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** All-time XV's Thread **

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wairarapa_cullen @ Mar 30 2009, 03:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Well here goes my attempt:

15. Christian Cullen
14. Jeff Wilson
13. Tana Umaga
12. Frank Bunce
11. Jonah Lomu
10. Dan Carter
9. Graeme Bachop

8. Buck Shelford (vc)
7. Richie McCaw
6. Michael Jones
5. Ian Jones
4. Chris Jack
3. Carl Hayman
2. Sean Fitzpatrick ©
1. Olo Brown

16. Keven Mealamu
17. Craig Dowd
18. Robin Brooke
19. Zinzan Brooke
20. Justin Marshall
21. Andrew Mehrtens
22. Joe Stanley[/b]

Tough on a player like Zinzan to have Buck Shelford in the same position, probably would get into most teams XV had he been any other nationality
 
Can't see how you can't consider Rupert Moon Welsh Gimley! He was born English, but considers himself Welsh through and through by now. He was as passinate as any player I've seen, and has stayed in Wales ever since his playing days. He's learnt a certain amount of Welsh (better than 50% of 'propper' Welsh folk) and has devoted himself to a welsh club , Llanelli.

I agree he wasn't the best of players, and there have been many better before and since.
 
Could you get a better back row than McCaw, Michael Jones and Buck Shelford. (English fans not welcome). :D
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Mar 30 2009, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
can't ever recall De Villiers playing at loosehead for the French, would certainly have Marconnet ahead of him, think he could play both sides.

As for Michalak, no no no no no no no no no, no. Galthié, Berbizier as well as several other scrum halves are streets ahead of the flaky Michalak.

No Jean Pierre Rives either, the man's an absolute legend of the game. I'd also make a case for Benetton as well, always thought he was quite a dynamic player. Always rated Roumat too, not sure about Castaigneide could possibly go with Camberabero.[/b]
galthie was your blood and bones type of scrum half remembered more for his leadership than his abilities, he played with a dominant pack that he directed, michelak is a magician. a creative player, a player who create space for himself and others.

unless you had noticed all the best "creative" players are acused of flakiness, it is due to our high expectations of them...

if you argue michelak why not argue dominici or blanco... they were "Flakey" too...!

Rives was a great open-side, Olivier Magne took JP Rives game on to another level, he was one of the first open-sides to be part of the modern wave of open-sides whos pure role is to maintain link play and follow follow follow in attack, whilst turnover in defense.

if we are discussing who is a great player maybe the role they took in advancing what a player in their position does and taking the game forward is what separates the GREATEST from those who just excelled....?

for example:

Gareth Edwards was a GREAT scrum half, what possibly makes him the GREATEST scrum half is how much he advanced the game with the way he developed his position at scrum-half as a more commanding role in a team...?

he developed the spin pass, the overhead kick, the corner flagging defense. the role of scrum half as an extra back rower in defense and as an extra winger in attack.



Magne developed the role of the open side flanker, JP Rives was excellent but didn't impact the game as much as a player like magne who changed the role of an open-side.



another point:

please don't repost this with figures about caps and figures about grandslams as you did regarding Graham Price...!

i respectfully would rather hear your opinions, as i can read how many tries and assists a player has just as easily as you, and as an experienced rugby afficionado that i presume you are, it demeans the way everyone perceives you when you provide statistics as opposed to opinion and debate...!
 
yeah Rives had little influence on the game, captaining his country however many times he did and winning the player of the year in France on more than a few occasions.
 
having been a member here for 5 years it's good to get a lesson in how to post, citing facts is never a good way to back up your point, cause we all know that if you play 12 times for the Lions that you must not be worthy of a place in a Welsh XV of the last 30 years. :rolleyes:
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cyRil of Ospreylia @ Mar 30 2009, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Could you get a better back row than McCaw, Michael Jones and Buck Shelford. (English fans not welcome). :D[/b]
Dagalleleo, sill and hack

won the world cup in 2002 for ing-er-lund with jamie williamson kicking the goals at flyback number 11....! was always a big fan of that chap CArling first black man to play for England...!

wot o got to take the labs to the field, forget how big hertfordshire is, even when your family bloody owns it....!!!





ha ha ha ha

(sorry couldn't resist)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Mar 30 2009, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
having been a member here for 5 years it's good to get a lesson in how to post, citing facts is never a good way to back up your point, cause we all know that if you play 12 times for the Lions that you must not be worthy of a place in a Welsh XV of the last 30 years. :rolleyes:[/b]
hmmm!

sorry you've been writing on here for five years, 12 caps, played for the lions, french player of the year... more statistics...

do you have an opinion ? did you ever watch rives play, or magne, or graham price for that matter ?

can you describe how they played, what made them better than Nyanga, or Benneton ???





get over yourself mate, five years is a long time without sex...!!!
 
well I'm sorry if you're going through a dry spell but this isn't the place for confessions.
 
Lol, think you need to look through the TRFies nominations Gimley. An Tarbh (don't shorten his name to An by the way!) has already had numerous nominations for best Rugby union poster, best NH poster and most knowlegable rugby union poster, he knows his stuff!

I can see you also have a very in depth knowlage of the game, but you should really stop insulting people, especailly the mods! This isn't 606.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Mar 30 2009, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Lol, think you need to look through the TRFies nominations Gimley. An Tarbh (don't shorten his name to An by the way!) has already had numerous nominations for best Rugby union poster, best NH poster and most knowlegable rugby union poster, he knows his stuff!

I can see you also have a very in depth knowlage of the game, but you should really stop insulting people, especailly the mods! This isn't 606.[/b]

all you guys go on about is statistics...!

it isn't interesting

lets here some rugby talk, about games you have seen players you feel passionate about and why...! make this an interesting read... not a statistical analysis table, i get those at work and they choke the life out of any fun in the job...!
 
I understand that Gimley, it's always great to back up statements with your personal reasoning, but it's sometimes better to use some statistics. For instance I could say why Shane Williams is imo one of the top Welsh wings ever in a couple of ways: I could say because he's fun to watch, has a great step, is a top bloke to boot, but it's easier and clearer by pointing out he's the top Welsh try scorer of all time, touching down 46 times in 56 matches (or whatever the stat is). Doesn't that explain it better?
 
Stop insulting people or you won't last long enough to take part in an interesting discussion...
 
Well lets start to hear a few more opinions than just cap and try statistics...!

as well all know stats prove very little in a game other than cricket... and i love cricket as much as anyone else but we are talking about rugby here and in rugby stats mean little



Here are a couple of brief examples to show you why stats can mean very little to rugby :

A player may not have a high tackle count but his positioning in the defensive line up may always look impenetrable to an attacking team.

Statistically with a low tackle count that player may look like the teams worst defender, but if you were in the stands watching what he does, you would know he is one of the best...!

or...

England came second twice in two years in the six nations, therefor they must have a better set up and technically better team to achieve such consistency in the six nations, compared to Wales who have come 1st and 4th, and ireland who have come third and first.


so less rubbish about boring statistics and you well get a lot less insults berating your posts from me !!!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GimleyUK @ Mar 30 2009, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Well lets start to hear a few more opinions than just cap and try statistics...!

as well all know stats prove very little in a game other than cricket... and i love cricket as much as anyone else but we are talking about rugby here and in rugby stats mean little



Here are a couple of brief examples to show you why stats can mean very little to rugby :

A player may not have a high tackle count but his positioning in the defensive line up may always look impenetrable to an attacking team.

Statistically with a low tackle count that player may look like the teams worst defender, but if you were in the stands watching what he does, you would know he is one of the best...!

or...

England came second twice in two years in the six nations, therefor they must have a better set up and technically better team to achieve such consistency in the six nations, compared to Wales who have come 1st and 4th, and ireland who have come third and first.


so less rubbish about boring statistics and you well get a lot less insults berating your posts from me !!![/b]

Urm ...

Stats are there and there is no need for you to get aggressive or provocative because you simply feel that your opinion is superior to anyone else.

People use stats to back things up and they are right to do so, most stats don't tell a lie but its how you interpret them is what matters.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Mar 31 2009, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
People use stats to back things up and they are right to do so, most stats don't tell a lie but its how you interpret them is what matters.[/b]

Really, i was always under the impression that stats were used when people can't be bothered to take the time to think about the correct and more interesting way to prove a point.

Using stats to prove an argument is like the difference between having Bill McClaren comentating on a match, and Stuart Barnes.

McClaren passionatly talks you through the game with a willie sense of story and history, and the man Barnes tells you Chris Paterson is Europes best Goal Kicker.

When as a rugby fan you know that Chris Paterson only takes kicks well within his range, other kickers take more kicks that they are less sure of and have a higher risk factor.

That may prove paterson is a more intelligent player to select only kicks he won't miss, but not that he is a more acurate or talented goal kicker...


I think the main reason Pubndits on this forum use statistics is because they are too scared by what other posties write about their opinions


I think if you have an opinion be proud of it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GimleyUK @ Mar 30 2009, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Well lets start to hear a few more opinions than just cap and try statistics...!

as well all know stats prove very little in a game other than cricket... and i love cricket as much as anyone else but we are talking about rugby here and in rugby stats mean little



Here are a couple of brief examples to show you why stats can mean very little to rugby :

A player may not have a high tackle count but his positioning in the defensive line up may always look impenetrable to an attacking team.

Statistically with a low tackle count that player may look like the teams worst defender, but if you were in the stands watching what he does, you would know he is one of the best...!

or...

England came second twice in two years in the six nations, therefor they must have a better set up and technically better team to achieve such consistency in the six nations, compared to Wales who have come 1st and 4th, and ireland who have come third and first.


so less rubbish about boring statistics and you well get a lot less insults berating your posts from me !!![/b]

Actually Ireland came 4th last year. This 6N was the same standings except Ireland and Wales swapped.

Just thouht I'd point that out :p.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Meh @ Mar 31 2009, 01:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GimleyUK @ Mar 30 2009, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well lets start to hear a few more opinions than just cap and try statistics...!

as well all know stats prove very little in a game other than cricket... and i love cricket as much as anyone else but we are talking about rugby here and in rugby stats mean little



Here are a couple of brief examples to show you why stats can mean very little to rugby :

A player may not have a high tackle count but his positioning in the defensive line up may always look impenetrable to an attacking team.

Statistically with a low tackle count that player may look like the teams worst defender, but if you were in the stands watching what he does, you would know he is one of the best...!

or...

England came second twice in two years in the six nations, therefor they must have a better set up and technically better team to achieve such consistency in the six nations, compared to Wales who have come 1st and 4th, and ireland who have come third and first.


so less rubbish about boring statistics and you well get a lot less insults berating your posts from me !!![/b]

Actually Ireland came 4th last year. This 6N was the same standings except Ireland and Wales swapped.

Just thouht I'd point that out :p.
[/b][/quote]

Sorry, I forgot.
 

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