A Political Thread pt. 2

[Ragey Erasmus]

In other news, the Trump Whitehouse is threatening all sorts of media organisations with legal action for daring to report in the multitude of lies than ideal things happening in the administration and Trump family.

Free speech for me, not for thee. The period who whined constantly about private entities kicking people off platforms (not a 1st amendment issue) are completely quite at a government threatening legal retribution for stories they don't like (an actual 1st amendment issue)

 

[Which Tyler]

Why is it dishonest?

Because it's untrue.

Tell you what - let's play a game of "show your cards"

ETA: You made a provable statement that others (specifically @Flankers' paradise were saying "Isreal = Bad and Palestine = good"
I refute this, and as we all know, you can't prove a negative.

This site has a functioning search facility.
Please show your cards. Quote something in this thread that could honestly be interpreted as "Isreal = Bad and Palestine = good" and I will retract my refutation - and offer my apology for misrepresenting you.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I never said solely, but the actions of the Israelis in between the major flare ups are a definite contributor. Israel acts like everything that happens to them is unprovoked and yet they are provoking Palestinians non stop, it just gets swept under the carpet in Western media and politics.

This isn't too day the Palestinians are instead the innocent victims, just pointing out Israel are constantly engaging in acts to harm the Palestinians, so arguing they only do it in response to these more extreme events simply isn't true, they are constantly doing it.

Yes I largely agree and it's why I won't listen to your Douglas Murray's or Ben Shapiros who act exactly how you describe, that Isreal is blameless in everything and are just responding to constant attacks. Clearly they are fostering a bad environment that encourages push back. Clearly they have done some reprehensible stuff since 48 (especially since 67) and not just since October 7th but this goes both ways too. Innocent Palestinians and Israelis get caught up in the reckless actions of their ruling governments.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Because it's untrue

Sorry what is untrue? I'm lost now.

 

[Which Tyler]

Sorry what is untrue? I'm lost now.

Sorry, see my edit above; but essentially - the statement I quoted you making, that caused me to jump into this discussion.

You said a thing
I quoted that thing, and refuted it
Are you now say that you're confused and don't know what I was refuting?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Sorry, see my edit above; but essentially - the statement I quoted you making, that caused me to jump into this discussion.

You said a thing
I quoted that thing, and refuted it
Are you now say that you're confused and don't know what I was refuting?

I understand now that I've read your edit.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Because it's untrue.

Tell you what - let's play a game of "show your cards"

ETA: You made a provable statement that others (specifically @Flankers' paradise were saying "Isreal = Bad and Palestine = good"
I refute this, and as we all know, you can't prove a negative.

This site has a functioning search facility.
Please show your cards. Quote something in this thread that could honestly be interpreted as "Isreal = Bad and Palestine = good" and I will retract my refutation - and offer my apology for misrepresenting you.

This, to me, reads like Isreal = Bad Palestine = good.

Got to love the old 'we didn't intend for it to happen' argument.

"Sorry about killing all the Palestinian's but they just kept fighting back or getting in the way instead of surrendering."

As does this.

If the IDF and Israel's mission is to make life for the Palestinians so unbearable that they leave or they are forcibly moved then that is ethnic cleansing and a form of Genocide. Given that many in the Israeli government are pro settling and the Israeli government have absolutely been making life unbearable for Palestinians then it's very easy to level genocide on this current Israeli government.

There's others but to be honest I don't like doing this whole digging out thing. People have read the comments on here we just clearly interpret them in different ways. My initial assertion of Isreal =bad was clearly a simplistic way of saying, I feel that there isn't many posts saying something like "Isreal has done some ****** up **** but maybe there's some reasons in the last 70 years or so as to why successive governments and Israelis have acted or feel the way they do. That's all. If you feel this thread has struck a good balance with that then I would I would just say I disagree. I have a lot of time for people who made those comments and don't think them evil or anything like that and I hope the same courtesy is extended to me.

 

[Ddanno]

Seems fairly obvious that most or all posters are abbreviating slightly

Israel = The Israeli government. Who are evil ********

Palestine = Palestinian civilians with no dog in this fight, being used as human shields and/or target practice

I'm not conflating the above with Israel as a nation or Hamas the terrorist organisation myself.

With respect I think you're misinterpreting people a bit.

 

[Welsh Exile]

With respect I think you're misinterpreting people a bit.

That is certainly possible. I feel as with any convos online a face to face conversations over a pint would fare much better.

 

[Ddanno]

Seems fairly obvious

On a reread this sounds condescending, wasn't meant to be

 

[Ddanno]

That is certainly possible. I feel as with any convos online a face to face conversations over a pint would fare much better.

As always

 

[McTallshort]

If you lived in an open air prison camp which is effectively what Gaza is with no hope of any of life's norms like, career/holidays/peace/security then this will absolutely foster resentment and hate in the same way the Northern Irish government in the 60s treatment of Catholics fostered resentment and hate that led to the rise of the PIRA. To say otherwise is just ignoring the reality

 

[Welsh Exile]

If you lived in an open air prison camp which is effectively what Gaza is with no hope of any of life's norms like, career/holidays/peace/security then this will absolutely foster resentment and hate in the same way the Northern Irish government in the 60s treatment of Catholics fostered resentment and hate that led to the rise of the PIRA. To say otherwise is just ignoring the reality

Im not denying this. This is undeniably true. I'm questioning the inevitability of a Hamas style jihadism and that being solely, or even mainly, Israel's fault.

 

[McTallshort]

This, to me, reads like Isreal = Bad Palestine = good.

Got to love the old 'we didn't intend for it to happen' argument.

"Sorry about killing all the Palestinian's but they just kept fighting back or getting in the way instead of surrendering."

As does this.

If the IDF and Israel's mission is to make life for the Palestinians so unbearable that they leave or they are forcibly moved then that is ethnic cleansing and a form of Genocide. Given that many in the Israeli government are pro settling and the Israeli government have absolutely been making life unbearable for Palestinians then it's very easy to level genocide on this current Israeli government.

There's others but to be honest I don't like doing this whole digging out thing. People have read the comments on here we just clearly interpret them in different ways. My initial assertion of Isreal =bad was clearly a simplistic way of saying, I feel that there isn't many posts saying something like "Isreal has done some ****** up **** but maybe there's some reasons in the last 70 years or so as to why successive governments and Israelis have acted or feel the way they do. That's all. If you feel this thread has struck a good balance with that then I would I would just say I disagree. I have a lot of time for people who made those comments and don't think them evil or anything like that and I hope the same courtesy is extended to me.

And i stand by what I wrote

 

[General Melchett]

October 7th was horrific and rightly gets headlines but it does so because it was one shocking day of terror caused by Hamas. In the same way a plane crash with 100+ deaths makes the news and most car crashes generally don't because in isolation each one is far less shocking. Netanyahu has inflicted multiple October 7th's on Palestinians but has done so in the shadows in a drip fed approach which is why it never makes the news. Hamas are evil scum but Gaza has been an open air prison with Palestinians denied basic rights and freedoms for decades. Nobody is denying that Israel faces unique threats from neighbours like Iran and has done so for decades and it is right that they have been allowed to conduct proportionate military responses and have necessary deterrents in place. Israel however claims to share the same values as most western countries and so while war is awful and has unavoidable horrors I think many people in the west struggle badly when they listen to UN and aid organisation reps level the same criticism at Israel in their deliberate denial of aid and respect for international law when it comes to war.

I still can't get away from the fact that Israeli intelligence is supposed to be top notch (and has proved to be since Oct 7th) but yet they just so happened to have one day day at the office on October 6th just while Netanyahu is under huge pressure to cling on to power? It's all hugely suspicious. We also don't get to hear about the provocations that took place pre October 7th that pushed Hamas into doing what they did, as wrong and horrific as it was. The two state solution was universally accepted by most countries until October 7th but Netanyahu has removed it from the table just because he was backed into a corner and decided to 'go for broke' as a way of saving his own skin. Removing the two state solution is a massive red line for me.

While no two situations are the same it's not like there haven't been similar situations in other parts of the world where leaders found a way to peace or to maintain the status quo. The leadership in Israel and Hamas have failed big time over many years but so have their security guarantors (America and Iran) who should have been able to exert more influence on Hamas and the Israeli Government to avoid what is happening now. I have no affiliation with Israel or Palestine and like to consider myself as objective when it comes to this conflict. I fully recognise the horror of October 7th and the threats Israel face from hostile neighbours but I also think a lot of the criticism and condemnation they get is fair.

 

[Welsh Exile]

And i stand by what I wrote

To be fair, you're first word was "if" even if that was your meaning, which I assumed it was.

 

[Which Tyler]

This, to me, reads like Isreal = Bad Palestine = good.

Got to love the old 'we didn't intend for it to happen' argument.

"Sorry about killing all the Palestinian's but they just kept fighting back or getting in the way instead of surrendering."

As does this.

If the IDF and Israel's mission is to make life for the Palestinians so unbearable that they leave or they are forcibly moved then that is ethnic cleansing and a form of Genocide. Given that many in the Israeli government are pro settling and the Israeli government have absolutely been making life unbearable for Palestinians then it's very easy to level genocide on this current Israeli government.

There's others but to be honest I don't like doing this whole digging out thing. People have read the comments on here we just clearly interpret them in different ways. My initial assertion of Isreal =bad was clearly a simplistic way of saying, I feel that there isn't many posts saying something like "Isreal has done some ****** up **** but maybe there's some reasons in the last 70 years or so as to why successive governments and Israelis have acted or feel the way they do. That's all. If you feel this thread has struck a good balance with that then I would I would just say I disagree. I have a lot of time for people who made those comments and don't think them evil or anything like that and I hope the same courtesy is extended to me.

Yeah, I'm seeing "Israel = bad" clearly meaning the state of Israel (as opposed to the people)
I'm not seeing "Palestine = bad" as in the people, or the pseudo-state of Palestine

 

[McTallshort]

Im not denying this. This is undeniably true. I'm questioning the inevitability of a Hamas style jihadism and that being solely, or even mainly, Israel's fault.

I would say it is inevitable because people without hope or agency will become radicalised. History has shown that many times.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I would say it is inevitable because people without hope or agency will become radicalised. History has shown that many times.

I would strongly disagree and would point to Ireland, South Africa, America and India ;and pretty much most resistance movements in history not leading to Hamas but I would say that is because those movements weren't solely concerned with eradicating the other as Hamas are.

 

[Ddanno]

I would say it is inevitable because people without hope or agency will become radicalised. History has shown that many times.

Quite. You can't expect to treat a population this way and not expect a reaction. And Israel clearly knows this given the walls, armed guards, arbitrary conditions for letting Palestinians through the 'border', etc.

Unfortunately their neighbours - Iran, Yemen etc, are only too happy to continually poke the bear and fund insurgency, which is easy to stoke up when your Dad was imprisoned when you were 8 or your uncle was shot by the IDF in a raid.