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A Political Thread pt. 2

Ragey Erasmus

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Seems the Republican party have decided the way forward is to double down of the cult mentality of Trump. That party is a lost cause now, they have completely lost the plot. This cultish devotion to ******** is how tyrants get into power. Republicans have shown there is no limit to what they will do to try to secure power now.
 

Welsh Exile

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Seems the Republican party have decided the way forward is to double down of the cult mentality of Trump. That party is a lost cause now, they have completely lost the plot. This cultish devotion to ******** is how tyrants get into power. Republicans have shown there is no limit to what they will do to try to secure power now.
They are in a very interesting place. On the one hand, the only reason why America has bucked the trend and voted in a so called progressive like Biden is because Trump was so toxic but then, on the other hand, Trump won more votes in the election just gone than he did in 2016 and some might argue if it wasn’t for Covid he would’ve won a second term.

So do they double down, as you say, or do they drift more towards the center and risk alienating the new voter base that Trump has gathered together in the last 5 years or so.

It seems that the global political trend now isn’t about economics, or even policy, but culture. It’s what Brexit and Trump were good at exploiting and it’s what Boris and Cummings also exploited.

I actually worry that if the GOP appoint the right leader/**** and Biden has a tricky term dealing with Covid and what have you then they could be right back to square one again. And, let’s be honest, if they did they woukd just be following the trend that the majority of the western world is falling into. In that I mean, a rejection of the left as a whole or, at the very least, the “extreme” left.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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They are in a very interesting place. On the one hand, the only reason why America has bucked the trend and voted in a so called progressive like Biden is because Trump was so toxic but then, on the other hand, Trump won more votes in the election just gone than he did in 2016 and some might argue if it wasn’t for Covid he would’ve won a second term.

So do they double down, as you say, or do they drift more towards the center and risk alienating the new voter base that Trump has gathered together in the last 5 years or so.

It seems that the global political trend now isn’t about economics, or even policy, but culture. It’s what Brexit and Trump were good at exploiting and it’s what Boris and Cummings also exploited.

I actually worry that if the GOP appoint the right leader/**** and Biden has a tricky term dealing with Covid and what have you then they could be right back to square one again. And, let’s be honest, if they did they woukd just be following the trend that the majority of the western world is falling into. In that I mean, a rejection of the left as a whole or, at the very least, the “extreme” left.
I think you're right when you say it's a culture thing, or more a perceived attack on western culture (even though some of the greatest perpetrators are on the right wing). Neither the Tories nor Republicans are in power because their economic credentials or social policies stand on their own 2 feet. In both the UK and US the records show the economy has performed better under Labour / Democrats than Conversatives / Republicans certainly for the last 40 years or so. It's why when you get to the heart of it, economics and policy rarely factor in, it's the plain old nationalist vote as the economic arguments simply don't hold water.
 

ncurd

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Interesting read, basically how the red wall always had a soft underbelly and how Labour are completely ****** currently.

 

Reiser99

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For me it's actually very simple. Those traditional labour voters in red wall area are not people on the left. They actually are on the right, some quite far on the right and have far more in common with conservatives than labour. The reason they voted labour was never because labour was on the left, but labour built it's reputation of being the party of the poor. However social classes are changing and are actually more complicated than just poor, middle and upper. On top these traditional classes mean less nowadays than they used to. Once people stop voting based on the simple notion that labour is for the poor and conservatives are for the rich they were always going to struggle. Instead they now find themselves in the same situation as the Greens and Lib Dems, fighting over the people who are progressive and on the left, which ultimately is less than the number on the right. I said before this is actually a very conservative country and without the Brexit party the conservatives have almost a monopoly on the votes to the right.
 

Welsh Exile

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For me it's actually very simple. Those traditional labour voters in red wall area are not people on the left. They actually are on the right, some quite far on the right and have far more in common with conservatives than labour. The reason they voted labour was never because labour was on the left, but labour built it's reputation of being the party of the poor. However social classes are changing and are actually more complicated than just poor, middle and upper. On top these traditional classes mean less nowadays than they used to. Once people stop voting based on the simple notion that labour is for the poor and conservatives are for the rich they were always going to struggle. Instead they now find themselves in the same situation as the Greens and Lib Dems, fighting over the people who are progressive and on the left, which ultimately is less than the number on the right. I said before this is actually a very conservative country and without the Brexit party the conservatives have almost a monopoly on the votes to the right.
I agree with almost every word of this except for the end. I’m not 100% sure we are a conservative nation I mean, I can totally understand why you think this and your post makes total sense but we’ve had many elections where more people have voted for non Tory parties than for the Tories themselves but due to a **** system we have to put up with them. Then you have a whole load of people in this country who don’t vote at all that probably aren’t traditional Tories in their thinking. I assumed you were talking about the voting public, though.

I’m in 2 minds about the whole thing tbh.
 

ncurd

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I wouldn't say this country is very right wing (well maybe England) but over 50% of voters have voted for parties to the left of the Conservatives in every election since 1959 (other than 2015 and 2017 where Con/UKIP/BXP/DUP edged it).

I don't think we are as left as Labour want us but the majority aren't Conservative and have only ever won over 50% of the vote when running as the "National Government" in the 30's and when it was the Conservative & Lib. Unionist party.

The issue is FPTP allowing us to believe in a right wing majority rather than one really existing.
 

TRF_Olyy

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I think it was on Reddit that I saw it, but there was a big long post about the traditional labour stronghold being socially right-wing but economically left wing - however now that trust in Government has eroded so much(/people have forgotten about the Thatcher years) people are swayed more by social issues rather than economic ones ("They're all as bad as each other" kind of attitude with regards to Tory sleaze, budget cuts etc., whereas one party claims to be strong on immigration/whatever whereas the other doesn't)
 

Stus7

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I think it was on Reddit that I saw it, but there was a big long post about the traditional labour stronghold being socially right-wing but economically left wing - however now that trust in Government has eroded so much(/people have forgotten about the Thatcher years) people are swayed more by social issues rather than economic ones ("They're all as bad as each other" kind of attitude with regards to Tory sleaze, budget cuts etc., whereas one party claims to be strong on immigration/whatever whereas the other doesn't)
I think people have always been swayed more and get more passionate about social issues than economic. But the current perception of wokeness accelerated by the media has caused increasing numbers to turn away from Labour and they’re going to struggle to get people back without doing some pandering to people with different social ideas. Gonna be difficult though.
 

Reiser99

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I agree with almost every word of this except for the end. I’m not 100% sure we are a conservative nation I mean, I can totally understand why you think this and your post makes total sense but we’ve had many elections where more people have voted for non Tory parties than for the Tories themselves but due to a **** system we have to put up with them. Then you have a whole load of people in this country who don’t vote at all that probably aren’t traditional Tories in their thinking. I assumed you were talking about the voting public, though.

I’m in 2 minds about the whole thing tbh.
I wouldn't say this country is very right wing (well maybe England) but over 50% of voters have voted for parties to the left of the Conservatives in every election since 1959 (other than 2015 and 2017 where Con/UKIP/BXP/DUP edged it).

I don't think we are as left as Labour want us but the majority aren't Conservative and have only ever won over 50% of the vote when running as the "National Government" in the 30's and when it was the Conservative & Lib. Unionist party.

The issue is FPTP allowing us to believe in a right wing majority rather than one really existing.
Fair enough, I agree. I still think this country is far more conservative than it tries to portray itself, but certainly the voting system helps the conservatives immensely.
 

The_Blindside

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Prime example at the end of the GOP (Congressman Andrew Clyde) trying to gaslight Americans and likening the events of January 6th to a tourist visit.
 

Al Bangor

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Which Tyler

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So if the measures in the Queen's Speech all become law, then social media companies will have a duty to 'act on content that is lawful but still harmful such as abuse that falls below the threshold of a criminal offence' and may be fined if they don't.
But universities, colleges and students' unions will have a duty to permit such speech or they may be sued.
You could be invited to speak at my old uni, and they'd have to allow it, but wouldn't be allowed to post clips of the event on Twitter.
Make sense of that.
So, going back to this, the Universities Minister was interviewed and it was put to her that since Holocaust denial is legal speech in the UK, if a university refused to allow a Holocaust denier to speak at their campus, under the government proposals, that speaker could sue. She agreed.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-minister-says-universities-face-24102126

The Prime Minister and Education Minister then went on record to insist that this was not the case, and that they would never ever permit Holocaust denial on campuses.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...ation-secretary-higher-education-b934963.html

This means one of two things: either the government are about to make Holocaust denial illegal - unlikely, since they've said nothing about it in their manifesto or the Queen's Speech - or they haven't thought their 'free speech' proposal through and are only now realising what it actually means. (Much more likely as Johnson has form on not considering the implications of his policies.)

I look forward to the government's detailed guidance on exactly what legal speech we have to permit and what legal speech we are under no circumstances to permit, and how to tell the difference.
 

Gavin

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The operation of the Northern Ireland Protocol has been likened to the Vichy regime, during a legal challenge at the High Court in Belfast.

Vichy was the collaborationist French administration during Nazi occupation.

John Larkin QC made the analogy in his opening argument on behalf of unionists politicians.

The comparison is outrageous and IMO unacceptable.

But this is the world we will in. Brexiters will cheer this, believing it to be true, not understanding how ludicrous it is.
 

Groundhog

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New DUP leader Edwin Poots believes the earth is 6000 years old, doesn't like gay people, is probably really good at saying OUT very loudly and has a family tree with more overlap than the Habsbergs if you took a second look. All in all pretty moderate for the DUP!
 

Ragey Erasmus

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New DUP leader Edwin Poots believes the earth is 6000 years old, doesn't like gay people, is probably really good at saying OUT very loudly and has a family tree with more overlap than the Habsbergs if you took a second look. All in all pretty moderate for the DUP!
A family shrubbery more than a family tree
 

The Alpha Bro

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The comparison is outrageous and IMO unacceptable.

But this is the world we will in. Brexiters will cheer this, believing it to be true, not understanding how ludicrous it is.
If you read between the lines I think it's the DUP complimenting the protocol. They wouldn't disparage fascism.
 

Gavin

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Will be really interesting to see how they work out the basic rate for everyone.

Labour definitely doing well in Wales.

I listened to Drakeford's usual interview with James O'Brien on LBC and it was questioned how Labour is bucking the trend in Wales. Drakeford stated that he believe people are more likely to vote Labour when they're currently in power, and can see the results...
 

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