Argentina's Proposed Inclusion to the Tri Nations for 2012

[An Tarbh]

it's not as if they go out of their way to accommodate the existing teams over kick-offs, wasn't it something like 3am when New Zealand were playing in SA?

 

[smartcooky]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DonBilly @ Sep 15 2009, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Sep 15 2009, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have an Argentinean living with me at the moment, and from what I've heard they don't start drinking until around midnight. I don't think the time difference will be an issue at all for those watching. Won't the matches in Argentina be starting rather late anyway?[/b]

Usually Rugby is played in the afternoon in Argentina, I don't remember having watched any night games in Argentina. At what time of the day was played the test match versus NZ which was held some years ago?
[/b][/quote]

New Zealand vs Argentina at River Plate Stadium
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Saturday, 1 December 2001
Kick-off 8:30pm local
Crowd 71,667

New Zealand vs Argentina at Velez Sarsfield Stadium
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Saturday, 24 June 2006
Kick-off 8:40pm local
Crowd 37,124

 

[smartcooky]

NOTE: Those times convert to:

11:30 & 11:40am Sunday in New Zealand
09:30 and 09:40am Sunday in Sydney

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DonBilly @ Sep 15 2009, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Sep 15 2009, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have an Argentinean living with me at the moment, and from what I've heard they don't start drinking until around midnight. I don't think the time difference will be an issue at all for those watching. Won't the matches in Argentina be starting rather late anyway?[/b]

Usually Rugby is played in the afternoon in Argentina, I don't remember having watched any night games in Argentina. At what time of the day was played the test match versus NZ which was held some years ago?
[/b][/quote]

It was aaaages ago the last time New Zealand toured Argentina.

To be brutally honest, everyone apart from England, Italy & Scotland seems petrified about the thought of taking on Argentina in Argentina!!!

EDIT: New questions for the class: How many Australians will wet themselves in fright during their first ever game in Salta or Buenos Aires? :lol:

 

[Jer1cho]

Sooooo, on the travel issue, if the Springboks head to Aus, then NZ, then Arg, then back here to SA, wouldn't they have basically flown around the world? There are gonna be some MASSIVE travel issues...

 

[shazbooger]

We have to go to ............. eh Wales and sometimes Italy!

Quit whingin!

 

[Prestwick]

Its not that bad these days. Lets face it, South Africa travel to Namibia by coach and PdV cites "jet lag, ja?" in case they only win by 200.

 

[Jer1cho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Sep 15 2009, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Its not that bad these days. Lets face it, South Africa travel to Namibia by coach and PdV cites "jet lag, ja?" in case they only win by 200.[/b]

:lol:

 

[echy8]

I don´t know how to express my happiness!!

four nations on 2012 is indiscriptible.
more than that the pumas will be playing 13 matches per year!! (June 3, Four nations !, and November 4 matches more)!!

 

[Melhor Time]

:bravo:

I will need to budget well now so I can go to Argentina once a year to watch one of these matches. Argentina will treat the Tri Nations home games just like Australia, New Zealand and South Africa do, i.e. they will not play all games in one city they will use stadiums across the country. The tv revenue they will get is going to be significantly higher than anything they have previously got and so their revenues are set to boom. The possibilities are enormous for rugby in the country with this announcement. This announcement will do more wonders for the sport in the country than most people realize. In addition to giving the national side an annual tournament it will also develop the sport significantly across the country. The issue of Buenos Aires vs the ´hinterland´will be put to rest as Argentina host Australia in Cordoba and New Zealand in Rosario. Buenos Aires, as Jethro and Smartcooky has said, will be used and the 70,000 venue will be full too. When we factor in tv profits and think of the domestic game it is really a great scenario. The spin off for the game in South America is incredible because right now the Tri Nations is not broadcast at all in Brazil, a country in which rugby is growing very steadilly for both mens and womens rugby.

It seems clear that Argentina´s domestic players have been well aware of what has been happening. Players who have left in 2009 for European clubs have not signed lenghly contracts. The deals have been 1-2 years mostly. In fact the only player, that I know of, who has signed to stay beyond the 2011 Rugby World Cup in Europe is Felipe Contepomi. He is, of course, going to be 34 during RWC 2011 and so is unlikely to continue playing despite signing a four year deal that started in July this year.

What is going to happen, directly or indirectly, is a draft. Different Super Rugby franchises need different players. As everybody know Juan Martin Hernandez plays for the Natal Sharks now after ending his contract with SF Paris early. What has not been commented on, from what I have seen, is that Western Province (Stormers) and Auckland (Blues) were trying very hard to sign him too. Were they all aware of SANZAR´s announcement made yesterday? Maybe they knew well in advance. Similalry, Hernandez sho is very, very good friends with Agustin Pichot could have had a ´heads up´ about this too.

The players who will be on the hot list are, obviously, Argentina´s best players. From the 2009 test players all should be accessible. I think that, in addition to Contepomi, the Pumas front row of Roncero, Ledesma and Scelzo will all retire following the World Cup as they are past their youth. The remaining players, effectively have 3 years to end their European contracts and be avaliable for the Pumas. Interestlingly, 2 of Argentina´s first choice XV are already Argentina based: backrower Genaro Fessia, scrumhalf Agustin Figuerola. Santiago Fernandez (flyhalf / centre) stared in the win vs England and os another Arg based player. These three should be signed as soon as proceedings begin. These three all replaced European professionals who were poor in the first game vs England (Galindo, Vergallo and Avramovic). Lucas González Amorosino signed for Leicester for one season, despite being immensely talented. He also stared in the win vs England. This is a good example of how successful the PladAR system is being for the top domestic based players.

The elite professionals based in Europe who should be targeted are: Albacete (second row, Toulouse), Leguizamon (backrow, SF Paris), Fernandez Lobbe (backrow Toulon), Tiesi (centre, Harlequins), Ayerza (prop, Leicester), Agulla (fullback/wing, Brive), Marcelo Bosch (flyhalf / centre, Biarritz), Vernet Basulado (hooker, Toulouse), Camacho (wing, Harlequins), Figallo (prop, Montpellier), Pedro Ledesma (prop, SF Paris) and Carizza (second row, Biarritz). They are the core of what will be the Pumas team after the World Cup, i.e. for the 2012 Quad / Four Nations. Fessia, Figuerola, Lalanne and Fernandez should also be added. The first six on this list should be highest priority. They are leading players in France / England and key for los Pumas. The first five players are all the best players in their positions in France / England. Yes, that means nobody is better than they are in the GP / Top 14.

Three years for it to happen, thats plenty of time. Albacete is 27 but has been playing in France since 2003. Like Hernandez, he would appreciate a change. He has won the Top 14 championship. To repeat, Contepomi is the only player I know contracted to a European club in 2012. The remainder have contracts that expire before this time and therefore should be able to sign for Super Rugby teams for 2012 in a straight forward manner. The chance of playing Quad / Four Nations rugby is already gettign the players excited. They will do what they need to to get out of European contracts. Some have already said precisely this. Albacete, Fessia, Fernandez and Contepomi have said words to this effect on scrum.com (Spanish version).

 

[smartcooky]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Sep 16 2009, 01:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Sooooo, on the travel issue, if the Springboks head to Aus, then NZ, then Arg, then back here to SA, wouldn't they have basically flown around the world? There are gonna be some MASSIVE travel issues... [/b]

Its not as bad as it seems

Johannesburg > Sydney > Auckland > Buenos Aires > Johannesburg --- you have flown completely around the world.

Johannesburg > Sydney > Auckland > Johannesburg --- you have flown halfway around the world to get to Auckland and flown halfway around the world to get back.

Same difference, and in fact I would argue that making the complete circle is a lot easier on the body

 

[hawkeyecf]

I'm not too fussed on team jet lag and costs and all, it's that the Tri-Nations 'Super Teams of the Southern Hemisphere' is slowly turning into just 'the teams for the southern Hemisphere'. Same thing with the Super 14, which is just getting bigger and bigger and less super. :-/

 

[smartcooky]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawk Eye @ Sep 16 2009, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'm not too fussed on team jet lag and costs and all, it's that the Tri-Nations 'Super Teams of the Southern Hemisphere' is slowly turning into just 'the teams for the southern Hemisphere'. Same thing with the Super 14, which is just getting bigger and bigger and less super. :-/[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

IRB World Rankings After RWC2007

1. South Africa
2. New Zealand
3. Argentina
4. England
5. Australia[/b]

You don't think Argentina deserve to be there?

By your logic we should have dropped Australia from the tri-nations and included Argentina.

 

[hawkeyecf]

Hmm, only thought of that after I posted. xP

Something else that's annoying, the Tri-nations will now be played over 12 weeks, and the Super 14/15 will now be longer as well. We're still playing international tests, so this means less time off, and less time for National players to play for their team in the Currie Cup.

Lets still drop Aus anyway, would make it a bit easier for us then. :lol:

 

[smartcooky]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawk Eye @ Sep 16 2009, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Something else that's annoying, the Tri-nations will now be played over 12 weeks, and the Super 14/15 will now be longer as well. We're still playing international tests, so this means less time off, and less time for National players to play for their team in the Currie Cup. [/b]

12 matches not 12 weeks

The first Four Nations will run from about August 18th to October 20th, 2012 - that is 9 weeks.

The current tri nations runs from July 18 to September 19 - that is....err.....9 weeks!!

 

[uli85]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jawmalawm24 @ Sep 15 2009, 12:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

This is great news and I don't want to be negative or anything but this is all based on whether Argentina can get their top players to play in the competition but if not than there'll be no inclusion. Other than that it'll make the competition a hell of alot better than it is at the moment.

Congratulations Argentina I hope it all goes through and good luck.

Also uli85 that Four Nations shield you've just mocked up there rocks and make sure Sanzar don't see it or else they might try steal your idea.[/b]

Surely they will make a more modern logo :lol:

Speaking about time issues... Here in Argentina we get used to watch Tri Nations 2009 matches at 6 or 7 a.m. If we woke up to watch the Springboks, All Blacks and Wallabies there shouldn't be a problem to do it to watch the Pumas! And any big sports event at 10 or 11 p.m. on a Sunday it sounds like normal here.

 

[erwanseb]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawk Eye @ Sep 16 2009, 03:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Hmm, only thought of that after I posted. xP

Something else that's annoying, the Tri-nations will now be played over 12 weeks, and the Super 14/15 will now be longer as well. We're still playing international tests, so this means less time off, and less time for National players to play for their team in the Currie Cup.

Lets still drop Aus anyway, would make it a bit easier for us then. :lol:[/b]

In four teams format, you can play two games per week end although long trip make it difficult. The minimum would be 6 weeks but more likely you will have one free week end out of 2/3 to accomodate some rest due to travel.

SA should be more advantaged with the travel now, having a central position between NZ/OZ and Argentina.
But other combinations are possible

Ideally, it would look like that.

Week 1
SA-ARGENTINA
NZ-OZ
Week 2
REST
Week 3
SA-NZ
ARGENTINA-OZ
Week 4
SA-OZ
ARGENTINA-NZ
Week 5
REST
Week 6
ARGENTINA-SA
NZ-OZ
Week 7
Rest
Week 8
NZ-SA
OZ-ARGENTINA
Week 9
NZ-ARGENTINA
OZ-SA

 

[QLD]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Sep 16 2009, 03:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

:bravo:

I will need to budget well now so I can go to Argentina once a year to watch one of these matches. Argentina will treat the Tri Nations home games just like Australia, New Zealand and South Africa do, i.e. they will not play all games in one city they will use stadiums across the country. The tv revenue they will get is going to be significantly higher than anything they have previously got and so their revenues are set to boom. The possibilities are enormous for rugby in the country with this announcement. This announcement will do more wonders for the sport in the country than most people realize. In addition to giving the national side an annual tournament it will also develop the sport significantly across the country. The issue of Buenos Aires vs the ´hinterland´will be put to rest as Argentina host Australia in Cordoba and New Zealand in Rosario. Buenos Aires, as Jethro and Smartcooky has said, will be used and the 70,000 venue will be full too. When we factor in tv profits and think of the domestic game it is really a great scenario. The spin off for the game in South America is incredible because right now the Tri Nations is not broadcast at all in Brazil, a country in which rugby is growing very steadilly for both mens and womens rugby.

It seems clear that Argentina´s domestic players have been well aware of what has been happening. Players who have left in 2009 for European clubs have not signed lenghly contracts. The deals have been 1-2 years mostly. In fact the only player, that I know of, who has signed to stay beyond the 2011 Rugby World Cup in Europe is Felipe Contepomi. He is, of course, going to be 34 during RWC 2011 and so is unlikely to continue playing despite signing a four year deal that started in July this year.

What is going to happen, directly or indirectly, is a draft. Different Super Rugby franchises need different players. As everybody know Juan Martin Hernandez plays for the Natal Sharks now after ending his contract with SF Paris early. What has not been commented on, from what I have seen, is that Western Province (Stormers) and Auckland (Blues) were trying very hard to sign him too. Were they all aware of SANZAR´s announcement made yesterday? Maybe they knew well in advance. Similalry, Hernandez sho is very, very good friends with Agustin Pichot could have had a ´heads up´ about this too.

The players who will be on the hot list are, obviously, Argentina´s best players. From the 2009 test players all should be accessible. I think that, in addition to Contepomi, the Pumas front row of Roncero, Ledesma and Scelzo will all retire following the World Cup as they are past their youth. The remaining players, effectively have 3 years to end their European contracts and be avaliable for the Pumas. Interestlingly, 2 of Argentina´s first choice XV are already Argentina based: backrower Genaro Fessia, scrumhalf Agustin Figuerola. Santiago Fernandez (flyhalf / centre) stared in the win vs England and os another Arg based player. These three should be signed as soon as proceedings begin. These three all replaced European professionals who were poor in the first game vs England (Galindo, Vergallo and Avramovic). Lucas González Amorosino signed for Leicester for one season, despite being immensely talented. He also stared in the win vs England. This is a good example of how successful the PladAR system is being for the top domestic based players.

The elite professionals based in Europe who should be targeted are: Albacete (second row, Toulouse), Leguizamon (backrow, SF Paris), Fernandez Lobbe (backrow Toulon), Tiesi (centre, Harlequins), Ayerza (prop, Leicester), Agulla (fullback/wing, Brive), Marcelo Bosch (flyhalf / centre, Biarritz), Vernet Basulado (hooker, Toulouse), Camacho (wing, Harlequins), Figallo (prop, Montpellier), Pedro Ledesma (prop, SF Paris) and Carizza (second row, Biarritz). They are the core of what will be the Pumas team after the World Cup, i.e. for the 2012 Quad / Four Nations. Fessia, Figuerola, Lalanne and Fernandez should also be added. The first six on this list should be highest priority. They are leading players in France / England and key for los Pumas. The first five players are all the best players in their positions in France / England. Yes, that means nobody is better than they are in the GP / Top 14.

Three years for it to happen, thats plenty of time. Albacete is 27 but has been playing in France since 2003. Like Hernandez, he would appreciate a change. He has won the Top 14 championship. To repeat, Contepomi is the only player I know contracted to a European club in 2012. The remainder have contracts that expire before this time and therefore should be able to sign for Super Rugby teams for 2012 in a straight forward manner. The chance of playing Quad / Four Nations rugby is already gettign the players excited. They will do what they need to to get out of European contracts. Some have already said precisely this. Albacete, Fessia, Fernandez and Contepomi have said words to this effect on scrum.com (Spanish version).[/b]

You make some quality posts and that is another one. Your knowledge of rugby is outstanding and just what we need around here.

I'm very excited about this. Maybe Australian teams can finally import some decent front rowers just like Patricio Noriega and Topo Rodriguez.

Does anyone know how rugby started in Argentina? Obviously in countries like Australia and NZ British expats would have brought the game over.

 

[Tomsey]

This is a SWEET idea. The only problem I can see is that it would only work if most of the Argentinean based players moved to Super 15 teams. This would mean they would have to take a fair salary cut so I’m not sure they would be very keen. I hope they are though. Juan Martín Hernández running round in a Waratah’s jersey would make me very

 

[Jer1cho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tomsey @ Sep 16 2009, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Juan Martín Hernández running round in a Waratah’s jersey would make me very [/b]

Nah, he has better standards than that.