A Political Thread pt. 2

[McTallshort]

I would strongly disagree and would point to Ireland, South Africa, America and India ;and pretty much most resistance movements in history not leading to Hamas but I would say that is because those movements weren't solely concerned with eradicating the other as Hamas are.

The PIRA were not radical? The ANC were not a markist terrorist organisation? The black panthers were not radical?

 

[Ddanno]

I would strongly disagree and would point to Ireland, South Africa, America and India ;and pretty much most resistance movements in history not leading to Hamas but I would say that is because those movements weren't solely concerned with eradicating the other as Hamas are.

Ireland - there were no litter bins on the tube for years because of the fear that the IRA would stick a nail bomb in there

South Africa - the ANC were waging a guerilla war for years before 94

America - resisted the legal definition of genocide and had major amendments made to it because of what they did to the Native American population

India - my history doesn't extend to that one. I read a bit about Churchill being a total **** in the 1910's or thereabouts when he was in charge

 

[Welsh Exile]

The PIRA were not radical? The ANC were not a markist terrorist organisation? The black panthers were not radical?

Not Hamas radical dude. Not even ******* close.

 

[McTallshort]

Not Hamas radical dude. Not even ******* close.

Absolutely ******* close

 

[Welsh Exile]

Absolutely ******* close

We clearly have different definitions of close but that's cool.

 

[Ddanno]

Not Hamas radical dude. Not even ******* close.

The IRA did try to assassinate the PM and most of the ruling Tory party....

 

[Welsh Exile]

I guess this is essentially the debate. Most people seem to think Hamas/IRA/black panthers insert any responsive movement here as exactly that a resistance movement as 2 sides of the same coin. I see Hamas differently by the tactics they use and their motivations of their "movement"

 

[Welsh Exile]

The IRA did try to assassinate the PM and most of the ruling Tory party....

Which proves my point. A legitimate (the most legitimate in fact) target for any resistence movement. If Hamas were trying to take out Netenyahu I'd have more time for them.

 

[Ddanno]

Which proves my point. A legitimate (the most legitimate in fact) target for any resistence movement. If Hamas were trying to take out Netenyahu I'd have more time for them.

They'd do it in a heartbeat if they had the opportunity

 

[Welsh Exile]

They'd do it in a heartbeat if they had the opportunity

They don't even try mate. Unlike the IRA/ANC etc their only goal is to kill all the Jews (not just Israelis) and then by default they get the land but the killing Jews bit is their main goal. They proudly admit this.

 

[McTallshort]

I guess this is essentially the debate. Most people seem to think Hamas/IRA/black panthers insert any responsive movement here as exactly that a resistance movement as 2 sides of the same coin. I see Hamas differently by the tactics they use and their motivations of their "movement"

They were/are all radical but the length of the conflict in Palestine had led imo to a hardening of that radicalisation. No matter what people want to believe the British Army never went at the catholic population in the troubles the way the IDF have gone at the Palestinians. There were a number of occasions when wiping PIRA out was a very real possibility but cooler heads prevailed even when Thatcher was in power. But even so the PIRA were quite happy to murder and maim people even some in their own community, image of the troubles had started in 1948 and we're still going on today? How radicalised would the PIRA be now?

 

[Welsh Exile]

They were/are all radical but the length of the conflict in Palestine had led imo to a hardening of that radicalisation. No matter what people want to believe the British Army never went at the catholic population in the troubles the way the IDF have gone at the Palestinians. There were a number of occasions when wiping PIRA out was a very real possibility but cooler heads prevailed even when Thatcher was in power. But even so the PIRA were quite happy to murder and maim people even some in their own community, image of the troubles had started in 1948 and we're still going on today? How radicalised would the PIRA be now?

And if they did an October 7th do you think cooler heads would've prevailed?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Sorry, not to dismiss the rest as I think the length of the conflict is a good point to potentially explain deeper radicalisation.

 

[McTallshort]

The IRA did try to assassinate the PM and most of the ruling Tory party....

They even killed the queens cousin....who might have been a pedophile

 

[McTallshort]

And if they did an October 7th do you think cooler heads would've prevailed?

They did try and wipe out the government, kill a member of the royal family, blow a load of guardsmen up while on parade in London, blow up a remembrance parade in Enniskillen and still cooler heads prevailed

 

[Welsh Exile]

They did try and wipe out the government, kill a member of the royal family, blow a load of guardsmen up while on parade in London, blow up a remembrance parade in Enniskillen and still cooler heads prevailed

All legitimate targets and while I'm sure we didn't look on it too kindly that is what you call a legitimate resistance movement.

Just a little point that really isn't that important in the grand scheme of the atrocity of October 7th, but they filmed it. Imagine the IRA hangliding into some random UK town with go pros and slaughtering/mass raping etc etc, filming it then kidnapping a few hundred people including kids and OAPs. That is completely different to blowing up guardsman or, as I would say, legitimate targets. And I wound argue that rightly or wrongly our reaction would've been nuclear (not literally obviously)

 

[Ddanno]

All legitimate targets and while I'm sure we didn't look on it too kindly that is what you call a legitimate resistance movement.

I dunno that I'd refer to terrorist actions like that (since we're getting a bit semantic anyway)

 

[McTallshort]

All legitimate targets and while I'm sure we didn't look on it too kindly that is what you call a legitimate resistance movement.

Just a little point that really isn't that important in the grand scheme of the atrocity of October 7th, but they filmed it. Imagine the IRA hangliding into some random UK town with go pros and slaughtering/mass raping etc etc, filming it then kidnapping a few hundred people including kids and OAPs. That is completely different to blowing up guardsman or, as I would say, legitimate targets. And I wound argue that rightly or wrongly our reaction would've been nuclear (not literally obviously)

Ok let's agree to disagree but I will leave this final point...during the 30 years of the troubles over 3000 people died. Of those 365 were known to have been killed by the security forces (there were killings due to collusion but I don't know that number) in the last year the actions of the IDF have killed 50k Palestinians and injured another 150k (these are UN figures). There is the difference.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I dunno that I'd refer to terrorist actions like that (since we're getting a bit semantic anyway)

There's no right and wrong answer to the cliched statement of "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" but for me it's really clear. Freedom fighters fight the state that are oppressing/occupying them. They target government infrastructure, government officials and army/police obviously.

Terrorists exclusively target civilians.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Ok let's agree to disagree but I will leave this final point...during the 30 years of the troubles over 3000 people died. Of those 365 were known to have been killed by the security forces (there were killings due to collusion but I don't know that number) in the last year the actions of the IDF have killed 50k Palestinians and injured another 150k (these are UN figures). There is the difference.

Fair enough and my last word would be that if the IRA were Hamas we'd still be fighting them and even old Maggie would've got tooled up and started gunning down Irish left right and center.