economy and weren't aligned with him in any other way. I even referenced more sensible Trump voters that didn't deny things like the fake elector plot and what not but had their reasons for voting for him nonetheless.

If I'm talking like a cultist who is my cult leader?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Israel continuing to strike hospitals in Gaza. I could believe Hamas might have had some presence in a hospital somewhere but find the idea that basically all hospitals also function as Hamas command centres a ridiculous stretch.

This on top of Israel starving the entire population, this is looking extremely like a genocide whilst trying to maintain a feeble plausible deniability.

My understanding is that it is illegal to use hospitals, schools etc as bases of military operations and if they are used, under international law, they lose their protected status. Kind of ****** up for sure but then kind of ****** up to use hospitals as a place to hide, store weapons and fire missiles from. Just how it's messed up they spent billions on tunnel networks and won't let their civilians use them. Won't build any separate bomb shelters either. I wonder why that is?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

My understanding is that it is illegal to use hospitals, schools etc as bases of military operations and if they are used, under international law, they lose their protected status. Kind of ****** up for sure but then kind of ****** up to use hospitals as a place to hide, store weapons and fire missiles from. Just how it's messed up they spent billions on tunnel networks and won't let their civilians use them. Won't build any separate bomb shelters either. I wonder why that is?

It's a big if. If Hamas are using them for military purposes then the strikes do become justified as far as I'm aware. I'm just bit entirely convinced Hamas are actually doing that.

There are no good guys in this conflict. Hannah openly state their desire is to obliterate Israel and Israel are quite happy to punish the entire Gazan population and keep them in abject poverty. Neither side is making any effort to live in peace.

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's a big if. If Hamas are using them for military purposes then the strikes do become justified as far as I'm aware. I'm just bit entirely convinced Hamas are actually doing that.

There are no good guys in this conflict. Hannah openly state their desire is to obliterate Israel and Israel are quite happy to punish the entire Gazan population and keep them in abject poverty. Neither side is making any effort to live in peace.

Really, you think that's a big if? Hard disagree there I think there's plenty of evidence the IDF have shown and I don't think even Hamas have denied this in previous years. I doubt they use every hospital but they clearly use hospitals and schools for various military reasons, to varying degrees. They do it because causing as much Palestinian civilian death is central to their strategy. In their own words "we love death as much as the Jews love life"

I agree with your second paragraph.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Really, you think that's a big if? Hard disagree there I think there's plenty of evidence the IDF have shown and I don't think even Hamas have denied this in previous years. I doubt they use every hospital but they clearly use hospitals and schools for various military reasons, to varying degrees. They do it because causing as much Palestinian civilian death is central to their strategy. In their own words "we love death as much as the Jews love life"

I agree with your second paragraph.

I make no defence of Hamas and know they have no qualms whatsoever about civilian deaths. I'm just not convinced that huge swathes of civilian infrastructure are all part of their military command structure.

Bearing in mind usual has also been driving people out of their homes and establishing settlements in the west bank, their goal clearly is annexation and ethic cleansing, not coexistence.

As I've tried to point out, most petite recognise what a bunch of murderous shits Hamas are. It's not a particularly contentious point. The issue is when Israel are framed as good guys rather than slightly less bad guys.

Could it be argued that Israel are his they are because they have faced contestant threats of extermination from day one? Probably. However made destruction of civilian infrastructure and starving millions is clearly a strategy to hurt Hamas by hurting the people. The death toll from Israeli actions throughout history vastly eclipses the death toll from their neighbours actions.

 

[Ddanno]

I don't believe for a millisecond that all of the IDF's strikes at civilian infrastructure have been intelligence based. They've proven many times that they're indiscriminate, without patience, content to commit war crimes, will shoot children and on top of all that are currently starving the Palestianians to death. You can't trust a word they say anymore than you can trust Hamas.

 

[McTallshort]

I don't believe for a millisecond that all of the IDF's strikes at civilian infrastructure have been intelligence based. They've proven many times that they're indiscriminate, without patience, content to commit war crimes, will shoot children and on top of all that are currently starving the Palestianians to death. You can't trust a word they say anymore than you can trust Hamas.

Absolutely. Gunning down a load of medics then attempting to cover it up shows Bosnian Serb levels of indiscriminate killing.

 

[Ddanno]

Absolutely. Gunning down a load of medics then attempting to cover it up shows Bosnian Serb levels of indiscriminate killing.

I'd half forgotten about that. Then there's the aid workers, journalists, the list goes on

 

[Welsh Exile]

I make no defence of Hamas and know they have no qualms whatsoever about civilian deaths. I'm just not convinced that huge swathes of civilian infrastructure are all part of their military command structure.

Bearing in mind usual has also been driving people out of their homes and establishing settlements in the west bank, their goal clearly is annexation and ethic cleansing, not coexistence.

As I've tried to point out, most petite recognise what a bunch of murderous shits Hamas are. It's not a particularly contentious point. The issue is when Israel are framed as good guys rather than slightly less bad guys.

Could it be argued that Israel are his they are because they have faced contestant threats of extermination from day one? Probably. However made destruction of civilian infrastructure and starving millions is clearly a strategy to hurt Hamas by hurting the people. The death toll from Israeli actions throughout history vastly eclipses the death toll from their neighbours actions.

I don't take anything you say as a defence of Hamas dude. I just tend to believe both Israeli and American intelligence reports that say they have used hospitals for military purposes in some instances.

i see it like a legitimate tough guy saying to some other dude "go on say it again and see what happens" Isreal are more than happy to go all in from any attack. Netenyahu and co are probably begging for it but so are Hamas. It's pretty ******.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Absolutely. Gunning down a load of medics then attempting to cover it up shows Bosnian Serb levels of indiscriminate killing.

If it's all lies then I'd be 100% with you but I just don't believe that when say the world food guys were killed in a bomb that it was a deliberate thing. I don't think the IDF, in general, see some kids, UN workers etc and think let's kill them. I'm sure individuals have committed war crimes but that's a step short of saying the whole military is geared towards the sole aim of deliberately targeting civilians. Is there a lack of regard for civilian life?probably, but then I'd wait until any specific info about any specific incident comes out before forming a strong opinion on it

 

[Ddanno]

Postmortems of rescue workers killed in Gaza show ‘gunshots to head and torso’

Findings likely to increase pressure on Israel to give a full account of incident amid accusations of war crime

www.theguardian.com

Israel's changing explanation for the deaths of 15 aid workers in Gaza

The IDF's account of how 15 aid workers were shot dead and ended up in a shallow grave has been challenged in the days since the incident in Rafah.

news.sky.com

Aid workers killed in Israeli air strike in Gaza, charity tells BBC

The Israeli military says it was targeting terrorists who "posed a threat to Israeli troops".

www.bbc.co.uk

IRC calls for the protection of aid workers in Gaza, following the killings of three partner staff in just 24 hours | The IRC

IRC condemns the killing of three colleagues from two Palestinian organizations we partner with, as a result of Israeli airstrikes last week. Since October 2023, more than 300 aid workers have been killed in Gaza, the highest number ever in any single crisis in the world.

www.rescue.org

Gaza: Israelis Attacking Known Aid Worker Locations

Israeli forces have carried out at least eight strikes on aid workers’ convoys and premises in Gaza since October 2023, even though aid groups had provided their coordinates to the Israeli authorities to ensure their protection. Israeli authorities did not issue advance warnings to any of the...

www.hrw.org

World Humanitarian Day: UN demands action as aid worker deaths hit record high

Aid workers on the frontlines of the world's conflicts are being killed in unprecedented numbers, OCHA said today as it marked

www.unocha.org

 

[Welsh Exile]

I don't believe for a millisecond that all of the IDF's strikes at civilian infrastructure have been intelligence based. They've proven many times that they're indiscriminate, without patience, content to commit war crimes, will shoot children and on top of all that are currently starving the Palestianians to death. You can't trust a word they say anymore than you can trust Hamas.

If this is true then I find it staggering that even by Hamas numbers approx 50 thousand people have died in almost 2 years all the while most of the city being levelled. That, to me, suggests the opposite.

 

[Ddanno]

Not quite sure what your point is, but if you're suggesting that civilians were in a position to just sit tight instead of retreating (thus keeping casualties low) in the face of one of the most well-armed armies in the world literally bulldozing cities and murdering children then I do not understand.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Not quite sure what your point is, but if you're suggesting that civilians were in a position to just sit tight instead of retreating in the face of one of the most well-armed armies in the world literally bulldozing cities and murdering children then I do not understand.

My point is that if Isreal truly are, as a collective, indiscriminately bombing and killing civilians because they want to, all the while levelling the city in the process (which they have) then I find it staggering the civilians death toll isn't in the hundreds of thousands or even hitting 7 figures considering this has been going on for almost 2 years.

The fact a lot of the city has been destroyed but 98%/99% of their population is in tact suggests to me that it's not indiscriminate and at least some thought and effort has gone into trying to avoid civilian death where possible. That does not mean to say there hasn't been war crimes where sometimes these acts have happened but it's happened in every war since year dot. It's why war is bad, more civilians die in war than soldiers and has been like that in modern warefare. Especially in urban warfare and doubly especially in a pace that is tiny, has a population of approx 2 million and half of which are under the age of 18 and that's before you get into the fact Hamas don't exactly look after the population.

 

[Ddanno]

My point is that if Isreal truly are, as a collective, indiscriminately bombing and killing civilians because they want to, all the while levelling the city in the process (which they have) then I find it staggering the civilians death toll isn't in the hundreds of thousands or even hitting 7 figures considering this has been going on for almost 2 years.

The fact a lot of the city has been destroyed but 98%/99% of their population is in tact suggests to me that it's not indiscriminate and at least some thought and effort has gone into trying to avoid civilian death where possible. That does not mean to say there hasn't been war crimes where sometimes these acts have happened but it's happened in every war since year dot. It's why war is bad, more civilians die in war than soldiers and has been like that in modern warefare. Especially in urban warfare and doubly especially in a pace that is tiny, has a population of approx 2 million and half of which are under the age of 18 and that's before you get into the fact Hamas don't exactly look after the population.

Ok, gotcha now.

I think we're violently agreeing in some aspects.

I'd be interested to know how many Palestinians are (or even can) still in Gaza City. It seems like IDF have been pushing everyone back relentlessly and, as I said, you're not going to stick around when the guns start blaring.

Worth a note that an estimated 15,000+ of that 50,000 were children