Argentina's Proposed Inclusion to the Tri Nations for 2012

[danger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Sep 16 2009, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DonBilly @ Sep 15 2009, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Sep 15 2009, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have an Argentinean living with me at the moment, and from what I've heard they don't start drinking until around midnight. I don't think the time difference will be an issue at all for those watching. Won't the matches in Argentina be starting rather late anyway?[/b]

Usually Rugby is played in the afternoon in Argentina, I don't remember having watched any night games in Argentina. At what time of the day was played the test match versus NZ which was held some years ago?
[/b][/quote]

It was aaaages ago the last time New Zealand toured Argentina.

To be brutally honest, everyone apart from England, Italy & Scotland seems petrified about the thought of taking on Argentina in Argentina!!!

EDIT: New questions for the class: How many Australians will wet themselves in fright during their first ever game in Salta or Buenos Aires? :lol:
[/b][/quote]

If by aaaages you mean 3 years.. they played them in Buenos Aires in 2006. A night game to answer the original question.
and another night game in 2001 at Estadio Monumental Antonio V Liberti.

Also, its not a case of sides being petrified of argentina at home. If anything i think we hugely inderestimate our south american friends. Hell in 2006 the All Blacks schelduled a home match against Ireland and an away match in Argentina days later. They literally split into two seperate sides (which i thought was disrespectfull to everyone), The likes of McCaw, Muliaina and Mauger were left to deal to the Irish and Dan Carter, Jerry Collins, Ali Williams and co played in Argentina.

The real problem with touring Argentina is that its not worth going all the way over there if its not to play the top side, and the NH clubs never seem to make the top argentine players available when the all blacks are assembled. Its alright for England and Italy to play them, because their players are involved in the same club competitions.

I think you will see NH sides play in Arg alot less following the big shift to the super 14.

 

[erwanseb]

France has played Argentina 42 times, 28 times at home and 14 away, more than any other teams with a first test in 1949.

England has played Argentina 14 times and the ABs only 13.

Problem when touring Argentina is that there's no other rugby tier 1 nations around , so that you tour is limited to Argentina alone.

 

[danger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codorniou @ Sep 17 2009, 12:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

France has played Argentina 42 times, 28 times at home and 14 away, more than any other teams with a first test in 1949.

England has played Argentina 14 times and the ABs only 13.

Problem when touring Argentina is that there's no other rugby tier 1 nations around , so that you tour is limited to Argentina alone.[/b]

It makes sense. Most of the top Argie players are in France. And the top 14 are the biggest culprits when it comes to not releasing players for the SH international window. the tri nations sides have their teams ready at one stage of the season, the Argys and French at another. It only makes sense for them to play each other.

The big problem has been player release. The all blacks have no problem going to africa to play one team on the continent, they wouldnt mind doing the same in south america. Its just not worth it to play the Jr Pumas however.

 

[Wally]

Who thinks there should be an u/21 Tri Nations that plays the game preceding the main event? Similar to the Toyota Cup in the NRL. The extra revenue made from television rights would surely cover the costs of such an operation, and would help develop tomorrow's players. This may be received better in Australia and Argentina than in South Africa and New Zealand where they cherish their domestic leagues more.

 

[Nickdnz]

There is a Junior World Cup played every year anyway, so an Under 21 Tri Nations would be kind of wasted.

 

[danger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wally @ Sep 17 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Who thinks there should be an u/21 Tri Nations that plays the game preceding the main event? Similar to the Toyota Cup in the NRL. The extra revenue made from television rights would surely cover the costs of such an operation, and would help develop tomorrow's players. This may be received better in Australia and Argentina than in South Africa and New Zealand where they cherish their domestic leagues more.[/b]

It would be great for Australia, but the Saffer and NZ boys would be far better served learning their trade in the Currie cup and ANZC cup respectively.

 

[DonBilly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codorniou @ Sep 16 2009, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

France has played Argentina 42 times, 28 times at home and 14 away, more than any other teams with a first test in 1949.

England has played Argentina 14 times and the ABs only 13.

Problem when touring Argentina is that there's no other rugby tier 1 nations around , so that you tour is limited to Argentina alone.[/b]

South Africa is not that far away.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DonBilly @ Sep 17 2009, 07:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codorniou @ Sep 16 2009, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

France has played Argentina 42 times, 28 times at home and 14 away, more than any other teams with a first test in 1949.

England has played Argentina 14 times and the ABs only 13.

Problem when touring Argentina is that there's no other rugby tier 1 nations around , so that you tour is limited to Argentina alone.[/b]

South Africa is not that far away.
[/b][/quote]

Too far for a simple one off game.

Simple fact is that they are isolated and the only way they were to get regular top class games was to join a comp. We all know that. Which they will soon do. Problem solved.

It's really not a surprise that France has played the Pumas the most especially with how the French league is setup. Thankfully the French kept it a win-win situation for the Argentine rugby by giving them International games.

I can't wait! 2012 is too far away! Everybody I've spoken to is very keen on the induction. It's a pity that the Currie Cup is taking a back seat with this inclusion but it has been doing so ever since the Super Rugby tournament was setup.

 

[DonBilly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Sep 17 2009, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DonBilly @ Sep 17 2009, 07:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codorniou @ Sep 16 2009, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

France has played Argentina 42 times, 28 times at home and 14 away, more than any other teams with a first test in 1949.

England has played Argentina 14 times and the ABs only 13.

Problem when touring Argentina is that there's no other rugby tier 1 nations around , so that you tour is limited to Argentina alone.[/b]

South Africa is not that far away.
[/b][/quote]

Too far for a simple one off game.

Simple fact is that they are isolated and the only way they were to get regular top class games was to join a comp. We all know that. Which they will soon do. Problem solved.

It's really not a surprise that France has played the Pumas the most especially with how the French league is setup. Thankfully the French kept it a win-win situation for the Argentine rugby by giving them International games.

I can't wait! 2012 is too far away! Everybody I've spoken to is very keen on the induction. It's a pity that the Currie Cup is taking a back seat with this inclusion but it has been doing so ever since the Super Rugby tournament was setup.
[/b][/quote]

The high number of Argies in the French championship is relatively recent, 5 to 7 years. Most of the French tour in Argentina were before that time. These last five years I don't think France toured more in Argentina than in SA, NZ or Australia.

Next summer France will play SA one or two times and Argentina once.

 

[Jethro]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawk Eye @ Sep 16 2009, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'm not too fussed on team jet lag and costs and all, it's that the Tri-Nations 'Super Teams of the Southern Hemisphere' is slowly turning into just 'the teams for the southern Hemisphere'. Same thing with the Super 14, which is just getting bigger and bigger and less super. :-/[/b]

Dude Los Pumas aren't going to be easy in Argentina, River Plate for example is not a stadium to take lightly.

Would agree on Super 14 expansion, that's turning into a complete shambles. Personally I think it should return to S12 but who you going to drop.

 

[Melhor Time]

In terms of Argentina being able to guarantee that their best players and thus meet the criteria its virtually already a finalized deal. The Pumas training camp in Paris made up of 2 Italian based Pumas and 20 French based Pumas were crying for joy at the announcement on Monday. The highest paid Pumas in Europe, Albacete for one, are all so proud of their former captain getting Argentina invited into the Tri Nations. They will not be extending their deals to stay in Europe. They will follow the departure of Juan Martin Hernandez who was getting over half a million Euro per season from Stade Francais and was easily the highest paid player.

Or in the words of Pichot:

"Juan Martín Hernández, uno de los mejores jugadores del mundo, va a jugar el Super 14. Creo que cuando se terminen de abrir esas puertas los jugadores estarán contentos de poder unirse a un torneo que está considerado como uno de los mejores del planeta".

Source: www.rugbytime.com

 

[DonBilly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Sep 18 2009, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

In terms of Argentina being able to guarantee that their best players and thus meet the criteria its virtually already a finalized deal. The Pumas training camp in Paris made up of 2 Italian based Pumas and 20 French based Pumas were crying for joy at the announcement on Monday. The highest paid Pumas in Europe, Albacete for one, are all so proud of their former captain getting Argentina invited into the Tri Nations. They will not be extending their deals to stay in Europe. They will follow the departure of Juan Martin Hernandez who was getting over half a million Euro per season from Stade Francais and was easily the highest paid player.

Or in the words of Pichot:

"Juan Martín Hernández, uno de los mejores jugadores del mundo, va a jugar el Super 14. Creo que cuando se terminen de abrir esas puertas los jugadores estarán contentos de poder unirse a un torneo que está considerado como uno de los mejores del planeta".

Source: www.rugbytime.com[/b]

Is Juan Martín going to play Super14 next season? I know he's currently playing the Currie Cup, but don't know about Super14.

 

[Melhor Time]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DonBilly @ Sep 18 2009, 06:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Is Juan Martín going to play Super14 next season? I know he's currently playing the Currie Cup, but don't know about Super14.[/b]

Yes, it is a 12 month contract. Surely to be extended. If you haven't seen it here are highlights from last weekends match in which he scored 24 points of his teams 29. The idiot South African commentator calls him 'Strauss' as he scores a try. A perfect example of the lack of exposure Argentina recieve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwy5Zc7e8CI

I doubt he'll return to France given developments this week.

 

[smartcooky]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jethro @ Sep 18 2009, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawk Eye @ Sep 16 2009, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not too fussed on team jet lag and costs and all, it's that the Tri-Nations 'Super Teams of the Southern Hemisphere' is slowly turning into just 'the teams for the southern Hemisphere'. Same thing with the Super 14, which is just getting bigger and bigger and less super. :-/[/b]

Dude Los Pumas aren't going to be easy in Argentina, River Plate for example is not a stadium to take lightly.

Would agree on Super 14 expansion, that's turning into a complete shambles. Personally I think it should return to S12 but who you going to drop.

[/b][/quote]

I agree 100%. The last two times the All Blacks played Argentina in Argentina, we won, but they were both very close, and we really were lucky to win.

The match in 2001 was played in front of over 70,000 punters, and it was only a converted try to Scott Robertson in the final few minutes that allowed the All Blacks a lucky 24-20 escape from Buenos Aires to keep their unbeaten record against Argentina intact. The home team had dominated the All Blacks in all facets of play for 75 minutes, but two errors, a missed penalty from right in front, and a missed touch by the normally reliable Argentine fly half Felipe Contepomi cost them dearly in the last minutes of the game.

The 2006 match finished 25-19 to the All Blacks but is was another really tough encounter, and the All Blacks were hard on defence for the last 10 minutes when the Argies threw everything at them.

They have forged a 60% winning record at home, most often playing with sides that have been crippled by having players not released from their European Clubs. Make no mistake, they will be very, very tough to beat at home when they can put their best team on the park every weekend..

 

[Juan VdS]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dale @ Sep 16 2009, 03:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Does anyone know how rugby started in Argentina? Obviously in countries like Australia and NZ British expats would have brought the game over.[/b]

Well, unlike many other South American countries, Argentina's population comprises a VAST majority of European immigrants. Many British immigrants (mainly Welshmen) started to play and teach Rugby in Buenos Aires around 1875. In 1899, a couple teams from Buenos Aires merged up to face a side managed by Oxford University - which was supposedly made of English players, although there were a few Scots as well. This match started a trend, and in the following years the British would tour Argentina several times - in 1927 the British & Irish Lions paid us a visit to partake in a 9-games series, in which they outclassed our national team.

However, the real "mentor" of Argentine Rugby was a South African, Izak van Heerden. He moved to Argentina to train Los Pumas, and led them to a win over the Junior Springboks in 1965 (11-6). Izak van Heerden brought on with him the concept of sheer physicality that has always been championed by the South Africans -- hence why Los Pumas share, to some degree, this characteristic with the Boks (add to that our genetics and our diet - Argentina is the Mecca for meat eaters).

That is how Argentinian Rugby was born.

On another subject, and on to the topic per se, I am chuffed to bits regarding Argentina's inclusion to the 3N. This is what we had been waiting for so many years...

There are of course some details that need to be sorted out, but as Melhor Time already pointed out, everybody seems eager to make it happen. The boost this gives to Rugby in Argentina is almost beyond comprehension. It is no longer the "elite sport" it used to be years ago. Today, we see our regional clubs battling it out in Córdoba's largest stadium (with a full house); TV shows depicting the relevance and the impact the soon to be 4N would have in Argentina; more kids signing in their local clubs to start playing Rugby... it's just perfect.

I just hope the UAR will embrace this project with the proper commitment it deserves. The time has come to step a little further -- and what could possibly be better than playing ZA, NZ and AUS on a regular basis?

2012... I CAN'T WAIT!

 

[Prestwick]

Yeah the game was brought over to Argentina through a mixture of Welsh immigration and Royal Navy & British Army teams who toured South America on their travels during the 19th century. Thats how the game originally became implanted in many countries across the world.

The game originally came to Japan when the country copied its University and Navy systems along British lines and brought over Rugby as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Sep 18 2009, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jethro @ Sep 18 2009, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawk Eye @ Sep 16 2009, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not too fussed on team jet lag and costs and all, it's that the Tri-Nations 'Super Teams of the Southern Hemisphere' is slowly turning into just 'the teams for the southern Hemisphere'. Same thing with the Super 14, which is just getting bigger and bigger and less super. :-/[/b]

Dude Los Pumas aren't going to be easy in Argentina, River Plate for example is not a stadium to take lightly.

Would agree on Super 14 expansion, that's turning into a complete shambles. Personally I think it should return to S12 but who you going to drop.

[/b][/quote]

I agree 100%. The last two times the All Blacks played Argentina in Argentina, we won, but they were both very close, and we really were lucky to win.

The match in 2001 was played in front of over 70,000 punters, and it was only a converted try to Scott Robertson in the final few minutes that allowed the All Blacks a lucky 24-20 escape from Buenos Aires to keep their unbeaten record against Argentina intact. The home team had dominated the All Blacks in all facets of play for 75 minutes, but two errors, a missed penalty from right in front, and a missed touch by the normally reliable Argentine fly half Felipe Contepomi cost them dearly in the last minutes of the game.

The 2006 match finished 25-19 to the All Blacks but is was another really tough encounter, and the All Blacks were hard on defence for the last 10 minutes when the Argies threw everything at them.

They have forged a 60% winning record at home, most often playing with sides that have been crippled by having players not released from their European Clubs. Make no mistake, they will be very, very tough to beat at home when they can put their best team on the park every weekend..
[/b][/quote]

Yeah, I was going to say, Argentina is one of the hardest places to win in and even like when their team is crippled by players not being released, its still a job and a half to beat them.

Like PC above said, New Zealand have had to fight tooth and nail just to win over there and England have had some major scares culminating in losing down there earlier this year.

They pack out the stadiums game after game and they'll chase you for the entire 80 minutes until you're dead and they're in the lead. Their scrum is one of the most formidable in the world, their backs are some of the best out there. What more do you guys want?! Hernandez shooting laser beams out of his eyes?!?!

 

[DonBilly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Sep 18 2009, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

They have forged a 60% winning record at home, most often playing with sides that have been crippled by having players not released from their European Clubs. Make no mistake, they will be very, very tough to beat at home when they can put their best team on the park every weekend..[/b]

Well European clubs release their players during the International windows defined by the IRB, did Argentina played so often outside of these windows?

 

[Prestwick]

No, the summer tests are their home tests and fall during THE BLOODY FRENCH CLUB SEASON WHICH YOU GUYS REFUSE TO CHANGE!!!"!73846127823tytheqljhgeaiogBAYb8y6vAjbsdmba

 

[feicarsinn]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

What more do you guys want?! Hernandez shooting laser beams out of his eyes?!?![/b]

Yes. I want that.

 

[smartcooky]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DonBilly @ Sep 21 2009, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Sep 18 2009, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They have forged a 60% winning record at home, most often playing with sides that have been crippled by having players not released from their European Clubs. Make no mistake, they will be very, very tough to beat at home when they can put their best team on the park every weekend..[/b]

Well European clubs release their players during the International windows defined by the IRB, did Argentina played so often outside of these windows?
[/b][/quote]

All other club competitions in Europe are done and dusted by the end of May. then the iRB Southern Tour Test Window runs during June into the first week of July.

However, in their arrogance, the organisers of the Top 14 do exactly what they please, not giving a fat rats arse about anyone else, and running their Top 14 into June and sometimes near the end of June!

2005/06 Final 10 June 2006
2006/07 Final 9 June 2007
2007/08 Final 28 June 2008
2008/09 Final 6 June 2009

This is why;

1. In the past, France has sent sent "D" sides on their Southern Tours
2. The 2005 Lions had to begin the NZ tour without the UK players based in France
3. Argentina hardly ever got any top players involved in finals released for June Tour matches


This season, for the first time, the Top 14 Final is in May (Saturday May 29th. 2010)