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A Political Thread pt. 2

BrokenWing

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Is the fall of saigon ever painted as a victory though?

My point was more about the fact that we seem to paint Dunkirk as some sort of victory when it was basically an escape from a more crushing defeat.
 

ncurd

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Is the fall of saigon ever painted as a victory though?

My point was more about the fact that we seem to paint Dunkirk as some sort of victory when it was basically an escape from a more crushing defeat.
I'm unsure who thinks with a little reflection of Dunkirk as a victory. It's a defeat that allows for a victory of later on. Its about the coming together of small amount of people and what can be achieved as a collective (the small ships). Its about in face of complete devastation some hope can be found that we will continue fighting.

But it's the context that makes that story work it allowed us to eventually be a position to fight back. It within itself was not a victory.

Which is why it's different from Saigon and Afghanistan in that they have no fight to win later. This is the end of lengthy campaign ending in defeat whereas Dunkirk is the beginning of lengthy campaign ending victory.

Either way what Johnson said is nonsense the actual evacuation was a mild success we actually left plenty of people behind. Ongoing efforts by various groups and vested interests are trying their damndest still to get them back home.
 

Reiser99

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Conservatives continuing to show how out of touch they are. I genuinely am amazed that for some people Brexit and sovereignty is more important than the fact that the Conservatives are just targeting poorer people.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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Conservatives continuing to show how out of touch they are. I genuinely am amazed that for some people Brexit and sovereignty is more important than the fact that the Conservatives are just targeting poorer people.
Never mind you need to actually get an education and show a degree of competence to be a GP, the requirements to be an MP are considerably lighter. GPs must also face consequences for mal-practice, MPs don't. No GP as incompetent as Raab, Grayling or Williamson would have been allowed to continue. No GP who showed such a crass disregard for life as many MPs we currently have would have been allowed to continue practicing. No GP would have been allowed to display the level of corruption many MPs have displayed. The code of ethics and practice for GPs has real consequence, for MPs it doesn't.

Literally all you need to be an MP is to be an adult, British citizen and able to convince enough people that you should be one (ie, a prime bullshitter).

These people really do live in their own little bubble.
 

The_Blindside

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E3008297-B416-44B4-ACEC-139FE4E700BE.jpeg

Bojo in his conference speech:” we are going to up skill our economy to a high skilled one. ” Read between the lines no one will want to do the low skilled jobs, so everything is going to be more expensive. Nice one Brexit. What a paradise. As long as the Fish are happy.
 

Dan Kelly is Irish

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Council tax going up

People saying oh you wanted lockdown now you have to pay for it….

How about paying for it by fairer means
 

Reiser99

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heartbreaking.
So depressing. No acknowledgement that conservatives have cut funding to youth services that obviously cost this man his job. Then says that the government is providing for people...

Edit: Even at the end. "Contact your own MP, it's not my problem."
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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So depressing. No acknowledgement that conservatives have cut funding to youth services that obviously cost this man his job. Then says that the government is providing for people...

Edit: Even at the end. "Contact your own MP, it's not my problem."
JRM conducted himself pretty well there to be honest. You can quibble about policy etc but in the situation that was a pretty good response all in all
 

Ragey Erasmus

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So depressing. No acknowledgement that conservatives have cut funding to youth services that obviously cost this man his job. Then says that the government is providing for people...

Edit: Even at the end. "Contact your own MP, it's not my problem."
I have a family member with autism who was diagnosed by a doctor very young. Usually not too many problems but as soon as PIP came in she was having to prove that she was autistic. Also there is a requirement to re-prove it each time as if it would magically ******* go away. The total allowance was drastically dropped, you had to burn through your savings before you were allowed it (because apparently people on very low incomes aren't allowed to have savings at all) and we had a member of the government trying to find every way they could to discredit the doctors diagnosis.

Mogg was lying through his teeth, PIP was designed specifically to get people off the system and reduce payments to those who remained. If you have a mental disability and don't have someone competent to fill out the form, you were virtually guaranteed to lose it. They even tried to use the fact that the form for my sister was correctly filled in as evidence she didn't ******* have autism! (my dad basically filled it out for her). It took weeks to get sorted as they were determined to remove the benefits and my dad even had to go to the local MP and see him directly to argue the case. All of that just so the government would actually accept a doctors official diagnosis that had been made years earlier! It was one of the earlier cases of PIP being refused and eventually overturned, apparently the success rate is extremely low.

This mans story is EXACTLY what PIP was designed to do, kick the disabled off the benefits. To say otherwise is a complete disgrace.

JRM conducted himself pretty well there to be honest. You can quibble about policy etc but in the situation that was a pretty good response all in all

Depends what you think good conduct is, he was telling bare faced lies to this man. As I've had a family member go through the PIP process and what proceeded it I can say without a shadow of a doubt that all his claims about what PIP was for and what it achieved were bare faced lies. Staying calm doesn't mean you are conducting yourself well as there are many people who will talk calmly whilst intentionally pressing all the buttons to wind their opponent up. That is not conducting yourself well. To be fair this isn't a Mogg exclusive issue, it's a Tory issue. They have never been open about the actual results of PIP.
 
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Reiser99

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JRM conducted himself pretty well there to be honest. You can quibble about policy etc but in the situation that was a pretty good response all in all
If that's a good response then it shows the standard of politician you are willing to accept. Almost everything he said was to avoid responsibility. For example: Decisions on youth centres are made by local government, not by central government. Yes, but they are funded by grants from central government, so when the conservatives cut funding, what choice do local councils have? That's not acceptable. Just because he wasn't the one who signed off on the decision to close the youth centre, doesn't absolve him of responsibility. Mogg and the conservatives are systematically attacking the poor to keep them poor and if you think him spouting government rhetoric is a good response then I honestly worry about you.

I imagine you say things like "well other politicians would do the same." Seriously it makes me furious that people excuse the actions of politicians by saying that that is just politics as though politicians are allowed to do things ordinary people can't. That's completely the wrong way round, politicians should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. Yet for some reason people in this country are more than happy to accept pathetic excuses and brush of completely immoral acts as 'politics'. Cameron lobbying for Greensill "well he didn't technically break any rules." Well then the rules are not fit for purpose. Mogg spouting Tory rhetoric. "He did well under the circumstances", well then your standard of politician is pathetic.
 

The_Blindside

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JRM conducted himself pretty well there to be honest. You can quibble about policy etc but in the situation that was a pretty good response all in all
Seriously? The man was quite clearly distressed and for me JRM was acting and tallking like a compassionless twat like he always does.
 

Reiser99

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I have a family member with autism who was diagnosed by a doctor very young. Usually not too many problems but as soon as PIP came in she was having to prove that she was autistic. Also there is a requirement to re-prove it each time as if it would magically ******* go away. The total allowance was drastically dropped, you had to burn through your savings before you were allowed it (because apparently people on very low incomes aren't allowed to have savings at all) and we had a member of the government trying to find every way they could to discredit the doctors diagnosis.

Mogg was lying through his teeth, PIP was designed specifically to get people off the system and reduce payments to those who remained. If you have a mental disability and don't have someone competent to fill out the form, you were virtually guaranteed to lose it. They even tried to use the fact that the form for my sister was correctly filled in as evidence she didn't ******* have autism! (my dad basically filled it out for her). It took weeks to get sorted as they were determined to remove the benefits and my dad even had to go to the local MP and see him directly to argue the case. All of that just so the government would actually accept a doctors official diagnosis that had been made years earlier! It was one of the earlier cases of PIP being refused and eventually overturned, apparently the success rate is extremely low.

This mans story is EXACTLY what PIP was designed to do, kick the disabled off the benefits. To say otherwise is a complete disgrace.



Depends what you think good conduct is, he was telling bare faced lies to this man. As I've had a family member go through the PIP process and what proceeded it I can say without a shadow of a doubt that all his claims about what PIP was for and what it achieved were bare faced lies. Staying calm doesn't mean you are conducting yourself well as there are many people who will talk calmly whilst intentionally pressing all the buttons to wind their opponent up. That is not conducting yourself well. To be fair this isn't a Mogg exclusive issue, it's a Tory issue. They have never been open about the actual results of PIP.
Sorry to hear about your family member. Benefits should be about making sure those that need it are treated fairly. Instead the government has tried to make it as difficult for people as possible to access benefits. It's no surprise that this drive comes at the same time as making it harder for immigrants to come in. Reality is that they want poor British people to go back to being serfs, doing the low-paid job for their rich masters.

Another example. The bedroom tax that hugely affected disabled people who needed the room for their care. The government didn't give a toss and tarred everyone with the same brush.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Seriously? The man was quite clearly distressed and for me JRM was acting and tallking like a compassionless twat like he always does.
Out of curiosity what would you have liked him to do? Start bawling his eyes out, start matching the screaming?

He said he was sorry to hear the issues, pointed him in the direction that he might find some help and acted perfectly respectfully
 

The_Blindside

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Out of curiosity what would you have liked him to do? Start bawling his eyes out, start matching the screaming?

He said he was sorry to hear the issues, pointed him in the direction that he might find some help and acted perfectly respectfully
No, not at all. Perhaps not start debating and defending the Government‘s position which was just crass IMO. He was clearly doing it just for the cameras; no matter how calm he appeared. How about saying something along the lines of “ look I can see the distress you’re under….” Talk to him like a human being. Listen to him. Not talk over him.
 

Reiser99

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Out of curiosity what would you have liked him to do? Start bawling his eyes out, start matching the screaming?

He said he was sorry to hear the issues, pointed him in the direction that he might find some help and acted perfectly respectfully
How about genuinely listening to him and trying to understand his situation? All Rees-Mogg did was talk about what the government has done and told him to contact his MP. The man didn't need that, he was being failed by the system and the cuts that the government put in place. How about listening him, acknowledging that the system isn't working as it should, even if it's just in this man's particular case which is unlikely, and maybe even acknowledging that the government hasn't got it right and needs to do better?
 

Reiser99

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Btw, saw these two articles yesterday and thought they were a good read.


On top I also believe the government is trying to create a low paid British workforce under the guise of nationalism and getting people back into work. They are making the benefits system as unattractive as possible so that it will force people into those low paid jobs that were often filled by immigration. One thing they definitely don't want is a well-educated population who can think for themselves working in good, well paid jobs as that would hurt them in elections.


I especially agree with this one about capitalism, I honestly don't believe there can be anything such as sustainable capitalism and responsible capitalism. Ultimately capitalism is about greed and profit. It is about always have more and sustainability will require some level of reduction where necessary when there are shortages. Simply I believe that some people might try to practise sustainable and responsible capitalism, but at some point they will be forced to choose between profits and sustainability and at that point there is only going to be one winner.
 

The_Blindside

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Yep, capitalism = Greed and profit. I just don’t see how we save the planet in the long term with the world’s economic model and growing population.
 

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