A Political Thread pt. 2

[dirty harry]

Cut speeds to just 10MPH on 1,000s of miles of roads, charity demands

This limit should be applied specifically around all schools, hospitals, as well as sporting, social and cultural venues but critics have said the proposals are 'so ridiculous it is simply laughable'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Bada-Bing!]

 

[Weldit]

It's a waste of time. He'll just deny he said it.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Israel claims terrorists are the reason for the conflicts, whilst simultaneously creating the perfect breeding ground for such groups. Between the conflicts Israel is routinely allowing settlers to enact violence on Palestinians, They are being pushed out of their homes and having entire villages demolished to make way for Israelis. Israel is engaged in constant land grabs in between the conflicts.

Yes, there's lots of push and pull factors at play for sure and clearly there are genuine reasons for Palestinians to feel aggrieved but I would disagree that it's solely creating the perfect breeding ground for jihadist movements as I think that ignores the extreme religious component just as it would be remiss to ignore the extreme religious motivation of the Jewish settlers to justify their illegal activities.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I didn't say they were Israel's fault. you said there was nothing between 2005-22 and I corrected that. The stated aim of the total blockade in 2007 was to prevent weapons smuggling. if you want to research it in further detail then by all means but the wiki page gives enough overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
A family member has also been to Palestine/Israel many years ago and said that at each of the crossings there are essentially 2 gates, one for everyone else and one for Palestinians - easy enough for most people to get through but Palestinians can be held up for hours just for the sake of it or refused entry/exit without reason.
They've also largely prevented Gazans from exporting goods which means what economy they did have s basically non existent

I didn't say there was nothing I said more or less in the context of what we've seen unfold in Gaza in the last year and a half.

Apologies, I just feel you have a very one sided analysis of this where essentially it's Isreal = Bad and Palestine = good. Anything bad Hamas do can be justified whereas anything bad Isreal does can't be justified

 

[Which Tyler]

I didn't say there was nothing I said more or less in the context of what we've seen unfold in Gaza in the last year and a half.

Apologies, I just feel you have a very one sided analysis of this where essentially it's Isreal = Bad and Palestine = good. Anything bad Hamas do can be justified whereas anything bad Isreal does can't be justified

NB - EVERYBODY in this thread has said "Hamas = Bad" a shit-tonne of times.
Literally NOBODY on this thread has saif "Hamas - Good" - or anything that could remotely be understood that way.

IIRC we even had a discussion about when we could stop prefacing every post with "Hamas = Bad" precisely because of the dishonest bullshit you're proposing above. IIRC it was about a year into the conflict where we felt we could drop that, because it was taken as read by every single poster.

 

[Welsh Exile]

NB - EVERYBODY in this thread has said "Hamas = Bad" a shit-tonne of times.
Literally NOBODY on this thread has saif "Hamas - Good" - or anything that could remotely be understood that way.

IIRC we even had a discussion about when we could stop prefacing every post with "Hamas = Bad" precisely because of the dishonest bullshit you're proposing above. IIRC it was about a year into the conflict where we felt we could drop that, because it was taken as read by every single poster.

I don't think anyone supports Hamas but as I said in my post above that you said is dishonest BS, I feel like anything bad Hamas do can be justified whereas the same cannot be said for Isreal. Would you say that is unfair of me to think that judging by people's comments on here?

I mean, Ragey, who I like a lot (as I do everyone on here) just said that Isreal create the breeding ground for jihadism so essentially saying it's Isreals fault that the specific form of jihadist terrorism exists even though you won't see any form of that kind of terrorism outside of the Middle East ignoring religious and cultural factors. I can understand how easy it must be to sum up this conflict with everything being Israel's fault and essentially nothing being the fault of Hamas, they have no agency apparently.

 

[Which Tyler]

Sorry, my mistake - you said "Palestine = Good" not "Hamas = Good" - so still dishonest bullshit

 

[Welsh Exile]

Sorry, my mistake - you said "Palestine = Good" not "Hamas = Good" - so still dishonest bullshit

Why is it dishonest?

Care to answer my question? Do you think it's unfair of me to think that judging by people's comments on here being very one sided.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think we all agree Isreal = good and Palestine = good and Netenyahu = bad and Hamas = bad.

Fair?

 

[Ddanno]

I mean, Ragey, who I like a lot (as I do everyone on here) just said that Isreal create the breeding ground for jihadism so essentially saying it's Isreals fault that the specific form of jihadist terrorism exists even though you won't see any form of that kind of terrorism outside of the Middle East ignoring religious and cultural factors. I can understand how easy it must be to sum up this conflict with everything being Israel's fault and essentially nothing being the fault of Hamas, they have no agency apparently.

It is the case though. If you grow up seeing your parents and all of the adults around you persecuted, treated as second class, imprisoned etc etc etc then it won't be too difficult for Hamas to persuade you there's a way to fight back and radicalise you in your formative - and most rebellious - years

 

[Welsh Exile]

It is the case though. If you grow up seeing your parents and all of the adults around you persecuted, treated as second class, imprisoned etc etc etc then it won't be too difficult for Hamas to persuade you there's a way to fight back and radicalise you in your formative - and most rebellious - years

In my opinion it isn't. If that was true every resisistence movement in the world would've been jihadist in nature but they're not. I completely agree with you that the environment fosters a clear opposition and hatred towards Isreal but not jihadism specifically.

Do you think October 7th was a legitimate form of resistance

 

[Ddanno]

Do you think October 7th was a legitimate form of resistance

I'm not even going to dignify that with an answer

 

[Flankers' paradise]

I didn't say there was nothing I said more or less in the context of what we've seen unfold in Gaza in the last year and a half.

Apologies, I just feel you have a very one sided analysis of this where essentially it's Isreal = Bad and Palestine = good. Anything bad Hamas do can be justified whereas anything bad Isreal does can't be justified

it's not about justifying everything Hamas does, it's about not equating them to Israel. One is legally held to be holding an illegal occupation with a high likely intent of committing genocide (ICJ [countries like S.A and Ireland]), the other essentially amounts to an insurgency. It's like equating the IRA with the British government.
I think everyone here expressed their disgust for Oct 7th which, fairly, should've been responded to in the way Israel targeted Hezbollah in Lebanon (intel, direct strikes on military chiefs, the pagers etc) but destroying entire cities/towns/villages, medical and educational facilities, blocking desperately needed aid from reaching the population. 10's of thousands of women/kids/unaffiliated men killed alongside Gazan journalists, medics and foreign aid workers. The UN and other agencies unable to get an accurate recording of how many people dying from famine because Israel denying them access. Israeli leaders like Netenyahu and Smotrich saying things like "the forced expulsion of Palestinians is inevitable" or that victory looks like Gaza being "fully destroyed"

 

[Flankers' paradise]

In my opinion it isn't. If that was true every resisistence movement in the world would've been jihadist in nature but they're not. I completely agree with you that the environment fosters a clear opposition and hatred towards Isreal but not jihadism specifically.

Do you think October 7th was a legitimate form of resistance

This just says you don't know what Jihadism actually means, it refers to the belief that armed confrontation is an efficient and theologically legitimate method of socio-political change towards an islamic governance system. so no, not every resistance movement in the world is jihadist

 

[Ddanno]

My point - apologies if it was poorly made or ambiguous- is that the conditions that Israel have imposed on Palestianians for decades create very fertile ground for Hamas to radicalise young people

 

[Welsh Exile]

it's not about justifying everything Hamas does, it's about not equating them to Israel. One is legally held to be holding an illegal occupation with a high likely intent of committing genocide (ICJ [countries like S.A and Ireland]), the other essentially amounts to an insurgency. It's like equating the IRA with the British government.
I think everyone here expressed their disgust for Oct 7th which, fairly, should've been responded to in the way Israel targeted Hezbollah in Lebanon (intel, direct strikes on military chiefs, the pagers etc) but destroying entire cities/towns/villages, medical and educational facilities, blocking desperately needed aid from reaching the population. 10's of thousands of women/kids/unaffiliated men killed alongside Gazan journalists, medics and foreign aid workers. The UN and other agencies unable to get an accurate recording of how many people dying from famine because Israel denying them access. Israeli leaders like Netenyahu and Smotrich saying things like "the forced expulsion of Palestinians is inevitable" or that victory looks like Gaza being "fully destroyed"

I separate the West Bank stuff as I completely agree with that but we're talking about Hamas and Gaza.

I don't think the Genocide ruling was that there is high probability of a genocide as i remember the ICJ woman on l news night or something having to clarify the misinformation that was put out about that. It was something like the court ruled they had a right to be protected from genocide or something like that (which seems obvious to me but I'll try and dig out the clip in case I heard it wrong) but we'll see how that all pans out I guess.

I just don't think you've ever seen a terrorist group in a resistance movement in a conflict like this before. As I said the other day, I think if Ireland was the size of Gaza and the IRA was going around like Hamas we'd probably still be fighting them to this day but I consider the IRA to be actual freedom fighters/resistance movement who only cared about a free independent Ireland. Sure they did some stuff beyond the pale but it's night and day compared to Hamas and even more so when compared the ANC.

 

[Welsh Exile]

This just says you don't know what Jihadism actually means, it refers to the belief that armed confrontation is an efficient and theologically legitimate method of socio-political change towards an islamic governance system. so no, not every resistance movement in the world is jihadist

I explicitly said no jihadist exists outside of the Middle East's as it's Islamic in nature. I disagree with the contention that Isreal are responsible for this ideology.

 

[Welsh Exile]

My point - apologies if it was poorly made or ambiguous- is that the conditions that Israel have imposed on Palestianians for decades create very fertile ground for Hamas to radicalise young people

Yes I agree with that 100%. Where I disagree is that Isreal is responsible for this specific form of ideology/ terrorist movement. There's lots of ways to fight back that don't involve Hamas tactics.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yes, there's lots of push and pull factors at play for sure and clearly there are genuine reasons for Palestinians to feel aggrieved but I would disagree that it's solely creating the perfect breeding ground for jihadist movements as I think that ignores the extreme religious component just as it would be remiss to ignore the extreme religious motivation of the Jewish settlers to justify their illegal activities.

I never said solely, but the actions of the Israelis in between the major flare ups are a definite contributor. Israel acts like everything that happens to them is unprovoked and yet they are provoking Palestinians non stop, it just gets swept under the carpet in Western media and politics.

This isn't to say the Palestinians are instead the innocent victims, just pointing out Israel are constantly engaging in acts to harm the Palestinians, so arguing they only do it in response to these more extreme events simply isn't true, they are constantly doing it.