All Blacks squad for their end of year tour

[osmond]

Heres my squad. I've added a few players that most people would overlook.

Hookers: Keven Mealamu, Andrew Hore

Props: Tony Woodcock, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, John Afoa

Locks: Brad Thorn, Sam Whitelock, Tom Donnelly, Anthony Boric

Loose Forwards: Jerome Kaino, Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Vitor Vito, George Whitelock (backup number 7, can also play 6 and 8, better than Braid and Latimer in my opinion)

Halfbacks: Piri Weepu, Jimmy Cowan

First-Fives: Dan Carter, Colin Slade, Aaron Cruden

Centres: Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Robert Fruean

Wings: Cory Jane, Rene Ranger, Hosea Gear, Julian Savea (amazing form in the ITM cup, can beat almost anyone one on one)

Fullbacks: Mils Muliaina, Israel Dagg

I'd also like to see Charlie Ngatai thrown in even though he hasn't played Super 14. Solid player who can goalkick too. Dont think we'll see him till after the world cup though, but I expect him to be the future Ma'a Nonu.

 

[Dizzy]

well Savea was the World Under 20 Player of the Year so he's definitely going to become something

 

[Darwin]

Heres my squad. I've added a few players that most people would overlook.

Hookers: Keven Mealamu, Andrew Hore

Props: Tony Woodcock, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, John Afoa

Locks: Brad Thorn, Sam Whitelock, Tom Donnelly, Anthony Boric

Loose Forwards: Jerome Kaino, Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Vitor Vito, George Whitelock (backup number 7, can also play 6 and 8, better than Braid and Latimer in my opinion)

Halfbacks: Piri Weepu, Jimmy Cowan

First-Fives: Dan Carter, Colin Slade, Aaron Cruden

Centres: Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Robert Fruean

Wings: Cory Jane, Rene Ranger, Hosea Gear, Julian Savea (amazing form in the ITM cup, can beat almost anyone one on one)

Fullbacks: Mils Muliaina, Israel Dagg

I'd also like to see Charlie Ngatai thrown in even though he hasn't played Super 14. Solid player who can goalkick too. Dont think we'll see him till after the world cup though, but I expect him to be the future Ma'a Nonu.

Good looking team - by the sounds of it the AB selectors will be likewise selecting only two hookers and two halfbacks (with cover from Afoa and Cruden respectively). George Whitelock is a good solid player who will certainly be in contention - I really don't think there are any standout 7's in the NPC so wouldn't be surprised if any of Latimer, Dan Braid, George Whitelock, or even Karl Lowe were selected.

Personally I think the RWC might come a year too early for Savea. He's undoubtedly an amazing attacking player, but he still has a lot of work to do on other aspects of his game, such as defense and basic ball handling skills. The AB selectors are generally picking more complete wings, so he may find it difficult to get selected at this stage.

I haven't been impressed at all by Ngatai this year - he looked exceptional at times last year in the limited gametime he had during the NPC, but hasn't been near as impressive this year from what I've seen (though to be fair I've only seen 2-3 Wellington games this year). When he burst onto the scene last year he came with reputation of being an elusive player, as he was one of the top secondary school sprinters in the country. He seems to have bulked up a huge amount however (he's listed at 105kg!), and because of this he seems to have lost a lot of speed and agility. He was solid during the Under 20 RWC - I can't remember him making many errors or missing any tackles, however I don't remember him breaking the line once - dispite the huge number of linebreaks the team made. He certainly seems to have a lot of talent, but I wonder whether losing some weight may benifit him in the long run.

 

[ranger]

Heres my squad. I've added a few players that most people would overlook.

Hookers: Keven Mealamu, Andrew Hore

Props: Tony Woodcock, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, John Afoa

Locks: Brad Thorn, Sam Whitelock, Tom Donnelly, Anthony Boric

Loose Forwards: Jerome Kaino, Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Vitor Vito, George Whitelock (backup number 7, can also play 6 and 8, better than Braid and Latimer in my opinion)

Halfbacks: Piri Weepu, Jimmy Cowan

First-Fives: Dan Carter, Colin Slade, Aaron Cruden

Centres: Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Robert Fruean

Wings: Cory Jane, Rene Ranger, Hosea Gear, Julian Savea (amazing form in the ITM cup, can beat almost anyone one on one)

Fullbacks: Mils Muliaina, Israel Dagg

I'd also like to see Charlie Ngatai thrown in even though he hasn't played Super 14. Solid player who can goalkick too. Dont think we'll see him till after the world cup though, but I expect him to be the future Ma'a Nonu.

There was a reason i didn't include Whitelock, he has been very dissapointing. He gives away so many silly penalties, his running isn't anything to write home about at all and while he makes alot of tackles, he doesn't turn over much ball. He can't play 8 really, and even 6 is a stretch, they had to move McCaw to 6 to accomodate him last year. Tanerau Latimer plays the same kind of game without giving away penalties.
There are better options around than this guy

 

[Shaggy]

There was a reason i didn't include Whitelock, he has been very dissapointing. He gives away so many silly penalties, his running isn't anything to write home about at all and while he makes alot of tackles, he doesn't turn over much ball. He can't play 8 really, and even 6 is a stretch, they had to move McCaw to 6 to accomodate him last year. Tanerau Latimer plays the same kind of game without giving away penalties.
There are better options around than this guy

Richard "Pod" Turner was saying on Radio Sport, as an outside chance that might take a younger specialist 7, and he suggested BOP's Sam Cane ... tried to find out a bit about this guy, but couldn't find much ... he was also saying that the only reason SBW wouldn't go, is if he's injured

I'd be interested to read what you guys think of Sam Cane

 

[ranger]

Richard "Pod" Turner was saying on Radio Sport, as an outside chance that might take a younger specialist 7, and he suggested BOP's Sam Cane ... tried to find out a bit about this guy, but couldn't find much ... he was also saying that the only reason SBW wouldn't go, is if he's injured

I'd be interested to read what you guys think of Sam Cane

I think hes such an outside chance its ridiculous that Turner brought it up. Hes still what, 18? and doesn't even have a starting position in his ITM team. hell when Solomon King is fit he might not even have a spot in the 22.
Hes obviously a very talented player, but far too early for him. People say Cruden is too young, and he has already captained the NZ under 20s to a world championships as well as being in a less demanding position in the backs. This guy is an untested 18 year old flanker? no thanks

 

[Shaggy]

I think hes such an outside chance its ridiculous that Turner brought it up. Hes still what, 18? and doesn't even have a starting position in his ITM team. hell when Solomon King is fit he might not even have a spot in the 22.
Hes obviously a very talented player, but far too early for him. People say Cruden is too young, and he has already captained the NZ under 20s to a world championships as well as being in a less demanding position in the backs. This guy is an untested 18 year old flanker? no thanks

Thanks Ranger, that's what I thought, while it would be great to bring a young, genuine openside in at some stage to backup and eventually replace Ritchie, this year's probably not the year to do it ... they'll most likely take D.Braid to play it safe

 

[Darwin]

There was a reason i didn't include Whitelock, he has been very dissapointing. He gives away so many silly penalties, his running isn't anything to write home about at all and while he makes alot of tackles, he doesn't turn over much ball. He can't play 8 really, and even 6 is a stretch, they had to move McCaw to 6 to accomodate him last year. Tanerau Latimer plays the same kind of game without giving away penalties.
There are better options around than this guy

Interestingly, when George Whitelock burst onto the scene (for Otago) he played largely at number 8, and he was touted as having great ball skills and a strong running game. He showed glimpses of this strong running game during his first season, but his running game seems to have got worse each year since. As you say, he either need to improve his running game or get more accurate at the breakdown if he is going to make his way back into the AB's.

 

[wheelie19]

tour squad (and rwc squad?)

This would be my line-up (doesn't differ too much from the others ):
1. Tony Woodcock
2. Kevin Mealamu
3. Owen Franks
4. Brad Thorn
5. Anthony Boric
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieren Read
9. Peri Weepu
10. Daniel Carter
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Cory Jane
15. Mils Muliaina
16. Andrew Hore
17. John Afoa
18. Tom Donnelly
19. Victor Vito
20. Jimmy Cowan
21. Colin Slade
22. Israel Dagg

R. Ben Franks
R. Sam Whitelock
R. Daniel Braid
R. Liam Messam
R. Alby Matthewson
R. Sonny Bill Williams
R. Luke McAlister
R. Isaia Toeava

Afoa would act as third hooker. Mackintosh and Tialata aren't really up to test level I don't think (Mackintosh looked very out of place last time he was tried and he hasn't exactly improved). The locks are standard I think (although I would like Ali Williams to make a good comeback). In the loosies Messam is a little better than Thomson and Vito is a decent all-rounder. Braid is a solid openside flanker who has never really been given a fair shot at the big time. Three halfbacks as Cowan needs more game time to get his form back and Matthewson needs to be tested more. Cruden blew his chance (I don't think he should have been an AB anyway) and Slade has plenty of potential. Rokocoko is truly past it and I don't think Sivivatu has ever scored from an onside position. When McAlister was in form I have no doubt he was the best second-five in the world. Unfortunately that was awhile ago but I think he needs to be in a top environment to reach top form (look at how well he played for the NZ Maori). And let's be honest, Nonu's kicking and passing game leave a fair bit to be desired. SBW can cover both midfield positions; we'll just have to wait and see how well. As for Toeava, I would love to see more of him at fullback, remember him in the Tokyo game last year? Dynamite.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I get so frustrated with the people calling for Cruden to be dropped in favour of Slade based on one test. Cruden dominates for Manawatu behind, let's be honest, a hard working but not great pack and with lesser backs outside him. Slade gets an armchair ride behind the Canterbury forwards and has a A grade backline outside him. Have a look at how well Slade went in the first half against Manawatu this year when the Cantab forwards were going backwards for a change.. he was invisible. Also Cruden's restarts and kicking aren't a problem (he would hardly have been starting for the canes if he couldn't kick like everyone suggests). the guy got nervous in his first test start, i'm sure he will be better for the experience.

Some crazy suggestions here too.. Charlie Ngatai you can't be serious. Treeby is by far a better player and that's just in wellington.

I'd like to see rokocoko and stanley left out in favour of sonny bill and fruean.

 

[Shaggy]

I get so frustrated with the people calling for Cruden to be dropped in favour of Slade based on one test. Cruden dominates for Manawatu behind, let's be honest, a hard working but not great pack and with lesser backs outside him. Slade gets an armchair ride behind the Canterbury forwards and has a A grade backline outside him. Have a look at how well Slade went in the first half against Manawatu this year when the Cantab forwards were going backwards for a change.. he was invisible. Also Cruden's restarts and kicking aren't a problem (he would hardly have been starting for the canes if he couldn't kick like everyone suggests). the guy got nervous in his first test start, i'm sure he will be better for the experience.

Some crazy suggestions here too.. Charlie Ngatai you can't be serious. Treeby is by far a better player and that's just in wellington.

I'd like to see rokocoko and stanley left out in favour of sonny bill and fruean.

Most of the comments i've read are along the lines that both Cruden and Slade should both go on the EOY tour for that reason (it's too early to tell/neither has had enough game time) - I think Graham Henry hinted that this could be a possibility in an article I read on NZ Herald website recently.

I agree that it would be great if SBW and Fruean could both be tried - i think it's as much about combinations as it is about individual skills, when it comes to the mid field, so it would be good to see them both have some game time together, particularly as Kahui is injured.

 

[Amobokoboko]

I'm very curious to see the new guns step up the scene and show what they are capable on the other hand it would be great to see some of the magic Joe the Rocketman and Siva are up to.

 

[Darwin]

I get so frustrated with the people calling for Cruden to be dropped in favour of Slade based on one test. Cruden dominates for Manawatu behind, let's be honest, a hard working but not great pack and with lesser backs outside him. Slade gets an armchair ride behind the Canterbury forwards and has a A grade backline outside him. Have a look at how well Slade went in the first half against Manawatu this year when the Cantab forwards were going backwards for a change.. he was invisible. Also Cruden's restarts and kicking aren't a problem (he would hardly have been starting for the canes if he couldn't kick like everyone suggests). the guy got nervous in his first test start, i'm sure he will be better for the experience.

Some crazy suggestions here too.. Charlie Ngatai you can't be serious. Treeby is by far a better player and that's just in wellington.

I'd like to see rokocoko and stanley left out in favour of sonny bill and fruean.

I'm certainly not suggesting dropping Cruden for Slade based on one test. I'm suggesting that they should pick Slade over Cruden, based on what I've seen over the entire season. Cruden's form in the Super 14 wasn't outstanding - the AB's coaches have admitted that Cruden was a project.

I completely disagree that Cruden's kicking isn't a problem. Personally I believe at test level you need to be able to kick the ball more than 30 metres - I have never seen a test first-five who has such a limited range with their punting. The AB's were unable to get out of their 22 for long periods against the Wallabies as Cruden's clearing kicks only went about 30 metres, and often skewed infield. Interestingly, the best clearing kick of the test for the AB's was probably by Richie McCaw! I'm sure over time he will improve this aspect of his game, however I think kicking is one of the primary attributes required by a first-five, so until he gets this up to standard I wouldn't select him.

The other aspects of Cruden's game are obviously very strong - he takes the ball to the line very well, has a very good short kicking game, is solid in defense (despite his small frame),and reads the game well - once he improves his long kicking game (and kickoffs and goalkicking) he's going to be a pretty outstanding player!

 

[markshaw]

Keep both of them in the All Blacks and let them fight it out. Best answer to the problem

 

[squirrel]

i still get the feeling its abit of a sympathy selection but lets face it hes not good enough yet

 

[markshaw]

IF we do end up NEEDING him which i dont think we will really..the team around him has what it takes to cover the hole left by cater..and it can only do him good being in the all blacks. everybody seems to take the low road by saying hes not good enough etc.. colin slade is bloody good and its neck and neck between them. both of them have strong games and are stronger then each other in certain areas. trust the coaches though, they know what they are doing more then us

 

[donmcdazzle]

I'm certainly not suggesting dropping Cruden for Slade based on one test. I'm suggesting that they should pick Slade over Cruden, based on what I've seen over the entire season. Cruden's form in the Super 14 wasn't outstanding - the AB's coaches have admitted that Cruden was a project.

I completely disagree that Cruden's kicking isn't a problem. Personally I believe at test level you need to be able to kick the ball more than 30 metres - I have never seen a test first-five who has such a limited range with their punting. The AB's were unable to get out of their 22 for long periods against the Wallabies as Cruden's clearing kicks only went about 30 metres, and often skewed infield. Interestingly, the best clearing kick of the test for the AB's was probably by Richie McCaw! I'm sure over time he will improve this aspect of his game, however I think kicking is one of the primary attributes required by a first-five, so until he gets this up to standard I wouldn't select him.

The other aspects of Cruden's game are obviously very strong - he takes the ball to the line very well, has a very good short kicking game, is solid in defense (despite his small frame),and reads the game well - once he improves his long kicking game (and kickoffs and goalkicking) he's going to be a pretty outstanding player!

This is kind of what I'm talking about. You say you're basing your opinion on the whole season but you then say he has no range and needs to work on kick offs.. if you had seen him in last years ITM cup or this years super 14, nobody was saying "he can't kick". It was one nervy test start. His punting is fine. (For some reason he took most kicks of his left foot in that period you are talking about when we were camped in our half, not sure why he did that.. nerves, bad decision making..?) As a Manawatu supporter I've never thought he couldn't kick, in fact his kick offs are usually a strong point of his. His goalkicking is fine for ITM cup level or even super 14 but not on the same level as the top international kickers and this is what he needs to work on the most.

I'm not trying to stir or create an argument, I think both are good young players. I just think some of the tags being put on him are unfair based on one game.

 

[Seaton]

I know how to solve all these player arguments


Flip a coin and send the 'loser' to Scotland to play for them, then just wait until they come up against each other at international level, and see who wins the 'duel'

Might take a bit a of waiting but I think it's practical.


Oh, and who's that super bearded guy who plays for North harbour/some other team they played recently, take him with!

 

[Darwin]

This is kind of what I'm talking about. You say you're basing your opinion on the whole season but you then say he has no range and needs to work on kick offs.. if you had seen him in last years ITM cup or this years super 14, nobody was saying "he can't kick". It was one nervy test start. His punting is fine. (For some reason he took most kicks of his left foot in that period you are talking about when we were camped in our half, not sure why he did that.. nerves, bad decision making..?) As a Manawatu supporter I've never thought he couldn't kick, in fact his kick offs are usually a strong point of his. His goalkicking is fine for ITM cup level or even super 14 but not on the same level as the top international kickers and this is what he needs to work on the most.

I'm not trying to stir or create an argument, I think both are good young players. I just think some of the tags being put on him are unfair based on one game.

Well we will have to disagree on his punting ability then - he has never been a strong punter of the ball in my opinion. A huge number of people (me included) questioned his inclusion in the AB's after this years Super 14, with one of the main reservations being that he can't punt the ball any distance! I don't thinking his punting is anywhere near the standard required for a test first-five. I do agree that some part of the poor kick-offs could be attributed to nerves, however they didn't really improve during the match - if they were entirely down to nerves you would expect them to improve as the match went on.

On Cruden's goalkicking: Personally I don't believe kicking at 57% (12/21) is acceptable for super 14 level. He also kicked less than 60% during last years NPC - I don't think that is acceptable even at NPC level. Apparently his goalkicking is improving, however at this stage I certainly wouldn't want him kicking goals at super 14 level.

I have no doubt the AB selectors will take him on the end of year tour (along with Slade). However, if we had a big RWC match this week (with Carter injured) I would be terrified if Cruden was starting - I would certainly start the likes of Slade, Delany, Donald, Brett or even MacAlister ahead of him. I have no doubt that he's going to be an outstanding All Black, I just don't think he is ready yet... hopefully he will be by the time the RWC comes round!

 

[osmond]

Charlie Ngatai will be an All Black. People forget or dont realise that he's been going through illness. Robbie Fruean lost form after he had heart surgery, look at him now. Ngatai just needs some time, maybe 1 or 2 seasons in the Hurricanes. By then the likes of Maa Nonu and Conrad Smith would have gone overseas or retired. Shaun Treeby is probably a bit too small to make it to the top in the centres, but I have to agree that he has been impressive for Wellington so far. As for the underrated George Whitelock he has actually had a pretty good season as Canterbury captain. Ive been watching him closely and his workrate is definitely up there. I dont think Karl Lowe, Braid, Latimer or Waldrom are better than him anyway. Yes Tanerau plays a similar game to Whitelock but he has what Tanerau lacks, size. Then again, I cant imagine Whitelock making the All Blacks 22 bar injuries given the absolute class that we already have.

And same goes for Cruden, just give him time, hes still very young. I dont think he will ever have a game that bad again, its only got to get better from there. James o'Connor was like that last year.