A Political Thread pt. 2

[Flankers' paradise]

Imagine if the ANC killed a thousand civilians in one day as opposed to the 70 odd they killed over decades. But I guess it's all the Jews fault. They should've never taken that land that they were given and they should have just let themselves be genocided again after the biggest genocide in history.

that's obviously not what I said, but if you had had your statehood removed thanks to a deal that you were excluded from, denied humanrights over 50 odd years, consistently saw your own land forcibly taken by settlers who are then backed up in their actions by their government, subjected to apartheid, have your access to water, food, outside media and medical facilities aggresively restricted, and seemingly can be killed with impunity by settlers then yes, you probably would develop an absolute hatred for them. October 7 gets portrayed as the start of a conflict to which Israel have simply responded but in reality it was just another step in a war going on between jews and Arabs since the 1930's. in 1948 when Palestine was still a British mandate, the british pulled out and the israelis stepped in and expelled most of the Arab population. I'm not by any means saying Hamas should be supported, but they weren't borne of Israel existing, they were borne from 'non-violent' protests against occupation in the 70's

 

[Welsh Exile]

that's obviously not what I said, but if you had had your statehood removed thanks to a deal that you were excluded from, denied humanrights over 50 odd years, consistently saw your own land forcibly taken by settlers who are then backed up in their actions by their government, subjected to apartheid, have your access to water, food, outside media and medical facilities aggresively restricted, and seemingly can be killed with impunity by settlers then yes, you probably would develop an absolute hatred for them. October 7 gets portrayed as the start of a conflict to which Israel have simply responded but in reality it was just another step in a war going on between jews and Arabs since the 1930's. in 1948 when Palestine was still a British mandate, the british pulled out and the israelis stepped in and expelled most of the Arab population. I'm not by any means saying Hamas should be supported, but they weren't borne of Israel existing, they were borne from 'non-violent' protests against occupation in the 70's

What happened before they expelled most of the Arab population. I feel you're missing a bit of context there.

 

[Welsh Exile]

For people that are interested they were invaded by armies from 5 countries (Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt)

They lost and then the Jews did the Nakba.

 

[dirty harry]

Got to love the old 'we didn't intend for it to happen' argument.

"Sorry about killing all the Palestinian's but they just kept fighting back or getting in the way instead of surrendering."

Saying genocide only happens by intent is preposterous. It happens through actions and Israel has killed tens thousands of Palestinians through violence, starvation or lack of health care and then you have nearly 2 million displaced. It's completely disproportionate to the Hamas attack on Israel and at this stage it is far beyond defeating Hamas. It is about seizing Gaza and removing all Palestinian by force, whether they end up dead or in another country.

So I dont disagree with much of this, but intent isn't my definition, it was from the link of genocide definition from the UN posted above.

My point was that would be Isreals argument.

I would however disagree that displacement and murder are the key goals of Isreal, that would have been achieved quickly, with the compliance of Egypt / Jordan etc

 

[dirty harry]

Everywhere seems to get ignored in comparison to the worst state in the world, Isreal. The horrible genociding, population starving, concentration camp builders, apartheid enforcers, open air prison builders etc etc. I wonder why they seem to get a disproportionate amount of attention compared to other, far worse (at least by numbers) atrocities across the world.

I agree, I'm not sure it's only Isreal focused, because Russia get the same treatment...

But certainly social media dictates 'popularity' in these issues

 

[Welsh Exile]

So I don't disagree with much of this, but intent isn't my definition, it was from the link of genocide definition from the UN posted above.

My point was that would be Isreals argument.

I would however disagree that displacement and murder are the key goals of Isreal, that would have been achieved quickly, with the compliance of Egypt / Jordan etc

So you agree with him that every war in history is a genocide. It's such a brain dead point to be honest. Making no distinction between war and genocide. Might as well just get rid of one of the words seeing as they mean the same thing.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I agree, I'm not sure it's only Isreal focused, because Russia get the same treatment...

But certainly social media dictates 'popularity' in these issues

Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin has done this to other countries. Putin does not respect the sovereignty of other nations he deems to be part of the old soviet union. The history of the Isreal Palestine conflict clearly proceeds October 7th but the start of this conflict clearly started on October 7th by Hamas trying to actually genocide Isrealis.

I'm specifically taking about Gaza. You'll get no defence from me about Israel's conduct on the West Bank but Hamas have no control over the West Bank but do run Gaza.

 

[McTallshort]

For people that are interested they were invaded by armies from 5 countries (Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt)

They lost and then the Jews did the Nakba.

When did Iraq invade Israel?

 

[Welsh Exile]

When did Iraq invade Israel?

In 48 after Isreal declared independence. Along with armies from the other 4 countries mentioned. I think they did it literally the day after.

 

[dirty harry]

So you agree with him that every war in history is a genocide. It's such a brain dead point to be honest. Making no distinction between war and genocide. Might as well just get rid of one of the words seeing as they mean the same thing.

Sorry it was meant to say I do agree with most, but my point was that intent is an element of the definition, and like you I wouldn't classify thos as a genocide based on the definition, otherwise as you say every war would be genocidal, because without intent killing is deemed genocidal.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Sorry it was meant to say I do agree with most, but my point was that intent is an element of the definition, and like you I wouldn't classify thos as a genocide based on the definition, otherwise as you say every war would be genocidal, because without intent killing is deemed genocidal.

Yeah, I agree. There's a reason why we came up with the word genocide after the Holocaust. To now water that down to mean every civilian that dies in war is a genocide is absurd to me. I know this sounds like a horrible thing to say but you are allowed to kill civilians in war, that is why war is horrible. If war just meant people that signed up for the army died it would still be bad but it's the loss of civilian life, particularly women and children that is so abhorrent about war. It's why the Palestinian stuff is so hard to digest. We're not used to see the horrific nature of war televised on every screen like we do now. It's perfectly natural to find this completely disgusting but I think there also has to be some kind of unbiased evaluation of the facts on the ground as well as the history and what not.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Anyway, I'll shut up now. I've more than said my piece and I don't want to **** off anyone more than I already have.

 

[Flankers' paradise]

For people that are interested they were invaded by armies from 5 countries (Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt)

They lost and then the Jews did the Nakba.

This was the other way around. the civil war followed the UN partition plan. in april 1948 Israel formalised Plan Dalet which was to depopulate the towns etc in what was mandatory palestine in preparation for a jewish state. this was followed by a declaration of independance right before the mandate expired, following which Egypt, Transjordan, Syria invaded, supported unofficially by Lebanese and Hashemites.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah, I agree. There's a reason why we came up with the word genocide after the Holocaust. To now water that down to mean every civilian that dies in war is a genocide is absurd to me. I know this sounds like a horrible thing to say but you are allowed to kill civilians in war, that is why war is horrible. If war just meant people that signed up for the army died it would still be bad but it's the loss of civilian life, particularly women and children that is so abhorrent about war. It's why the Palestinian stuff is so hard to digest. We're not used to see the horrific nature of war televised on every screen like we do now. It's perfectly natural to find this completely disgusting but I think there also has to be some kind of unbiased evaluation of the facts on the ground as well as the history and what not.

Sorry this isn't about a civilian death in war this is about a certain group of civilians having war visited on them because of who they are. What the Israelis have done pre and post October 7th can absolutely be viewed as ethnic cleansing. That's considerably different to civilian casualties caught up in conventional war.

Sorry I don't think we are going to agree on this, I have seen ethnic conflict first hand and I'm finding your arguments pedantic at best and disingenuous at worst. The minute it becomes normal to bomb hospitals, cut off aid supplies and kill aid workers then its a very small step until you are lining people up in large pits.

 

[dirty harry]

Yeah, I agree. There's a reason why we came up with the word genocide after the Holocaust. To now water that down to mean every civilian that dies in war is a genocide is absurd to me. I know this sounds like a horrible thing to say but you are allowed to kill civilians in war, that is why war is horrible. If war just meant people that signed up for the army died it would still be bad but it's the loss of civilian life, particularly women and children that is so abhorrent about war. It's why the Palestinian stuff is so hard to digest. We're not used to see the horrific nature of war televised on every screen like we do now. It's perfectly natural to find this completely disgusting but I think there also has to be some kind of unbiased evaluation of the facts on the ground as well as the history and what not.

Jesus we are basically aligned lol...

The difference between war and genocide is incredibly important, those who shreik genocide at everything they dislike, Ukraine, South Africa etc don't do it justice.

The distinction is important, there is inevitably war crimes going on in Gaza, both sides are responsible, but it is obvious that Isreal are commiting them at disproportianate rates, but the difference between war crimes and genocide is characterized by the intent to destroy a group. You could argue that Isreal is motivated by political, territorial, or ideological goals, but do they want to eradicate Palestinians?

The link I posted previously is very apt, the phrase 'if only I knew then what I know now' is key in these situations, we can pontificate from 5 thousand miles away sat in the sun sipping our lattes, but information is king, and not a lot comes from war zones is trustworthy in general, let alone in a PR war like this one.

 

[Reiser99]

By your definition every war in history has involved genocides.

You may think intent as a core tenant of genocide is preposterous but that's what the word means.

Err no...majority of the time they conquered and then ruled. That's very different to removing an entire people from a region.

 

[Reiser99]

So I dont disagree with much of this, but intent isn't my definition, it was from the link of genocide definition from the UN posted above.

My point was that would be Isreals argument.

I would however disagree that displacement and murder are the key goals of Isreal, that would have been achieved quickly, with the compliance of Egypt / Jordan etc

Fair enough on the UN definition.

I disagree that they aren't Israel's goals, I think they always have been for the extremists in Israel. However, they were wary before on international reprisals and so have taken it slowly. However, like Putin, they've realised that the rest of the world, especially the West is all bark and no bite and they now realise that no one will actually stop them.

 

[Saintjay]

Imagine if the IRA exclusively targeted civilians and their stated aim was to wipe out every Brit on the planet and for the UK to seize to exist.

The UDA made this argument that some elements of PIRA were actively seeking a genocide of protestants in the North

Some elements of the conduct by both sides fit the definition previously posted.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Sorry this isn't about a civilian death in war this is about a certain group of civilians having war visited on them because of who they are. What the Israelis have done pre and post October 7th can absolutely be viewed as ethnic cleansing. That's considerably different to civilian casualties caught up in conventional war.

Sorry I don't think we are going to agree on this, I have seen ethnic conflict first hand and I'm finding your arguments pedantic at best and disingenuous at worst. The minute it becomes normal to bomb hospitals, cut off aid supplies and kill aid workers then it's a very small step until you are lining people up in large pits.

Civilians have war "visited upon them" in every war. But I guess you think they want to wipe out the Palestinians and not Hamas and we fundamentally disagree there. They left Gaza pretty much well alone between 2005-2022 but yeah, I doubt we'll agree

Out of interest, do you think regardless of who was running Gaza that we would've seen the same results we're seeing now?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Err no...majority of the time they conquered and then ruled. That's very different to removing an entire people from a region.

The majority of the time? What are you taking about here? All wars? You said:


"Saying genocide only happens by intent is preposterous. It happens through actions and Israel has killed tens thousands of Palestinians through violence, starvation or lack of health care and then you have nearly 2 million displace"

Every war has seen more civilians die than military personnel so by what you wrote up there every war is a genocide regardless or whether they conquered and ruled (which isn't always true either)