A Political Thread

[Reiser99]

If there is a term that is currently driving me mad it's "The Will of the people"

It's the way people use it as though the whole country is united. The country is just as divided as Parliament, but just aren't given as many opportunities to show it. The other one is "It's the people vs politicians". Again the people saying it keep making out like everyone is united together. It's pathetic and barely any journalists call them out on it. The is a referendum majority and that's about it.

 

[Which Tyler]

1975 was overturned

Out of interest - how many times does parliament get to vote in a 3 month period, on exactly the same thing with no new information before it becomes undemocratic?
Equally, how much time has to elapse before the people getting a vote on a different thing and in the light of lots and lots of new information, before it doesn't get labelled as undemocratic?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Is it democratic that the overwhelming majorities in Scotland and NI's wishes aren't represented? I know the UK is only a faux unitary state but if they persist with the Vichy style governments in those places and recognise a level of separation (Act of Union 1801) it hardly feels democratic to force the desire of England's and Wales' majority on them?

Another referendum should absolutely be considered, it's not undemocratic to realise you've made a massive **** up by relying on Cameron's, at the time unknown and pro remain, replacement - who is unfortunately the perfect mix of stubborn, spineless, ambitious and mentally deficient to take the position and run the country into a cul de sac, making them look pitiful in comparison to the EU in the process. If that was on the ballot paper I doubt too many would have gone for it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

When you break it down it's wild that a 2nd referendum isn't even on the table

Incredibly narrow victory where the winners were proven to have cheated and broke multiple laws

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

When you break it down it's wild that a 2nd referendum isn't even on the table

Incredibly narrow victory where the winners were proven to have cheated and broke multiple laws

At less than they got a plurality of the votes

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Good that Disney has rehired James Gunn.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Just to be clear, you know the back stop issue was the British Government's proposal, because they didn't want to agree to the EU's proposal and now we are the ones asking to change what we originally proposed because we don't like it anymore? You do realise that right?

that's not quite true we where offered the proposals by the EU, the UK had to accept or decline and many MPs have declined that's called democracy.

 

[Reiser99]

that's not quite true we where offered the proposals by the EU, the UK had to accept or decline and many MPs have declined that's called democracy.

Sorry I should have been cleared. They proposed the idea, but we proposed the legalities of it which are in the withdrawal agreement.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

For all those Brexiteers who are fed up with the E.U, how can they claim our country will be fine when it's led by such an incompetent Parliament and Government.

I don't think parliament are incompetent, the facts are simple the majority of people voted to leave, yet the majority of MPs want to stay, and they have the upper hand.

 

[General Melchett]

The Speaker making what seems to be a big announcement in the HoC at the moment. Sounds like he is refusing to let May have another meaningful vote on the same deal that was voted on last week in this session of Parliament which ends in July. The deal would have to change significantly and as the EU have said no more changes so looks like curtains for May's deal until July. Stay tuned folks.

 

[Which Tyler]

Looks like Parliament (Bercow) won't allow the same motion twice in one session.
He allows that there was enough negotiation and change between January and March, with new documents and new advice.

He states precedent going back a mere 4 centuries and Rei forced by (IIRC) a dozen different speaker's.
ETA, now an article up: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47614074

 

[Which Tyler]

Brexiteers suggesting the same rule should apply to amendments - specifically stated the (rejected) amendment (to a specific motion) last week that parliament take control of itself for a day, rather than being told what to talk about by the government - but obviously thinking about the (rejected) amendment (to a specific motion) that a second referendum should happen.

 

[Which Tyler]

May's spokesman releases a statement to say that he's not in a position to release a statement.

May's legal advisor (if I've got that right) suggests dissolving parliament for a few days and starting a new session.

Lots of Tories complaining that Bercow isn't helping them (which isn't his job). Shades of Haskell thinking the ref should coach them how to adapt to a law he didn't know about.



Nothing boring about politics this last 7 days

 

[ncurd]

Brexiteers suggesting the same rule should apply to amendments - specifically stated the (rejected) amendment (to a specific motion) last week that parliament take control of itself for a day, rather than being told what to talk about by the government - but obviously thinking about the (rejected) amendment (to a specific motion) that a second referendum should happen.

Its an intriguing notion, but most amendments are 'vague' plus there is what Labour apparently suggested at the weekend. That there be a second referendum on May's deal or remain as part of change to the legislation to May's deal. I'd argue that was a substantial enough change to satisfy the speak and technically substantial enough different from that amendment which just called for a referendum with no detail on the opinions (if I remember).

 

[ncurd]

May's spokesman releases a statement to say that he's not in a position to release a statement.

May's legal advisor (if I've got that right) suggests dissolving parliament for a few days and starting a new session.

Lots of Tories complaining that Bercow isn't helping them (which isn't his job).



Nothing boring about politics this last 7 days

Can May just dissolve parliament and claim its a new session? It would require a Queen's speech I'm thinking....

Basically apart from a GE how is it normally done?

 

[Which Tyler]

Its an intriguing notion, but most amendments are 'vague' plus there is what Labour apparently suggested at the weekend. That there be a second referendum on May's deal or remain as part of change to the legislation to May's deal. I'd argue that was a substantial enough change to satisfy the speak and technically substantial enough different from that amendment which just called for a referendum with no detail on the opinions (if I remember).

Personally I'd suggest that amendments aren't motions, and shouldn't be confused as such.
The same amendment to the same motion - fair enough, would be pointless. But the same amendment to a different motion is a different thing.

Of course, it's down to the speaker's personal opinion, and he's also allowed to waive this rule if he believes government as acting in good faith (he said something about enabling parliament, rather than bypassing)

 

[ncurd]

Aye an amendment calling for a delay in Brexit to conduct a referendum and an amendment calling for a motion to be put to referendum are actually separate thing in of themselves.

A call for any motion (and thus passing the speakers substantially different test) to be put to a referendum will always be different.

 

[Which Tyler]

If I've wrapped my head around all of this correctly, options going forward are:

Parliament is paralysed, and we'd drop out with no deal next Friday => probable violence on the streets.

Parliament "porogues" (new word for the day, dunno if I've spelt it right), reopens next week with a new session => no violence on the street as no-one knows WTF is going on. May's deal gets a 3rd hearing.

May asks for a short extension to hold a general election => probably rejected as it doesn't solve anything.

May asks for a short extension to allow a second referendum => probably granted, result of 2nd vote probably depends on the weather.

May asks for a long extension in order to renegotiate from scratch => probably granted on condition that Mays red lines are withdrawn.

May asks for extension, but Farage ('s rupels) convince Italy to veto the extension => article 50 revoked, possible more minor violence on the streets.

May asks for extension, but Farage ('s rupels) convince Italy to veto the extension => drop out with no deal, see point 1, probable violence on the streets

 

[ncurd]

I read somewhere the prevailing winds on Italy vetoing an extension are slim. Simply put Italy has their own fights with the EU to be had and them ******* the EU off is not wisest of moves.

 

[Which Tyler]

I read somewhere the prevailing winds on Italy vetoing an extension are slim. Simply put Italy has their own fights with the EU to be had and them ******* the EU off is not wisest of moves.

Agreed. But enough €€€€€...