All Blacks rest 9 senior players for 3N tour to SA

Discussion in 'Tri Nations 2009-2011' started by TRF_stormer2010, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    Yeah, honestly I would rather have seen Donnelly make this trip than hoeata. If push came to shove and Boric wasn't fit for the WC I'd take Donnelly over Hoeata any day.
     
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  3. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    look when it comes to all the above moral standards you mentioned, every South African Administrator except maybe for Danny Jordaan who organised the Fifa World cup, won't have any of those traits!

    they lie and stab each other in the back because they know they f-ed up with PDV and some other appointments in a management perspective... like me and stormer2010 also mentioned in another thread, it's a miracle the Boks has won so many historic games under PDV's rule and to be brutally honest Oregan Hoskins and Jurie Roux in the Saru dept makes every rugby fan in SA furius with all the **** going on here...

    All of a sudden they wabt to bring back the dreaded quota system again, this when we have an average of 5 to 6 players of colour in the 22 for the boks...

    Bottom line... us Saffers like to lie and BS the Aussies, coz they do it to us on the field, pay the refs in advance etc. etc. etc...

    Lol
     
  4. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    well the worst thing about those 21 odd players who were training hard while the squad was in AUS & NZ.... is that they were away from the influence of PDV and they will be better players for it :p
     
  5. ACT1NUP

    ACT1NUP Academy Player

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    I actually hope SBW starts and plays himself out of world cup contention. The likes of Gear, Guildford, Jane, Sivivatu, Kahui, Toeava, Dagg are all far better RUGBY players than the over rated Williams. Should be Kahui or Toeava that gets SBW's spot, that would open up another spot for a player who would otherwise miss out. I'd hate to see any of those players miss out just to accomodate Williams, who can offload aannndddd not much else.
     
  6. Shaggy

    Shaggy First XV

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    I agree, Australia should be able to keep their own boat afloat, but they should be able to count on their SANZAR partners to fulfill what they have agreed to, to do it. It's easy to say that it's not an issue when South Africa (and New Zealand), send weakened sides for their away matches, when they receive full strength Australian sides. I can't see how Australia aren't contributing for there 33% (it's actually less) when they provide a competitive team ... I can't see that playing Namibia and Zimbabwe and inviting a few Argentinean teams into the Currie cup are going to do anything for the strength of South African rugby, or it's revenue streams.

    ... Regardless of whether you are pro or against SANZAR, the money has to come from somewhere, and it requires other unions in partnerships, TV rights, and sponsorship ... individual unions are still going to be expected to fulfill their promises
     
  7. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    I honestly think SBW is going ok, people have doubts over him but in all honestly I have more doubts over Nonu. One thing that really bugged me about the first to tri nations tests for the all blacks was why did Dan Carter have to do so much defending? he's also looked very frustrated on defence at times like he's having to make tackles he shouldn't have to When you look at the stats for the Aussie game it becomes obvious. Carter made 15 tackles, Nonu Made 4 and missed two (for the record the stats say Sonny made 4 tackles in only about 10min in that game). Also look at the SA game and the smit try, carter attacked Smit on defence and made a good effort nonu did almost nothing, infact he went backwards and Smit pretty much scored the try at nonu's feet. If nonu had attacked smit with Carter as he should have that try wouldn't have been scored - I also have a feeling that SBW wouldn't have stood back and let that happen either.

    It's great that carter is so awesome on defence but it's not his job to cover for a weak link on at 12, and what happens when carter's off the field? Slade wont hold up to that pressure on defence.

    All Blacks have attacking weapons all over the park, that's no problem. But a weak link in defence is a real worry.

    I dont think SBW is a great choice for the 22 jersey, but he will get his chance to start in the next two games - that's when he's a lot stronger and I bet my house he puts a better effort in on defence than Nonu has in the first two tests.
     
  8. dan the man

    dan the man Bench Player

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    This has been a talking point amongst my friends and I for a few weeks now... With Nonu playing some of his best (attacking ;)) Rugby of late it's hard to imagine an All Blacks starting backline without him, in saying that SBW is definitely not a good option to come off the bench as he can only really play in one position. I'd much prefer someone like Israel Dagg or Ben Smith to be in the 22 jersey. So really unless SBW showed that he was good enough to start i wouldn't pick him in my squad at all...
     
  9. ACT1NUP

    ACT1NUP Academy Player

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    I actually don't rate Williams any more than Nonu. Atleast Nonu would know the defensive systems of rugby better than Williams, who on occasion has looked like a headless chicken on D. Nonu has more experience, a good combination with Smith, is a proven match winner in the AB environment, and sucks up as many defenders as Williams does if not more. There is just noway Williams will take the 12 jersey off Nonu this year. I thought it was great that the NZRU managed to lure Williams over but I just don't think he deserves a place in the world cup 30 unless there are injuries. As others have mentioned he can't even play more than one position so can't even provide much cover on the bench and he ain't starting so I think it should be a case of thanks but no thanks for Williams. Wonder if Henry and co have the balls to do it.
     
  10. UilamOsa

    UilamOsa Academy Player

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    Some of DC's tackling was the channel between him and Nonu, the Wallababies had a lot of outside runners. I think Nonu (not trying to make an excuse for him) was looking at the potential threats.
    That said, it shows the faith the current combination have in each other. The only obvious thing that I saw Nonu completely fail at was Smit's try. He should've "smashed em bro"

    SBW needs to play like he did against the sharks in the Semi's. Not running angles all the time. He's 6'2+, over 100kgs and a pure athlete. He should be more than an offloading machine especially in the All Blacks.

    If he can't develop by the World Cup's end, then he's definitely surplus too requirements.
     
  11. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    people say williams looks like a headless chicken but to be honest I think that's bulldust. The fact is that he works hard on defence and when he needs to tackle someone they end up on the deck. The reality is that williams is making tackles and he makes more tackles than Nonu and has a better succes rate with his tackles.

    I'm not a huge SBW fan and I have been a big supporter of Nonu and what he's done since 08 but the stats of the last two games paint an ugly picture for Nonu's defence. Attack is one thing, nonu provides great energy on attack and a big workrate. But the WC is likely going to be won on defence, the knock out games are going to be all about defence.

    honestly how can a goy go 80min and only make 4 tackles and miss two when the guy next to him had to make a game high 15 tackles. Something is wrong.

    It's true SBW isn't quite right for the 22 spot. But I think when he gets a chance to start and play 80min he will impress and overall his defence will be a class above what Nonu has done this year.

    Another thing I like about SBW's game is that he's actually become very good at the breakdown, helping to win and secure ball when needed. Not the best technique but he uses his size and strength to great effect.

    It's true though come finals time if Nonu does turn out to be the best option at 12 then the 22 jersey should go to Dagg, Toeava, Jane or Kahui - one of those guys depending on who's in the startign lineup. Dagg and Kahui in particular are proven performers off the bench who can punish tired defenders. Nonu too could be used in that role if SBW or someone else starts at 12.

    One guy I think needs to pick up his game is Sam Whitelock, he hasn't impressed in the games so far. I dont think he has been right since is ancle injury - hasn't found form since. He's not coming up with any big plays and he's not sticking out anywhere on the stats sheats, his workrate around the park has even been less than some of the all black props. Owen Franks and Crockett have been super impressive around the park though, Ben too.
     
  12. donmcdazzle

    donmcdazzle First XV

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    It'd be good if Kahui or Smith played 12, that'd be a good combo.

    SBW infuriates me, he has every physical gift any player could ask for, yet it seems he is the only one who doesn't realise it. If I was his size I'd go full pace at half gaps all game, he'd make serious yardage if he just ran straight and hard instead of crabbing across the field and throwing it away when someone half grabs him.

    His defence is fine like you mentioned Larksea, certainly no worse than Nonu. I think a lot of people get frustrated with the way he plays given the potential for how effective he could be.
     
  13. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    ...and then SBW comes on and makes 4 tackles in 12 minutes; that's a rate of 27 tackles in a full match.

    Now I am a fan of SBW and the way he plays, but its simply not fair on Nonu to make the comparison you have (Nonu 4 tackles in 80 minutes, Dan Carter 15 tackles in 55 minutes). The number of tackles you make in a game can very much depend on two factors

    1. Your opponent's game plan
    2. Your teams defensive strategy

    If the oppo have decided to run at the inside channel a lot then 10 and 7 are going to get high tackle counts, and in the game to which you are referring (v Australia), that is exactly what happened, with Carter and McCaw both topping the count with 15.

    Playing at 2nd 5/8 with Copper miss-passing a fair bit, its possible for Nonu to end up rarely being in a positoon to make a tackle, and you find the centre ends up making quite a few; and that too is what happened (Conrad Smith 7, SBW 4, together 11 tackles at centre).

    So the statistics don't always tell the full story, which is why game analysts never rely on just the numbers in their analyses; in short, the stats support a conclusion but are not the sole provider of one.

    Reminds me of an old saying (and a true one). "You should always use statistics in the same way that a drunk uses a lamp post.... for support, not illumination"
     
  14. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    that's true cookie but note I didn't only site the tackle count, the telling factor for me was the look of frustration on carters face at times. he was clearly ****** and it seemed to me because he was having to make tackles he shouldn't had had to make. And to me it seemed like many of the important tackles he made weren't in the normal 10 channel.

    if anything I wonder if it was the teams gameplan to let nonu relax on defence so he could concentrate on being the main ball carrier on attack. but 4 tackles with 2 missed is still shocking as an overall game stat. Defence is more important and protecting Carter is more important.
     
  15. SavageLez

    SavageLez Academy Player

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    I think that resting these players could backfire. Why?

    1. Richie McCaw has hardly played this year. Much like 2007, wrapped in cotton wool and not match fit come RWC)
    2. Getting key combinations wrong come RWC (back 3 in particular).
    3. What happens if key players are injured? SBW has not played with Conrad Smith for a long time and/or Carter since S15 and similarly Nonu has not played Test rugby with Slade.
    4. Not starting with SBW!

    NZ have basically endorsed Nonu and Smith as starting centres. That is a big relief for many Test Nations after watching SBW in this years S15. He is has the X Factor that LOMU had in the RWC 95 & 99. The only positive for all other nations is that he is not starting. Thank God!

    NZ should win this years RWC but if they don't these are the reasons.
     
  16. SavageLez

    SavageLez Academy Player

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    All my money was on the CRUSADERS beating the REDS but....just like REDS pipped the CRUSADERS I see NZ getting pipped at the final hurdle again!
     
  17. Shaggy

    Shaggy First XV

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    I think the reason they are playing the fringe players is to have them match fit and ready, if injuries occur to the front line players - Ritchie and co will return for the match in Brisbane, so they'll get game time, and not have to worry about the one week turn around between games, or the travel factor to and from South Africa.

    ... I get the point about establishing the back three combination, but everyone has a different opinion on who the top back three actually are at the moment, and the guys returning from injury need to play, so, it's now or never.

    Personally, I couldn't give a rat a*se about all this "player with X factor" stuff ... Lomu looked good at those tournaments, but the ABs didn't win them, did they? ... I think the tournament will be one by the team that acts as a cohesive unit, with reliable combinations ... i'm sure SBW and Kahui will get game time during the pool play (if they make the squad), with both Nonu and Smith, even if it's only for part of some of the games
     
  18. SavageLez

    SavageLez Academy Player

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    I hope that works for them but NZ have easy Group matches barring the French game so my thoughts are that these players rested may be undercooked come RWC knockout stages!
     
  19. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    I think it would be good now for the All Blacks top side to play and gel combinations but weighing that up against the -ve aspect of making another long haul trip to south africa for just one game doesn't seem worth it to me.

    I expect to see the Key All Blacks back for the final test against Aussie, Carter, McCaw, Read, Owen Franks in particular. Owen Franks really impressed me in the last game. Some of the breakdown work he did was mind blowing and his defence was bone jaring. Look at Kevin mealamu's try again. that Try was scored because of the cleanout that Owen Franks did. That kid has spunk.

    I do expect the Aussies to direct interesting/questionable tactics towards Carter & McCaw again if they get the chance before the WC. It's nothing new, they have had to deal with it for years. But the stakes are going up with the WC so close.
     
  20. Larksea

    Larksea First XV

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    it worries me too, a big factor in the 2007 loss was the weak pool games, the worst part was the teams upset the AB's by commiting regular penalties to upset the AB's gameplan to try and "limit the damage" the all blacks did. The fact scotland fielded their B team against the all blacks just made it worse.

    Was good to see that france are in NZ's pool so maybe the AB's will get one good game. Though there is talk that france will field a B team like Scotland did which will totally suck.

    The Reality is that NZ will likely go into the quater final a little undercooked again, hopefully not as bad and with less injuries that they had in 2007. As long as they get through it they will be a better team in the Semi.
     
  21. DJRonStar

    DJRonStar Academy Player

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    I think Tonga will be more of a challenge than most are predicting. They are a very physical side so the AB's shouldnt worry about not getting a good workout.

    Am sick of hearing what will the ABs do without Carter and MCaw. I think MCaw is inspirational as a leader but as a player I think he is not as good as he was in 2007. Carter too is not the player of old but in saying that he did have a blinder against the Wallabies a few weeks back.

    Good luck ABs!!
     
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