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All Blacks squad for their end of year tour

What have you got against Leonard smartcooky?

Nothing. Leonard is a good reliable tradesman scrumhalf at NPC/S14 level, but that's all. He's not up to test standard.

After 2005, when Justin Marshall retired, and Byron Kelleher went north, Weepu, Ellis and Cowan became the All Blacks halfbacks until Piri, for some still unknown reason, fell out of favour with Ted. Leonard had made some good showings at the lower levels and was drafted into the All Blacks. and ended up in the 2007 RWC squad. This is where he was found out when he was asked to step up to Test Rugby. He didn't cut the mustard against the tougher opposition.

Leonard's selection instead of Weepu for the 2007 RWC was IMO, one of two major selection blunders made by Ted for, and during, that campaign (the other one being not picking Aaron Mauger over Luke McAlister in the quarter final - I firmly believe that if Weepu and Mauger had played in that match, we would likely have won it.)

That match probably would have been his last in the Black jersey had Ellis not been injured in the 2009 Super 14 (playing for six weeks with cracked ribs), so Leonard was brought in as cover. The four tests that he played in 2009 (plus the loss to the Barbarians) were his last outing in an Black jersey. Shoirt of another halfback injury disaster, I doubt we will see him again.


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I'm both happy and sad about Hosea Gear:
He deserves to be there, and is on good form but he's going to tear England a new one...again :(

Not surprised about SBW, as someone said above, it's been the worst kept secret in rugby. Big shame about Freun though, he's been easily as good as SBW, but them's the breaks I guess.
 
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Nothing. Leonard is a good reliable tradesman scrumhalf at NPC/S14 level, but that's all. He's not up to test standard.

After 2005, when Justin Marshall retired, and Byron Kelleher went north, Weepu, Ellis and Cowan became the All Blacks halfbacks until Piri, for some still unknown reason, fell out of favour with Ted. Leonard had made some good showings at the lower levels and was drafted into the All Blacks. and ended up in the 2007 RWC squad. This is where he was found out when he was asked to step up to Test Rugby. He didn't cut the mustard against the tougher opposition.

Leonard's selection instead of Weepu for the 2007 RWC was IMO, one of two major selection blunders made by Ted for, and during, that campaign (the other one being not picking Aaron Mauger over Luke McAlister in the quarter final - I firmly believe that if Weepu and Mauger had played in that match, we would likely have won it.)

That match probably would have been his last in the Black jersey had Ellis not been injured in the 2009 Super 14 (playing for six weeks with cracked ribs), so Leonard was brought in as cover. The four tests that he played in 2009 (plus the loss to the Barbarians) were his last outing in an Black jersey. Shoirt of another halfback injury disaster, I doubt we will see him again.

Great post.

I totally agree about Weepu's exclusion from the 2007 RWC. I've never liked Leonard... Also Aaron Mauger, I've always rated Mauger over McAlister, not only because I'm a Canterbury man, it's just that he was always more consistent, reliable and much better with his tactical kicking than McAlister.
 
Of course, you could always just turn avatars & signatures off in your settings
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I dont want to turn them all off, just stop the stupid large ones and the big animated gifs. Like I want to see a pick of Gaven henson take up half a screen every thread I go in to... Is that ok with you?
 
Weepu lost his place in the AB squad in 07 because of his constant fitness issues and he also broke team proticol maybe even more than once. IMO it likely degraded the atmosphere in the AB's he should have been setting an example but he was dicking around, he and Troy as well. maybe the coaches thought he wasn't taking it seriously enough. And IMO the loss in 07 had nothing to do with Leonard.
 
I'm actually wondering which role the media has played on the selection of SBW? He 's a good player and he proved his skills in the ITM. But still, isn't it too early for him to earn his cap?
 
I'm actually wondering which role the media has played on the selection of SBW? He 's a good player and he proved his skills in the ITM. But still, isn't it too early for him to earn his cap?

I think it's now or never, I mean what more can he do?

He's scoring trys, he's setting up even more trys, his defence is good, he sticks out on the field - attracts defenders and his team mates have learned to get in support because good things happen when he's around the ball, he's shown impressive speed and hell he even setup a try with a chip kick this weekend!

He's no stranger to the big stage with his Kiwi test and NRL finals experience.

If he didn't perform as well as he has maybe he wouldn't have been selected. But IMO his performances have justified his selection, and for me that's taken away any arguments there may have been over his selection.
 
Good on Sonny he's made a big sacrifice to make the ABs. Despite all his critics he's always had the backing of professional Rugby players and retired, top coaches and his family and fans.

Its all up to him now, I knew he'd make it. Absolutely gutted for Fruean though, he's been the top back in the ITM IMO.
 
Good on Sonny he's made a big sacrifice to make the ABs. Despite all his critics he's always had the backing of professional Rugby players and retired, top coaches and his family and fans.

Its all up to him now, I knew he'd make it. Absolutely gutted for Fruean though, he's been the top back in the ITM IMO.

Undoubtedly one of the top backs on attack, however his defense has been pretty poor. His one-on-one tackling is fine, he just doesn't seem to read defensive situations very well - I think his defense would be exploited at test level.
 
Undoubtedly one of the top backs on attack, however his defense has been pretty poor. His one-on-one tackling is fine, he just doesn't seem to read defensive situations very well - I think his defense would be exploited at test level.

Yeah true that. I have seen some instances like that and then Ive seen some straight missed tackles from him. His defence will get better mentally and technically from experience.

Good point raised as that can only be the reason he's not in the team.
 
Nothing. Leonard is a good reliable tradesman scrumhalf at NPC/S14 level, but that's all. He's not up to test standard.

After 2005, when Justin Marshall retired, and Byron Kelleher went north, Weepu, Ellis and Cowan became the All Blacks halfbacks until Piri, for some still unknown reason, fell out of favour with Ted. Leonard had made some good showings at the lower levels and was drafted into the All Blacks. and ended up in the 2007 RWC squad. This is where he was found out when he was asked to step up to Test Rugby. He didn't cut the mustard against the tougher opposition.

Leonard's selection instead of Weepu for the 2007 RWC was IMO, one of two major selection blunders made by Ted for, and during, that campaign (the other one being not picking Aaron Mauger over Luke McAlister in the quarter final - I firmly believe that if Weepu and Mauger had played in that match, we would likely have won it.)

That match probably would have been his last in the Black jersey had Ellis not been injured in the 2009 Super 14 (playing for six weeks with cracked ribs), so Leonard was brought in as cover. The four tests that he played in 2009 (plus the loss to the Barbarians) were his last outing in an Black jersey. Shoirt of another halfback injury disaster, I doubt we will see him again.

I think your way off on Leonard there off cooky

"good reliable tradesman scrumhalf" IMO Leonard when he is on his game is the dangerous attacking halfback in NZ and maybe the fastest 9 in NZ at clearing the ball from the ruck, and he has performed well for the AB's. But if anything his problem has been hs reliability.

He's had some major injury setbacks, main one being a Knee injury that was really bad, he had surgery on it and was in a "moon boot" type knee brace for a long period only to find when they removed it and did a scan they found the surgery had not been a success. So he had to have another operation and start the whole process from scratch. I can't imagine how hard that must have been. And since then it's only really now he has got most of his speed back.

Been really unlucky with injurys and timing of injurys. He's gone through Super and NPC campaigns in great form only to pick up an injury at the end within weeks of All Black selection really hurting his chances. Just like now.

The last chance he got for the AB's I could just sense that Leonard had a big game in him and I remember the comentary saying the same thing. And just as he started to make his mark in the game he took a kick to the head and got taken off.

one thing about his game that's been a bit up and down is the quality of his pass, even early in this years ITM cup his passing was pretty bad Renata was diving all over the palce to get his passes saved by the fact leonard got the ball out so fast renata had time to gather the pass even though they were mostly poor. Barlow was given the starting role (and barlow's passing is superb) and that must had put Leonard into action becuase since then up till the head clash his passing has been spot on.

His kicking game is back to it's best, his tackling is as good as ever, he and Cowan are both awesome defenders but leonards extra speed gives him and edge on cover defence.

For the most part injury has screwed up his Career so far but he still has potential

Also on Weepu, it was pretty clear why he was dropped in 2007. He had fitness issues and discipline issues, his weight was up and down and so was his form. And there was that public incident where he and try flavel were out all night on a bender the night before a test match. surely the coaches just lost confidence in him, he was a bit of a liability. It's surely no great mystery why he was left out.
 
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I'm actually wondering which role the media has played on the selection of SBW? He 's a good player and he proved his skills in the ITM. But still, isn't it too early for him to earn his cap?

I think his addition to the squad is aimed at getting him some time with international standard coaches, and the culture that comes with that, and see how much he improves going forward. I'd be suprised if he was involved in anything other than the midweek games unless he has a blinder in one of those games, allah Quade Cooper.
 
I think he'll get a start or two, Nonu or Smith on the bench. All the players in the squad should get a good run I think.
 
Leonard's been in awesome form. Better than anything I've seen from Elis or Cowan for some time that's for sure.

i disagree Ellis has been very reliable for Canterbury and he has very good delivery. Cowan hasn't played any ITM rugby this year his games have been at a higher level than Leonards ITM games so its hard to compare that form to Cowans. Cowan was always guaranteed anyway.

because of the world cup next year i guess it does make sense to pick SBW now coz there is no other time for the AB's to test him at this level coz next year it will probably be the final WC squad. Fruean still has time though, i was surprised with Sivivatu and Toeava being picked

i'm really happy for Daniel Braid too, he's been playing well in NZ for the last decade but was always left out, but finally he's back in the team :)
this tour should be do or die for Hosea Gear
 
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Congrats to the boys who made the squad! To me the three wise men have chosen the best players available. I feel that this squad will be the World Cup squad with a few exceptions.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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John Afoa, Ben Franks, Owen Franks and Tony Woodcock <o:p></o:p>
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Hikawera Elliot, Andrew Hore and Keven Mealamu<o:p></o:p>
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Jerome Kaino, Richie McCaw, Liam Messam, Kieran Read and Daniel Braid<o:p></o:p>
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Andy Ellis, Jimmy Cowan and Alby Mathewson,<o:p></o:p>
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Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu and Sonny Bill Williams.<o:p></o:p>
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Hosea Gear, Josevata Rokocoko and Sitiveni Sivivatu<o:p></o:p>
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Cory Jane and Mils Muliaina<o:p></o:p>
Utility<o:p></o:p>
Isaia Toeava<o:p></o:p>
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Exceptions: Props â€" I don’t think they need to make any changes (Notables Neemia Tialata) Hookers â€" Kevy and Andrew are givens, Hika can seal the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> spot on the eoyt. Lock â€" A place for Ali Williams will need to be made so I think that Tom will be the unlucky one. Flankers â€" Pretty happy with the flankers ( Notables Adam Thompson, Tanerau Latimer and Victor Vito. Halfback â€" Andy Ellis will make way for Piri Weepu. 1<SUP>st</SUP> 5 - I will have Luke MacAlister take Stephen Donalds place. All Luke has to do is say that he wants to be a 1<SUP>st</SUP> 5 and play 1<SUP>st</SUP> 5 for the Blues next year. Otherwise I don’t see any other place for him in the squad. Centres â€" Status quo ( Notables â€" Robbie Fruean and Richard Kahui ) Wings/ Fullback â€" I’m happy will the players chosen ( Notables â€" Israel Dagg and Rene Ranger) Utility â€" Ice is gold.<o:p></o:p>
 
i disagree Ellis has been very reliable for Canterbury and he has very good delivery. Cowan hasn't played any ITM rugby this year his games have been at a higher level than Leonards ITM games so its hard to compare that form to Cowans. Cowan was always guaranteed anyway.

because of the world cup next year i guess it does make sense to pick SBW now coz there is no other time for the AB's to test him at this level coz next year it will probably be the final WC squad. Fruean still has time though, i was surprised with Sivivatu and Toeava being picked

i'm really happy for Daniel Braid too, he's been playing well in NZ for the last decade but was always left out, but finally he's back in the team :)
this tour should be do or die for Hosea Gear
1. Ellis has one of the poorest deliveries out of every half back in New Zealand. He too often picks the ball up, and then looks for a passing option. I'd have imagined it's his leadership and consistancy that has got him in the squad over Leonard (who has been tested several times, and has always f*cked it up).

2. Why "do or die" for Gear? He's never been given a real oppertunity in a test match before, he's either come off the bench or been given no ball, in a game in which running rugby was punished. There is no reason why it should be do or die for Gear, as he's consistantly been in great form. You could say "do or die for Ellis" or "do or die for Rokocoko", because they've been given plenty of oppertunities to show that they belong in the AB's. Gear hasen't had the luxory.
 
Weepu lost his place in the AB squad in 07 because of his constant fitness issues and he also broke team proticol maybe even more than once. IMO it likely degraded the atmosphere in the AB's he should have been setting an example but he was dicking around, he and Troy as well. maybe the coaches thought he wasn't taking it seriously enough. And IMO the loss in 07 had nothing to do with Leonard.

If you believe what the media speculation was (and I don't), then I'm happy for you. There were others who didn't tow the behaviour line too, they didn't get dropped.

There was more to the Weepu situation than that.

The problem with Leonard is that he doesn't appear to have the ability to change the game when things aren't going right... he's a follower not a leader. YES, he clears quickly, but that isn't everything. I heard Justin Marshal at an after dinner speech tell a story about when he was a young half-back in Southland. He had a fast, long and accurate pass, but didn't do anything else; run wide or dart around the scrum, chip kick, etc, he just had this fantastic pass. His coach told him that if this was all he had, he would never be a really good half-back. Any mug can learn to clear quickly and fire long passes, but pretty soon, the opposition will work out that its all you've got, and they wont need to defend around the scrum because you are never going to run, so they will attack your 5/8 more to cut his options down. Develop a good running & kicking game as a half-back, and you keep your opponents guessing. JM took that to heart, and the result was a long career as one of the best half-backs ever to wear the Black jersey. Marshall developed additional attributes that also made him like a 4th loose forward.

What the quarter final needed was a leader at No. 9 who could see the French were always offside, and who realised the referee was blind to it and wasn't pinging them for it. In that second half, Leonard didn't once chip the referee and tell him the French backs were offside. I can just imagine what Weepu or Cowan would have done, picked up the ball and made sure they ran straight onto an offside froggie at the ruck while yelling "C'mon ref! He's offside".

I'm actually wondering which role the media has played on the selection of SBW? He 's a good player and he proved his skills in the ITM. But still, isn't it too early for him to earn his cap?

Richie McCaw earned his first All Black test cap (v Ireland in 2001) before his 21st birthday, before he ever played Super 12 rugby, and only a year after his provincial debut for Canterbury against North Harbour in 2000. In 2004 he captained the All Blacks for the first time, against Wales, at the age of 23, within two years of his test debut, and four years of his Provincial debut!! How often has that happened, I wonder??

Some players are just exceptional, and fast tracking them ahead of other more senior players is the best thing to do. I'm not saying this necessarily applies to SBW, just that there is no hard and fast rule about how long a player has to "wait" for the jersey.

I think his addition to the squad is aimed at getting him some time with international standard coaches, and the culture that comes with that, and see how much he improves going forward. I'd be suprised if he was involved in anything other than the midweek games unless he has a blinder in one of those games, allah Quade Cooper.

I'd be suprised if he was involved in midweek games, because there aren't any for the AB's.

I'm picking he'll be on the bench against Australia (replace Nonu in the second half), and he'll start against Scotland.

Ted and Co don't have many real opportunities to find out if he is the real deal between now and RWC2011, and we don't want to be trying him out in one of only four 3N matches next year.
 
I will have Luke MacAlister take Stephen Donalds place. All Luke has to do is say that he wants to be a 1<SUP>st</SUP> 5 and play 1<SUP>st</SUP> 5 for the Blues next year.


Luke's been playing a lot of ITM this year so far and has been going ok but he is no where near the line breaker he was. He does still run things in the Harbour backline rather smoothly and his kicking is still good so hes still has those 1st 5 qualities about him but Luke was a bit more than that a few years ago, he was a regular line breaker.

Dan and Stephen now and then break the line or come up with a play that brings the attacking abilities of their backline alive. Luke is not doing this often as he use too. Nowadays he does in some instances in some small way but before he sparked his backline in a big way.

Bottom line Stephen who has just come back to the ITM has been playing lke a standout in every game hes had. Luke who has played ITM since the start of the seasons only highlights are...
1. his 60m place kick
2. his short interview on sports news as the media assumed he would be the one to cover DC when Dan was uncertain about making the tour.
None of those highlights are of him doing something brilliant for North Harbour, those 2 highlights dont warrant an AB jersey to me.
 
1. Ellis has one of the poorest deliveries out of every half back in New Zealand. He too often picks the ball up, and then looks for a passing option. I'd have imagined it's his leadership and consistancy that has got him in the squad over Leonard (who has been tested several times, and has always f*cked it up).

2. Why "do or die" for Gear? He's never been given a real oppertunity in a test match before, he's either come off the bench or been given no ball, in a game in which running rugby was punished. There is no reason why it should be do or die for Gear, as he's consistantly been in great form. You could say "do or die for Ellis" or "do or die for Rokocoko", because they've been given plenty of oppertunities to show that they belong in the AB's. Gear hasen't had the luxory.

about ellis, well idk thats not what i was seeing but i'll have to watch more closley

about Gear, its do or die for him because the AB's don't need him that much, he's a good player but he has to prove to the selectors on this tour that he is better than Rokocoko, Sivivatu and Jane. He hardly got the ball in the tests he played because he doesn't have good positional play, Rokocoko and Sivivatu show how even when the ball is not going their way they get into good positions to still have an impact on the game and still create tries. There's a chance Sivivatu is still unfit though because he's only just come back from injury and hasn't played much rugby. But if Gear plays in these tests and still doesn't have an impact then i don't think he'll be in the team next year since they won't need him that much
 
Cookie what are you trying to say? All leonard can do is pass?

Even if what you say is true and I don't believe it is. The simple fact that he is so much faster clearing the ball than Elis & Cowan it means that the players outside him have so much more time & space. we have the best 10 in the world the main focus should really be giving him the quality ball and time he needs. The reality is that when the chips are down most of the time it's going to be the likes of carter, Nonu & Mils to turn it around and it will be much easier for them to do that with an extra half sec or more advantage every time they get the ball. And Leonard is a constant and critical threat as a ball runner, Cowan hasn't been for a long time - the best he's done lately is hit the ball up as well as most of your average loose forwards can pick and go.

Defence is important for halfbacks, usally when a 9 makes a tackle it's an important one. This is a strength of Cowans game, he is kinda like an extra loose forward in that area but leonard is just as good and I think his extra speed helps him make some cover tackles most halfbacks wouldn't.

My main worry is really speed of the ball though. In 2008 Elis was the #1 halfback at the start of the season and he kinda looked like he did an ok job. It was only when he got injured and Cowan & Weepu got their chance that the AB backline finaly found some space and make an impact and everyone realised how much Elis mite have been holding the backline back with his slow delivery.

And we have seen the same thing this year, Cowan has looked OK but when Weepu has come on the AB's backline fires all of a sudden. The ball comes out so much faster and gaps appear all over the place, the AB's run riot. It's been like night and day.

Honestly out of the 3 haldbacks in the squad Mathewson is the only one I would trust to get quality ball our backs need. And IMO Cowan in part is holding onto his AB sport from his from back in 2008 under different rules.

have to wait and see, maybe Cowan will come right - but I've been hoping that for a long time now and it hasn't happened. Also hope Mathewson comes on, for sure he's been very good at super level. And if he does he should keep Elis in check, I dont have a lot of faith in Elis but I'll be happy to be proved wrong.
 
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