A Political Thread pt. 2

[Reiser99]

On another note what do people think about this?

Prince Harry says UK still his home as he bids for police security on visits

The Duke of Sussex is challenging a government decision to refuse police security during visits.

www.bbc.co.uk

Personally police protection should be limited to important people directly doing a public service role or for diplomats and other high ranking officials of other nations. It shouldn't be for anyone who can pay for it as the police are here to protect the public. While I would prefer the Royal family to be abolished or at least severely scaled back, you can make an argument that the perform a public service still. Harry does not. He should pay for private security out of his own money like any other wealthy celebrity.

Also makes me think of another question. Now that Prince Andrew has had his roles stripped from him, is doing no public events and was going to fight the lawsuit as a 'private' citizen. Does he still get police protection, because he shouldn't either. He can pay for it himself as well since he's loaded enough to pay of Virginia Giuffre.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Is it a false flag though, or a false false flag (so it actually occurred)?

Depends if we choose to believe that the aggressor is:

a) the party who has had its military mobilised and massed in various positions around Ukraine for weeks, who has invaded and incited revolt in parts of Ukraine twice in the past decade and has been making recent demands of Ukraine that it says have gone unanswered.
OR
b) the party with a vastly inferior military, with the aforementioned hostile force mobilised on its borders who decides to embrace extinction by poking the bear at the most strategically idiotic time despite constant warnings from international intelligence agencies that the enemy is looking for any kind of pretext to invade.

Who can say!?

And is one car bomb and a few mortars grounds for widespread evacuation? Or is it a completely overblown response to act as pretext to justify invasion of a non-aggressive neighbour?

We must make up our own minds I guess.

 

[General Melchett]

.

 

[Yulia]

@Gavin the most interesting is that some western officials know better than Russians when exactly and how exactly Russia will do a false flag operation to invade Ukraine.
Our tsar is still waiting for advices from real masters, maybe will use this option:


P.S. don't mess with true political experts, mate

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Ex-police officer Kim Potter jailed for killing Daunte Wright

Daunte Wright's father calls Kim Potter's two-year sentence for manslaughter a "slap on the wrist".

www.bbc.co.uk

In American news - is this progress? 2 years but only serve 16 months, for taking a young man's life.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Depends if we choose to believe that the aggressor is:

a) the party who has had its military mobilised and massed in various positions around Ukraine for weeks, who has invaded and incited revolt in parts of Ukraine twice in the past decade and has been making recent demands of Ukraine that it says have gone unanswered.
OR
b) the party with a vastly inferior military, with the aforementioned hostile force mobilised on its borders who decides to embrace extinction by poking the bear at the most strategically idiotic time despite constant warnings from international intelligence agencies that the enemy is looking for any kind of pretext to invade.

Who can say!?

And is one car bomb and a few mortars grounds for widespread evacuation? Or is it a completely overblown response to act as pretext to justify invasion of a non-aggressive neighbour?

We must make up our own minds I guess.

Probably come out in 50 years it was all the CIA
America love war mongering from the shadows

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Is it a false flag though, or a false false flag (so it actually occurred)?

Why would Ukraine choose this time of all times to do something like that, right with the largest Russian mobilisation since ww2 sat right on their border? Remember the "little green men" in Crimea that Russia denied were their soldiers until it turned out they were their soldiers? The Russian weapons seen moving through Eastern Ukraine last year aiding the separatists, the fact the separatists exist after having Russian soldiers assisting them fighting the Ukrainian army?

And now you wonder if Ukraine mortaring the East at possibly the worst time they could possibly do it might be genuine? Not really buying it.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Probably come out in 50 years it was all the CIA
America love war mongering from the shadows

The US would make more money out of a hostile peace, a puppet regime in Ukraine isn't going to throw any money the US's way on arms. Poland spent around $5 billion on an anti-nuclear missile system happily enough without Ukraine having to be invaded.

It is logical to distrust the US given their history. Personally I detest pretty much every military action they took since WWII. But in this instance over a dozen nations have withdrawn their personnel and this would mean the governments of places like Sweden, Ukraine, Germany, Denmark etc, many of whom would be fairly neutral in Russia/US relations, would all collectively be being duped by the US. Which seems unlikely.

Plus, any prospective arms sales would risk being eclipsed by the financial damage caused by sanctions which the US and EU are committed to in the event of Ukraine being invaded, so I don't see how it can make financial sense for the US. There is also no ideological difference between Russia and the US, they are right wing capitalist states with imperfect democracies.

Whereas parts of Ukraine have had uninvited Russian military based in them since 2014. So we are comparing a hypothetical interest and subterfuge by the US with a very real, proven and ongoing interest by an actively hostile Russia.

We are being asked to believe that the peoples who stood up to the Nazis in Stalingrad would flee in terror at a car bomb and a few shells (resulting in zero casualties).

 

[McTallshort]

Yeh red warning now issued to Southeast from 10am. They should really ground planes. Not worth taking the risk.

I was working down in Salisbury this week. Had a look at the weather Thursday night and decided to cut the week short and head back!

 

[McTallshort]

The US would make more money out of a hostile peace, a puppet regime in Ukraine isn't going to throw any money the US's way on arms. Poland spent around $5 billion on an anti-nuclear missile system happily enough without Ukraine having to be invaded.

It is logical to distrust the US given their history. Personally I detest pretty much every military action they took since WWII. But in this instance over a dozen nations have withdrawn their personnel and this would mean the governments of places like Sweden, Ukraine, Germany, Denmark etc, many of whom would be fairly neutral in Russia/US relations, would all collectively be being duped by the US. Which seems unlikely.

Plus, any prospective arms sales would risk being eclipsed by the financial damage caused by sanctions which the US and EU are committed to in the event of Ukraine being invaded, so I don't see how it can make financial sense for the US. There is also no ideological difference between Russia and the US, they are right wing capitalist states with imperfect democracies.

Whereas parts of Ukraine have had uninvited Russian military based in them since 2014. So we are comparing a hypothetical interest and subterfuge by the US with a very real, proven and ongoing interest by an actively hostile Russia.

We are being asked to believe that the peoples who stood up to the Nazis in Stalingrad would flee in terror at a car bomb and a few shells (resulting in zero casualties).

Different people, different times

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Different people, different times

Very well, for same people same times I'll rewrite it.

Are we to believe that the people who endured the past 8 years living in a warzone with 14,000 reported deaths would flee in terror at a car bomb and a few shells (resulting in zero casualties)?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

World intelligence agencies: "Russia has massed troops and is looking to stage a false flag operation to justify invading"
Russia with a mass military buildup: "no no no, we have NEVER lied about anything to do with Ukraine... Apart from all those times we lied when we last invaded"

Few days later: Mass evacuation of occupied Eastern Ukraine by rebels with contacts in Russia based on unfounded accusations of a Ukrainian offensive despite no buildup or evidence of it.

Yeah I mean come on, they aren't even being subtle about it. So Ukraine just HAPPENS to decide that the prime time to launch an offensive against eastern Ukraine is when the Russian army has spent months massing on the borders just looking for an excuse to invade? Jesus Christ how much must you bend reality to believe that!? In the last decade Russia has invaded Georgia, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. It has also had a heavy troop presence in Syria. It has been caught lying about troops in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. If Russia isn't planning an invasion the could anyone offer a sensible explanation for why they have the largest military buildup since WW2 on their border?

 

[Yulia]

We are being asked to believe that the peoples who stood up to the Nazis in Stalingrad would flee in terror at a car bomb and a few shells (resulting in zero casualties).

Yeah, especially our/Uzbekh/Tadjikh/Ukrainian/Jewish and other oligarchs would have stood up to the Nazis...

 

[Reiser99]

World intelligence agencies: "Russia has massed troops and is looking to stage a false flag operation to justify invading"
Russia with a mass military buildup: "no no no, we have NEVER lied about anything to do with Ukraine... Apart from all those times we lied when we last invaded"

Few days later: Mass evacuation of occupied Eastern Ukraine by rebels with contacts in Russia based on unfounded accusations of a Ukrainian offensive despite no buildup or evidence of it.

Yeah I mean come on, they aren't even being subtle about it. So Ukraine just HAPPENS to decide that the prime time to launch an offensive against eastern Ukraine is when the Russian army has spent months massing on the borders just looking for an excuse to invade? Jesus Christ how much must you bend reality to believe that!? In the last decade Russia has invaded Georgia, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. It has also had a heavy troop presence in Syria. It has been caught lying about troops in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. If Russia isn't planning an invasion the could anyone offer a sensible explanation for why they have the largest military buildup since WW2 on their border?

Thing is it doesn't matter whether you or I or the NATO countries believe it, it's whether the Russian people believe it. It's an excuse Putin can give for an invasion which from my understanding most Russians wouldn't support unless it was in response to something. This way he can give keep up appearances and maintain that Russia is defending its interests from aggression.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Thing is it doesn't matter whether you or I or the NATO countries believe it, it's whether the Russian people believe it. It's an excuse Putin can give for an invasion which from my understanding most Russians wouldn't support unless it was in response to something. This way he can give keep up appearances and maintain that Russia is defending its interests from aggression.

You only have to look at Georgia, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine to see it appears the Russians have bought what they were told hook, line and sincker. I can't imagine it will take a particularly complex false flag to be deemed a suitable enough excuse to invade, especially as the Eastern Ukrainian rebels are already cooperating with Russia and will happily and easily set up whatever situation Russia wants.

 

[Yulia]

@Ragey Erasmus you know better what was going on/is going on in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine than Crimeans, Russians and Ukrainians,of course.
On the serious note, I have two acquaintances from Donetsk who left it a year ago and found jobs in Russia. They moved somewhere in the night from Tuesday to Wednesday and didn't answer by phone after, just one of them wrote they "had to leave" and won't be available by phone. Think they were mobilised and had to go back to Donetsk both are nice and pretty young men, a bit nervous for them..
My relatives in Western Ukraine are pretty relaxed though, my uncle goes to work as usual...so these are good news at least

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Yeah, especially our/Uzbekh/Tadjikh/Ukrainian/Jewish and other oligarchs would have stood up to the Nazis... View attachment 13364

A lot of people made a bad call with the Nazi's before their true horror was revealed. 3 years before Stalingrad, the opposing sides were brothers-in-arms in this escapade after all.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

And here is a pop quiz. Here are maps based on the Donbas front since hostilities commenced based on reports of towns and villages changing hands. Can you spot the precise moment when the Russia government absolutely did not intervene in the conflict?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

@Ragey Erasmus you know better what was going on/is going on in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine than Crimeans, Russians and Ukrainians,of course.
On the serious note, I have two acquaintances from Donetsk who left it a year ago and found jobs in Russia. They moved somewhere in the night from Tuesday to Wednesday and didn't answer by phone after, just one of them wrote they "had to leave" and won't be available by phone. Think they were mobilised and had to go back to Donetsk both are nice and pretty young men, a bit nervous for them..
My relatives in Western Ukraine are pretty relaxed though, my uncle goes to work as usual...so these are good news at least

I mean you literally had the Russians with unmarked soldiers in Crimea denying they were there until those same soldiers were shown with their Russian insignia re-attached after they had occupied the area... Pretty sure plenty in Crimea would have denied the Russians were invading right as it was happening.

By all means feel free to explain why the Russians are massing their troops on the border with Ukraine or why Russian soldiers and equipment have been photographed and videoed operating in Eastern Ukraine?

If Russia invades in the next few weeks because of "Ukrainian actions against the breakaway regions" will you buy it?

 

[Yulia]

Well, I already shared my thoughts in this thread about Russian troops near the borders as well as about Crimea. Although,these were only thoughts, I don't know real plans.

why Russian soldiers and equipment have been photographed and videoed operating in Eastern Ukraine?

Russian soldiers in the Russian army uniform there? Fake.
Private military contractors- true, I'm sure 100%. But that's not the same.

If Russia invades in the next few weeks because of "Ukrainian actions against the breakaway regions" will you buy it?

No, of course NO. That doesn't mean Ukrainian troops are not gathering and performing actions there though. But it's their right, I must admit. I don't think that Russia will directly invade,but will support Donbass anyway.Actually, I'm pretty sure there are already some actions for it..but again, only my thoughts, noone will share a serious information with me
Recently, Ukrainian president blamed the West in "pumping of a tension" (but he also added that Russians "play" for this tension as well, keeping the troops near the borders) and it all caused serious problems in Ukrainian economy.