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A Political Thread pt. 2

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Hamas are far from good guys but there's no justification for what Israel has done and continue to do.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Hamas are far from good guys but there's no justification for what Israel has done and continue to do.
Obviously that's debatable, but this example probably isn't the best one to use to justify that stance. Given they told all in the building to evacuate (as they normally do) well before it was attacked, and the IDF are justifying it by saying it was home to Hamas military assets, it doesn't seem totally unjustifiable given the current circumstances.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Depends if you choose to believe their propaganda, I guess.
The building is home to multiple press agencies (ones actually reporting on what is happening in Gaza at the moment, unlike the majority of western news agencies atm) and was home to the ISP servers for most of Gaza, now cutting them off from the internet (meaning citizens can't broadcast the atrocities being committed by the IDF on social media anymore) - very convenient.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Depends if you choose to believe their propaganda, I guess.
The building is home to multiple press agencies (ones actually reporting on what is happening in Gaza at the moment, unlike the majority of western news agencies atm) and was home to the ISP servers for most of Gaza, now cutting them off from the internet (meaning citizens can't broadcast the atrocities being committed by the IDF on social media anymore) - very convenient.
It's not like it would be out of character for Hamas to have been using it - they have done so regularly in the past
 

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It's not like it would be out of character for Hamas to have been using it - they have done so regularly in the past
Oh aye,
Don't get me wrong - I've no love for Hamas or anything close, they're a legitimate terrorist organisation that claims noble causes

I just have very real issues with how heavy handed Israel are (and historically have been) in their responses to Hamas - especially as they are very often (and are in this case) the aggressor/flash point.
The numbers of Israeli vs Palestine injuries/causalities is incredibly lopsided which is unforgivable considering the military might Israel has at their disposal.
They're very happy to see X amount of "collateral damage" for Y amount of Hamas targets hit, without realising that "X" has a face, a name, a family, a life.

122 Palestinians have died in the 5 days since the Israeli government authorised Palestinian families be kicked out of Sheikh Jarrah.
31 of those are children.

31 dead children.

Israeli forces attacked Al Aqsa mosque a few days ago, which is something like the 3rd most holy location in Islam(? citation needed) - throwing stun grenades inside the building and shooting people with rubber bullets as they fled - this is literally a war crime, as well
 

The_Blindside

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A vicious cycle of unending violence, with Israel having the much bigger arsenal to kill and maim or defend itself whatever way you want to look at it. But solves nothing, only breeding more hatred and contempt from the Palestinians trapped/killed in Gaza, West bank occupied territories.
Not even a close contest. What an absolute mess yet again and even when it does stop only a matter of time before the violence and killing begins again.

Street fighting between Jews and Arabs, and attacks on innocent people and businesses on either side? That can’t be justified whatever way you look at it.
 

TRF_Olyy

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It's an impossible situation really, I have no idea how it could be solved

A two state solution looks completely off the table/not a viable possibility with the way that Israel has encroached onto Palestinian land since it's founding

How do you make a legitimate Palestinian state with it as segmented as it is
1621109240195.png
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Oh aye,
Don't get me wrong - I've no love for Hamas or anything close, they're a legitimate terrorist organisation that claims noble causes

I just have very real issues with how heavy handed Israel are (and historically have been) in their responses to Hamas - especially as they are very often (and are in this case) the aggressor/flash point.
The numbers of Israeli vs Palestine injuries/causalities is incredibly lopsided which is unforgivable considering the military might Israel has at their disposal.
They're very happy to see X amount of "collateral damage" for Y amount of Hamas targets hit, without realising that "X" has a face, a name, a family, a life.

122 Palestinians have died in the 5 days since the Israeli government authorised Palestinian families be kicked out of Sheikh Jarrah.
31 of those are children.

31 dead children.

Israeli forces attacked Al Aqsa mosque a few days ago, which is something like the 3rd most holy location in Islam(? citation needed) - throwing stun grenades inside the building and shooting people with rubber bullets as they fled - this is literally a war crime, as well
Oh that's absolutely reasonable, and both sides are undeniably guilty of some horrendous things, but I struggle with the idea that there is a moral equivalence here. I would also dispute whether this current situation is really of Israel's design but it's 6 of one half a dozen of the other really.

The casualty numbers are an interesting / horrible moral dilemma to have and I'm not 100% sure where I stand. Israel does go to respectable effort to minimise civilian casualties, especially when Hamas are using those civilians as human shields but don't have a perfect record. I also don't know whether the casualty numbers are a great way to judge the situation - just because you are **** at war / losing doesn't make you any less despicable and make the other guy iygm thoughts. As long as Hamas continues to use those civilian sites (they've used hospitals and schools in the past as well) then there will be inflated civilians casualties - of course, that doesn't excuse them, but it makes it much much harder to negotiate around.

I don't know how you bring it to a close, and there's a part of me that thinks it probably never will be. It's a catch 22, if Hamas etc lay down their weapons, you will probably see continued, but slow amalgamation of Palestinian territories into Israel, but the people that live there will probably be fine and it would likely be peaceful. If Israel lay down their weapons, they're wiped off of the map almost instantly by all the countries and governments around them who are (many/most) constitutionally mandated to work for their "ultimate destruction" and the deaths of all their citizens. I don't know what you do - and to be fair the best minds internationally have been trying to work it out for a century!
 

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And yet Palestinians still voted in Hamas over Fatah. You got to ask why even though they know exactly who they are and it’ll mean a lot more on their side dying.
 

TRF_Olyy

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just because you are **** at war / losing doesn't make you any less despicable and make the other guy iygm thoughts.
The thing with this line of thought is that Hamas is a small part of Palestine and the occupied territories - the vast majority of these deaths in Palestine are civilians getting caught in the crossfire

I'm, obviously, not saying that all deaths on the Israeli side are military as Hamas fire rockets indiscriminately (though Iron Dome takes out the majority of those) and bomb buses etc., but from what I've read the civilian causalities are heavily weighted towards the Palestinian side

Like you say, though, Hamas are happy to use human shields to fire these rockets/stash their weapons etc. but it doesn't make the accounts of Mothers mourning their babies, children mourning their parents etc. any easier to read

The whole political scene is a mess, and I don't see an end to it, but there needs to be an end to violence - and I think Israel could realistically achieve that.
I understand that they want to flex their muscles because they're surrounded by potential enemies, and they want to look strong in the face of provocation (though in this case it's retaliation not provocation) but, as I mentioned in my post above, the collateral damage in these shows of force is disgusting


And yet Palestinians still voted in Hamas over Fatah. You got to ask why even though they know exactly who they are and it’ll mean a lot more on their side dying.
I imagine it'd be quite an easy sell, tbh - Hamas style themselves as the defenders of Palestinians in the face of the aggressors from Israel
Obviously I don't agree with it, but I can understand their popularity amongst an oppressed people
 

Gavin

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I don't think there will be a Palestine in 20 years time, and governments will do nothing to truly stop it.

It other news. Praise the new DUP leader

Screenshot_20210516-002536__01.jpg
 

Gavin

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A good video to demonstrate how indoctrination of young people can occur in the United Kingdom.

A lot of talk, rightly, on the issue with Israel and Palestine but Northern Ireland has a similar issue with people being born and brought up to hate the other side.

Some interesting quotes:

I like British Values

What is Protestant culture - bonfires, band parades, Orange Orders

My Nanny and Grandad drummed it into me I was going to be a Protestant

If the Union doesn't survive what happens to Unionism - they are just going to take over, well try and take over, the Catholics and the people from the South they'll think they run this place, and run our culture into the ground

If a United Ireland happens in 10 years time how would your life look - wouldn't like it, move away, feel under threat even walking down the street, they're going to steel everything from us, our freedom, they want out culture away already

Down to lack of education and critical discussions in family units, but also lack of investment in poorer areas.

Do they think if you are Catholic you can't be British? What about all the Catholics living in Great Britain?
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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A good video to demonstrate how indoctrination of young people can occur in the United Kingdom.

A lot of talk, rightly, on the issue with Israel and Palestine but Northern Ireland has a similar issue with people being born and brought up to hate the other side.

Some interesting quotes:



Down to lack of education and critical discussions in family units, but also lack investment in poorer areas.

Do they think if you are Catholic you can't be British? What about all the Catholics living in Great Britain?
Living here, I am yet to meet a young Catholic person who calls themselves British tbf, but then again it constantly shocks me how few people on both sides over here have left NI and seem to think Scotland etc are equally divided.

Mind boggling
 

The_Blindside

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Always find TLDR as a good impartial source for information

1621271427980.jpeg
This a pretty good book I read ages ago on the back ground as well 6 day war.
 

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