A Political Thread pt. 2

[Welsh Exile]

Ok, gotcha now.

I think we're violently agreeing in some aspects.

I'd be interested to know how many Palestinians are (or even can) still in Gaza City. It seems like IDF have been pushing everyone back relentlessly and, as I said, you're not going to stick around when the guns start blaring.

Worth a note that an estimated 15,000+ of that 50,000 were children

I think while I see this conflict slightly differently to people on here we are in agreement in terms of what a future peace deal should look like. The sad thing is that due to both sides we are the furthest away from that than ever before.

I'll always caveat what I say with il happily change my mind on something if new evidence comes to light but I just haven't seen it as of yet in terms of the genocide case. I think it's a uniquely messed up conflict given not only the history but more the size of Gaza, the demographics of the population and Netenyahu and his cronies in power, thigh on the last point I think even if you had a liberal Israeli PM I don't think they would've acted that differently, at least not initially anyway.

 

[dirty harry]

If it's all lies then I'd be 100% with you but I just don't believe that when say the world food guys were killed in a bomb that it was a deliberate thing. I don't think the IDF, in general, see some kids, UN workers etc and think let's kill them. I'm sure individuals have committed war crimes but that's a step short of saying the whole military is geared towards the sole aim of deliberately targeting civilians. Is there a lack of regard for civilian life?probably, but then I'd wait until any specific info about any specific incident comes out before forming a strong opinion on it

Just to touch on that regard for life, when I was in Isreal about a decade ago I found the Isreali people's attitude a little off putting, at the time I likened it to White south Africans when I was there also. I have no doubt they are a product of their environment, but there were comments and societal beliefs about Palestinians in general that were striking.

I agree with both of you, I think both Hamas want as many civilian deaths as IDF do, we've seen from Zelenski the real strength in war isn't the people on the front line, it's mobilisation of support. Hamas utilise, or at least certainly have utilised civilian buildings for military use, which encouraged Isreal to kill civilians.

I never got to the bottom of the tunnel network, never really read around it too much, so Hamas was accused of spending aid money on military infrastructure, were the tunnels confirmed as part of that?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Just to touch on that regard for life, when I was in Isreal about a decade ago I found the Isreali people's attitude a little off putting, at the time I likened it to White south Africans when I was there also. I have no doubt they are a product of their environment, but there were comments and societal beliefs about Palestinians in general that were striking.

I agree with both of you, I think both Hamas want as many civilian deaths as IDF do, we've seen from Zelenski the real strength in war isn't the people on the front line, it's mobilisation of support. Hamas utilise, or at least certainly have utilised civilian buildings for military use, which encouraged Isreal to kill civilians.

I never got to the bottom of the tunnel network, never really read around it too much, so Hamas was accused of spending aid money on military infrastructure, were the tunnels confirmed as part of that?

You get around don't you.

If that was your experience 10 years ago I can only imagine it's got a lot worse. I suspect Isrelis are pretty jaded now and your average liberal/centrist Israeli is probably pretty right leaning now and certainly for your average Palestinian I imagine the feeling is mutual. Don't forget you have over 2 million Arabs living in Israel that enjoy the same rights as Israelis but I imagine there is some systemic negative attitudes towards them but still, they enjoy a lot of freedoms, more than they would under Hamas.

I don't think the IDF want civilians deaths. It makes them look bad but if you believe they want to genocide the Palestinians then I could see how that fits. Hamas want it for their propaganda war.

I think it's widely accepted Hamas have diverted aid money to build tunnels but I don't think you'll find anything concrete (excuse the pun)

 

[McTallshort]

If the IDF and Israel's mission is to make life for the Palestinians so unbearable that they leave or they are forcibly moved then that is ethnic cleansing and a form of Genocide. Given that many in the Israeli government are pro settling and the Israeli government have absolutely been making life unbearable for Palestinians then it's very easy to level genocide on this current Israeli government.

 

[Welsh Exile]

If the IDF and Israel's mission is to make life for the Palestinians so unbearable that they leave or they are forcibly moved then that is ethnic cleansing and a form of Genocide. Given that many in the Israeli government are pro settling and the Israeli government have absolutely been making life unbearable for Palestinians then it's very easy to level genocide on this current Israeli government.

In your opinion, has this always been their aim or is this something that has come about since October 7th? This is not a gotcha question, just curious as to your thoughts on it.

 

[McTallshort]

In your opinion, has this always been their aim or is this something that has come about since October 7th? This is not a gotcha question, just curious as to your thoughts on it.

It's definitely been an aim of ultra ethnic right wing groups in Israel like the settlers but it's become more mainstream since October 7th because it suits the current Prime ministers hold on power. What I will say is that the settlers are breaking Israeli and international law yet the Israeli army protects them and intimidates the Palestinians. So before it might not have been the governments aim but they have been complicent in the same way the British government was complicent in the treatment of Catholics in Northern Ireland.

 

[Ddanno]

It's been a pretty public aim of Netanyahu's since he announced it in polite company in the 70's.

Edit for source: Max Hastings' memoirs

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's definitely been an aim of ultra ethnic right wing groups in Israel like the settlers but it's become more mainstream since October 7th because it suits the current Prime ministers hold on power. What I will say is that the settlers are breaking Israeli and international law yet the Israeli army protects them and intimidates the Palestinians. So before it might not have been the governments aim but they have been complicent in the same way the British government was complicent in the treatment of Catholics in Northern Ireland.

Fair.

It's like the whole is Isreal a colonial state. I don't think it was initially. Kind of hard to argue that it wasn't after the 6 day war in 67 and most historians seem to agree with that.

 

[Ddanno]

2010 documentary

BBC Two - Louis Theroux, Ultra Zionists

Louis Theroux spends time with a subculture of ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Welsh Exile]

Something I found useful, don't ever listen to anyone, whether they're Isreali or Arab like that unhinged son of Hamas guy (forget his name) who refer to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria.

 

[McTallshort]

2010 documentary

BBC Two - Louis Theroux, Ultra Zionists

Louis Theroux spends time with a subculture of ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers.

www.bbc.co.uk

Watching the more recent one at the minute

 

[Which Tyler]

2010 documentary

BBC Two - Louis Theroux, Ultra Zionists

Louis Theroux spends time with a subculture of ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers.

www.bbc.co.uk

2024 re-visit

BBC Two - Louis Theroux, The Settlers

Louis Theroux returns to the West Bank to meet some of the Israeli settlers living there.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Which Tyler]

"Island of strangers" wasn't the only diabolical part of Starmer's speech

Keir Starmer has taken a lot of criticism over his Enoch Powell style "nation of strangers" rhetoric, but this wasn't the only diabolical part of his divisive immigration white paper speech

anotherangryvoice.substack.com

 

[dirty harry]

"Island of strangers" wasn't the only diabolical part of Starmer's speech

Keir Starmer has taken a lot of criticism over his Enoch Powell style "nation of strangers" rhetoric, but this wasn't the only diabolical part of his divisive immigration white paper speech

anotherangryvoice.substack.com

That was an interesting read, and I came to the same conclusion as a lot of the points made, I think myself and the author differ in our reasoning for getting to the conclusion, but I think we landed in a similar place.

The Enoch Powell reference is quite apt, yes Starmer used it on purpose, mostly because he was being accused of the warnings Powell gave in that speech, in the 'two tier kier' name. Powell went on about special treatment and privilege for the 'immigrant' in that speech didn't he?

Where I would combat the author, is the idea that Labour will lose support to Reform or Tory, and they showed a graph highlight those votes would be lost to Green and Lib Dem, however that's only part of the issue, voter disengagement would be far more damaging for them IMO, the very thing that handed them the election this time, losing 1 million votes from 2019, in a higher registered voter with 4 million less votes cast, could very well decimate them going forward.

 

[AlRums]

I still believe Isreal is engaged in a war not a genocide but like in any war there are war crimes but I still don't believe it's a genocide. Ethnic cleansing is much more plausible and in some instances undeniable.

So what's the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing?

What's the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing?

World leaders have chosen their words carefully when describing the mass exodus of Rohingya fleeing violence in Myanmar, so far largely avoiding the legally specific and politically charged term "genocide."

www.pbs.org

 

[AlRums]

Israeli 'bunker buster' bombs used in Gaza hospital strike, experts say

CCTV footage obtained and verified by the BBC shows the moment before impact and the immediate aftermath. Munitions experts told BBC Verify that the strikes and destruction are consistent with the use of so-called "bunker buster" bombs - designed to hit underground targets. BBC Verify's Merlyn...

www.bbc.co.uk

The Israelis have been caught out lying so many times now, they're competing with strumpet

 

[Ddanno]

So what's the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing?

What's the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing?

World leaders have chosen their words carefully when describing the mass exodus of Rohingya fleeing violence in Myanmar, so far largely avoiding the legally specific and politically charged term "genocide."

www.pbs.org

One lets other nations ignore reality and keep rearming you, the other sees you land in the Hague 20 years after the event

 

[Welsh Exile]

So what's the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing?

What's the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing?

World leaders have chosen their words carefully when describing the mass exodus of Rohingya fleeing violence in Myanmar, so far largely avoiding the legally specific and politically charged term "genocide."

www.pbs.org

I would say death being the main one.

 

[Ddanno]

I would say death being the main one.

Definitions of Genocide and Related Crimes | United Nations

www.un.org

 

[AlRums]

Israeli military building in Syria buffer zone, satellite image shows

A satellite image taken 21 January shows new construction within the demilitarised zone.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israel are no better at abusing by ceasefire agreements than anyone else.