Argentinian Rugby

[FNS]

In another post it was confirmed that Ledesma will be head coach of Jags. He has exp in Aus so probably the team will do a bit better. My fear is that the whole thing is unsolvable, that the issues are rooted to deep.

If next this does not take off a lot more then 2020 we have to play another competition.

 

[petite]

Of course I think Jaguares is better than Leinster and Munster, with all due respect. Saying the contrary would be like saying the pumas are worse than Leinster and Munster after we just got 4th place in the World Cup by defeating Ireland.

Sorry, there's a limit to the self-hate/under apretiation I can take. Could Munster/ Leinster/ etc defeat Jaguares on a good day? Sure. They are elite teams, world class. Do they have their act together much more than Jaguares? Absolutely. That does not mean I rank them above Jaguares.

agree. recently the arg xv beat toulon on a friendly (good game to watch ) 40 something to 20.

 

[FNS]

Right now we are the worst tier 1 team and bad SR team. Far far away from 2014 Pumas team. We lack several key players and this situation is not getting better.

If i have to play right now a key match to access a QF against Munster or Leinster i dont know if we could beat them. Are we better on paper? yeah sure,but right know i dont know if we can win.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Escribo en argento para hacerla mas facil.
Uds ven el pro 12 y el Euro rugby champions cup?

Yo paso la mayoria del año en europa y por eso, tengo un costo y un beneficio. Mi costo es que me resulta casi imposible seguir al CASI, mas que nada por una cuestion de horarios y que no lo pasan en ningun lado, y el beneficio fue que por esa razon, termine viendo mas rugby europeo (aca lo pasan en todos lados) que argento hasta que los jaguares entraron en SR.
Dado que tengo un numero desproporiconado de amigos irlandeses termine viendo mas que nada el pro12, y en particular leinster y munster. Tengo buen click con el sentido del humor irlandes lo cual ayudo.

Yo entiendo si no lo ves seguido que haces la cuenta jaguares = pumas, munster/leinters 40% de Irlanda, y mal y pronto, digas que jaguares es mejor. Ahora, y quizas me equivoco, pero yo los veo todos los fines de semana, a sacrificio de no poder mirar a mi CASI, y me quedan pocas dudas, si leinster o munster juegan 10 partidos con jaguares, ganan mas de la mitad. Son mucho, pero MUCHO mas regulares. Jagaures en su mejor dia se la meten hasta el tuje, pero en un dia promedio, corazon de lado, nos ganan. En el peor de los casos te diria que estan palo y palo.

y el ejemplo de argentina XV vs Toulon es, con el mayor de los respetos, pobre. Toulon jugo por el pancho y la coca, les chupaba un huevo y la mitad del otro. Toulon lo agarra enterito y con ganas a Arg XV y se la mete hasta por los poros.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Mira, hagamosla facil. Nosostros perdimos con los Kings de local y ganamos de visitantes. Somos mejores pero no por mucho (mira la tabla). Veamos como les va en el PRO 14. Ese seria un parametro medianamente bueno para juzgar.
Sds

 

[FNS]

Estas seguro que es costo no ver al casi xD. Jugaste ahi cruz? Yo jugue en el SIC(camada 84) tengo 32 ahora talvez nos cruzamos. Cuando el Sic jugaba lejos y mi viejo no tenia ganas de ir, ibamos a ver al CASI o al Olivos el que tuviera mejor partido.

Estoy de acuerdo con lo de ser regulares.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Jugue unos años, pero soy un poco mas viejo. Y sobre no poder verlo, viste como es, cuando te pusiste la camiseta que se yo, termina tirando. Tenes migos que juegan, jugaron, etc.
No es que me la pasaba yendo a ver al CASI tampoco, pero me gustaba tener la opcion de aunque sea ver el resumen de la fecha.
No soy fanatico ni nada parecido, pero a veces, quizas por no poder hacerlo, me da un poco de nostalgia.

 

[petite]

Of course I think Jaguares is better than Leinster and Munster, with all due respect. Saying the contrary would be like saying the pumas are worse than Leinster and Munster after we just got 4th place in the World Cup by defeating Ireland.

Sorry, there's a limit to the self-hate/under apretiation I can take. Could Munster/ Leinster/ etc defeat Jaguares on a good day? Sure. They are elite teams, world class. Do they have their act together much more than Jaguares? Absolutely. That does not mean I rank them above Jaguares.

agree. recently the arg xv beat toulon on a friendly (good game to watch ) 40 something to 20.

Escribo en argento para hacerla mas facil.
Uds ven el pro 12 y el Euro rugby champions cup?

Yo paso la mayoria del año en europa y por eso, tengo un costo y un beneficio. Mi costo es que me resulta casi imposible seguir al CASI, mas que nada por una cuestion de horarios y que no lo pasan en ningun lado, y el beneficio fue que por esa razon, termine viendo mas rugby europeo (aca lo pasan en todos lados) que argento hasta que los jaguares entraron en SR.
Dado que tengo un numero desproporiconado de amigos irlandeses termine viendo mas que nada el pro12, y en particular leinster y munster. Tengo buen click con el sentido del humor irlandes lo cual ayudo.

Yo entiendo si no lo ves seguido que haces la cuenta jaguares = pumas, munster/leinters 40% de Irlanda, y mal y pronto, digas que jaguares es mejor. Ahora, y quizas me equivoco, pero yo los veo todos los fines de semana, a sacrificio de no poder mirar a mi CASI, y me quedan pocas dudas, si leinster o munster juegan 10 partidos con jaguares, ganan mas de la mitad. Son mucho, pero MUCHO mas regulares. Jagaures en su mejor dia se la meten hasta el tuje, pero en un dia promedio, corazon de lado, nos ganan. En el peor de los casos te diria que estan palo y palo.

y el ejemplo de argentina XV vs Toulon es, con el mayor de los respetos, pobre. Toulon jugo por el pancho y la coca, les chupaba un huevo y la mitad del otro. Toulon lo agarra enterito y con ganas a Arg XV y se la mete hasta por los poros.

jaj cierto pero a nadie le justa perder y menos por por 20. Obvio que le chupa un huevo el partido pero a arg xv tampoco le iba la vida. A lo que voy fuera del ejemplo, es que los jaguares están produciendo claramente por debajo de su potencial y aun asi quedaron a mitad de tabla. Coincido con vos que no es que dominarían el pro 12. Pero si que a que a futuro me interesa mil veces mas el SR. Muchos jugadores argentinos pudieron brillar en los torneos europeos, todavía no en en sanzaar que para mi esta un paso mas arriba . Lo de la regularidad que mecionas es totalmente verdad, con esta mentalidad puede perder contra cualquiera. pero es un desafío mas grande lograr regularidad en el SR tomando mayores riesgos y evolucionando en esa dirección. que jugar un estilo mas conservador europeo donde nos adaptaríamos mas fácil. y creo que si podríamos ganarlo al menos tendriamos muchas mas chances que de ganar el SR.

 

[Horacito]

Let's be careful with spanish, I think a while ago someone tried and they got told off by a moderator. Anyway, my last post in spanish.

Me parece recordar mirando el twitter de Cubelli que para seguir el nacional usaba espn play, ¿no? Y lo hacía desde australia viejo, seguro que por ahí se puede encontrar algo para la URBA.

Yo he visto bastante rugby europeo, y por eso tengo cuidado: cuando los irlandeses van a jugar contra los equipos franceses, los saracens y etc en el campeonato intercontinental que tienen (la champions en rugby, igual de mal planeada y mal hecha y mal publicitada, incoherente e imposible), las cosas se tuercen. Llegan lejos, pero el rugby que juegan es infinitamente más limitado, y eso no es la cuestión de la plata: mi amor por el rugby será limitado, por que yo no quiero ver a los gordos matándose a 5m de la línea de try un viernes por la noche con frío irlandés y probablemente incluso lluvia irlandesa mientras podríamos seguir en nuestro infinito esfuerzo de intentar parecernos a nueva zelanda. No veo por qué copiar modelos que han fracasado una vez, y otra vez, y otra... y la última vez fracasaron contra nosotros, ni siquiera contra nuestros socios buenos de verdad (NZ, SA y AU). Es como si me decís que vamos a copiar el modelo de escuela francesa: no hermano, vamos a copiar a los ingleses, a los irlandeses y a los kiwis, países que excepto incalaperra (tiene más población) se las manejan para producir semifinalistas/ finalistas del mundial junior TODOS los años, TODOS. Con un país con 6 millones de personas.

La UAR se ha equivocado mucho con algunas cosas de Jaguares, pero no con el modelo que tenemos que imitar, el que ha producido la selección más dominante de la historia del deporte, de cualquier deporte. Lo que se ve, la distancia de Jaguares a Blues, a los equipos menores de la competencia neozelandesa, es la distancia de un profesionalismo a otro, y eso se cierra compitiendo contra los mejores, no yéndose a pro D12, es como cuando dijeron irse al 6N: el cambio del mundial 2011 a 2015 con pladar, con competencia regular en el 4N... perdemos como perros, pero mejoramos. ¿Son de los 80? Mis tíos eran pumas en los 80 y 90, y ahí si que sabían lo que era perder: venían a europa a ser masacrados, destruidos, golpeados y humillados, pero solo 25 años después ya estamos acá; todo lo que llegue bueno va a venir por el mismo camino de siempre: fracasar, perder, aprender, mejorar. Ha sido así 120 años y probablemente nos queden otros tantos igual.

En fin, saludos muchachos.

P.D: sorry to the moderators if this was wrong

 

[pupupu]

http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/fixturesandresults/35984.php

Guys, thank you and thanks to everyone in this forum for all your explanations and comments. It helps me understand the rugby game and rules a little bit better, I am just a football fan
I am afraid you are forgetting that it wasnt the full strenght Irish team on that 2015 world cup quarter-final....I dont know enough about the game to judge if these changes brought the Irish team level down a lot or not, but I think it affected the irish team because all reports of that game talk about it. Los Pumas were affected by injuries on their last game at that world cup and their level went down a lot

 

[The Jones Boy]

I'm sorry guys, my Spanish puts the rude into rudimentary.
I can't keep up with the posts when you switch to your native tongue.
However, the posts you put up in English are entertaining because i have no insight into Argentinian rugby and you fellas do, so I enjoy learning about whats happening in your sphere through you lads.
Cheers.

On the last RWC, I was at Wembley with thewife and mates for the Argentina vs All Blacks game and I didn't think the Pumas were weak. They played tough hard and strong. They were up against a team of champions but they were no easy beats by any stretch. Many kiwi's were impressed by how strong the Pumas played that day.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Let's be careful with spanish, I think a while ago someone tried and they got told off by a moderator. Anyway, my last post in spanish.

I understand. There is a thread for south africans where they write almost exclusively in afrikaans. If there is a thread for us to use the occasional spanish post here and there this should be it. But let's play it safe

@TRF_heineken @TRF_stormer2010
Any problem with the above? Just let us know

Me parece recordar mirando el twitter de Cubelli que para seguir el nacional usaba espn play, ¿no? Y lo hacía desde australia viejo, seguro que por ahí se puede encontrar algo para la URBA.

El 99% de los videos de ahi me dice "el video no esta disponible en tu pais". Gracias igual por la idea.

 

[Horacito]

Well, I do apologize for my part. Let's do a recap:

pupupu:

Sure it wasn't a full strenght irish team, but neither was a full strenght argentinian team. Only Figallo being out is a huge loss for argentina 2015, as well as Galarza and Montero. Plus, argentina didn't defeat ireland because of "strenght", it was a systematic attack on the irish defense, focused in the central channels of the attack, leaving the wider channels opened to Cordero, Imhoff, Moroni and Tuculet: it's no coincidence that all the tries came in the exact same spot of the field Rewatch the match with Albanese's comments and you'll see how that victory was builded. It was on equal grounds, fair and square: you don't win by 20 points thanks to injuries. We won because we played profesionally and seriously.

Jones boy:

The summary of the discussion is: is it better for Jaguares to play Pro D12 or SR? And I say SR, Cruz del Sur says Pro, Petite says SR... and this brings into discussion the question of how to manage the growth of argentinian rugby, how it happened and how to go forward.

My points are:

-Jaguares is superior to munster and to leinster.
-I don't want to watch jaguares playing in a european style of playing rugby: I want super rugby rugby.
-I don't see myself watching our gordos killing themselves 5m away from try in an irish evening with irish cold and even irish rain.
-The UAR has made some mistakes with Jaguares, be they're right in the model we should be imitating: New Zealand, England and Ireland. Particularily, Ireland and New Zealand, who produce great players with a small population. England is admirable as well, and the last junior WCs go on to show just that.
-I just have a hard time trying to understand why should we go on to play Benetton and etc with the current team we have, which only loses against SR teams due to poor tradition in professional rugby within the country and nothing to do with players, infrastructure, etc. We can make it to playoff in SR, we just need more time, just like we needed 2007-2015 to actually get to Tier 1, because things take this much gents.
-The history of argentinian rugby, since my grandparents and my great grandparents played it is a story of soul crushing defeats, some memorable victories and tough learning, and the idea that all that is going to be different because we are playing SR seems kind of naive to me: it's going to be just as tough and is going to take as much time as we have to get there. End of story.

Cheers

 

[pupupu]

Horacito, I have no access to espn either nor spanish commentators, I watch everything on Yum tv or at the pub
I agree with you, I hope Jaguares remain in Super rugby. The best that can happen to argentinian rugby is to get Argentina XV to play a pro competition in Europe
In the irish pub that game in the quarter final many people were talking they didnt have their best players, I was jumping so happy with Imhoff try I was shouting at them this is The All Light Blues and Whites
I cant comment on tactics, I have no clue. I like superrugby, it is an amazing game. Very dynamic. The most interesting competition in sports, the only true global tournament being played in 5 continents: South America, Africa, Asia, Oceania and Zealandia( Yes, Zealandia is a continent: http://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/27/3/article/GSATG321A.1.htm )

Since I dont belong to the rugby world, I might have a different view than you
This is my second year watching super rugby because of Jaguares, when I watch a sport I always like supporting someone and now I have a team to support, so what I see is this:

1)Captain
I never saw it in another sport. Why is a player who cant finnish the game the captain of the team?
I saw captains leaving their team for injuries but never because their form allows only 45-50 minutes of play at full strenght
When captain leaves, the team clearly loses power in any sport, it is usually the guy who is the leader of the team
Is this common in rugby that captains leave the team every game at minute 45-60 of the game?
I didnt see any other superrugby team giving this advantage
Creevy seems to be a powerhorse that can come in the second half and change the course of a game with his power when other players are tired, why they never try this?

2)Management
I cant comment on tactics and training system because I have no clue
But I can give you my 2 cents about their attitude
Hourcade in different press conferences and interviews remarked that the priority is Los Pumas and Jaguares is at Los Pumas service
He also explained that Jaguares games are in fact practices towards Los Pumas games
I think Eddie Jones watches superrugby and saw all the practices alive on tv at home and England C beat Los Pumas twice at home
To play super rugby games considering them as a practice, is totally unrespectful to fans,to rival teams, to the tournment and to neutral spectators
I saw a team that win or lose, they dont seem to care much about it because they are being paid to practice
I think the manager's attitude is amateurish
Maybe the last 2 games won at Australia were a practice towards the Rugby Championship and I am sure Mr Cheika was watching the practices too

3)Jaguares best players and the most positive achievement so far
We have a positive record against aussie teams, 3 wins(1 at home against Reds A minus couple of top players rested and 2 away) and 2 home losses. I think it is the greatest achievement so far
From our own Africa 2 conference; 2 wins(Kings away and Lions B at home) and 4 losses
With Africa 1; 2 wins(Sunwolves and Cheetahs B at home) and 2 away losses

The stars and the best Jaguares players were the dreadful number 16th player: Mr Jet Lag and the number 17th player: Mr Flying time
Without these two players, I think the scores on the home games against Lions B, Cheetahs B and Reds A Minus would have been different if they would have brought their best team
But if you are playing practices, dont expect your opponent to do anything else but to bring a practicing team too.
All other teams brought their A teams and got wins from Buenos Aires with the exception of a very hard fought win against Sunwolves

4)B teams and tournament format
The 2016/17 and the new super rugby format give some unfair advantage to Sunwolves and Jaguares
The format encourages B teams being sent to play in Japan and Argentina because of the jet lag and/or flying time
It is not worth at all to do the whole trip for just one game
South Africa is closer to Argentina than New Zealand
But flying from Johannesbourg to Buenos Aires takes 17 hours if you are lucky and flying from Auckland to Buenos Aires takes 13 hours
This is because there are no direct flights between South Africa and Argentina.
South African Airways stopped flying to Argentina in 2013. To connect a stopover must be done in Brazil
I can understand Ackerman when he is resting his players, it is not worth the trip, it takes 2 full days to travel and come back plus an extra 3 days of recovery
Kiwis travel less but need more time to recover from the jet lag, at least 5 days both ways
The human body is not prepared for this kind of travel around time zones. Even if you are a superathlete, it affects performance.
So we all will keep watching this B teams phenomena on games in Japan and Argentina which doesnt help at all to the development of rugby and to bring more spectators to the game.
In order to solve this unfair advantage and to also expand the interest of the game, the best is to introduce the concept of neutral games
Every team must play a neutral game on a neutral continent.
So when teams travel to South America or Asia, they play 2 games, one against the local team and one neutral game in that same continent.
You talk a lot about expandiong the game and catching new markets like Japan or Usa.
You could play in Brazil, big country big market. If brazilians watch kiwi teams play against a southafrican team in a football stadium maybe they will start to love the game and brazilians are real good and have flair at any ball game and at any team game.
Something like this is a win win situation. Teams have enough time to recover and playing at least 2 games makes the trip worthwhile to do it with your best team because if not you are giving too much advantage in a 15 team tournament.
And make it round robin. The first 4 teams are assured of quarter final spot with home games
From 5 to 12 will play a playoff to access the quarter final spot. 5th vs 12th;6th vs 11th; 7th vs 10th and 8th against 9th with home advantage to the better team
With a format like this it would be a fairer tournament without unfair advantages, it would develop the game farther in regions unexplored today and it will bring more people to the stadiums to see teams battling until the last round for a playoff spot and it will bring more intense, emotional and passionate games.

 

[Horacito]

Hey,
well, a charitatibe soul just posted some of them on youtube; run before they get erased.

About what you said:

captain:

yeah, there's no human way anybody can remain in the field for 80 min when playing prop or hooker, it's just not possible. Hookers, props and flankers are usually captains, along with 10's, 9's, because they are inspiring, they do most of the dirty work and hard defense, which qualifies as dirty work just as much. Example: McCaw always played with more spectacular players in the attack, yet he was almost always captain of his team due to his game being an example of dedication and discipline (not towards the rules, which he usually bended to his own benefit). Same goes for Moore in Australia, Johnson in England, and so on. They don't have to play 80 minutes because when the stakes are high (first 60 minutes) they are usually the ones on the front, being exemplary.

Managment:

Yeah that was really unfortunate by Hourcade, specially because benefits from this tactic are invisible right now and it seams the situation is getting worse: Pumas are playing just as bad as jaguares and the sinergy seems really negative.

Jaguares victories:

probably the best thing this season was the improvement in discipline, in set pieces, on the line (serious one here, really good lines for us this year) and maul/ scrum. However, everyone in our conference was better when it came to BEING A PRO, which we so obviously are not yet.

Competition:

I think this year is the last with the conference system, someone with more knowledge than me should explain how this is going to affect Jags.

Playing in brazil would be awesome.

 

[petite]

this is argentinian rugby we can do it in spanish but as we have some non spanish guests we can switch to english!

 

[Brigantine]

I'm no mod or anything but here's my 2c on languages:

I don't usually post here, but I do follow nearly everything, because it's interesting etc.
I sometimes try to follow the stuff in Spanish (via google translate etc.). I think I catch only about 5% of the slang, but 50% of everything else...

Contrast with:
Afrikaans - I tried and basically gave up following any of that. Partly because it's impossible, mostly because I don't need to - there's plenty of other South African opinion on TRF to follow.
French / German / Japanese rugby - I want to know more but there just isn't much content in any language. (meaning specifically on TRF). Foreign language content would be better than no content.

Firstly I absolutely appreciate it when you guys make the effort to post in English and I can follow it easily. But also I don't for a minute want to discourage the Spanish posts - the more content and more Argentinians posting the better. The worst thing that could happen is if some people get chased away to a Spanish forum and it gets quiet here.

IMO how it is now with ~50:50 English/Spanish is good. (just not when it's a whole page of Spanish and then a whole page of English).

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

The problem i see with disallowing the odd spanish post here and there is that what will happen is we will open another thread in spanish (just like the afrikaans one) and just continue the conversation there. Everyone loses.

 

[pupupu]

The best you can do when posting in spanish, just offer a translation in english in the same post to argentinian slang/lunfardo words
For instance, when Cruz uses terms in spanish like "se les frunce el orto" which are totally accurate in describing how the players feel when the stakes are high and they are playing for the money, I think should be offered a cultural translation or an explanation.
I dont know if translating it as "they knit their assholes" could be a proper translation to get the full cultural meaning of it .... to translate it as "they **** in their pants" i'd say is politically correct compared to the term fruncir el orto
If you start translating argentinian slang, keep a post with the translations so people can try to follow the meanings of it

Horacito, thank you very much for taking your time to explain

 

[petite]

guido petti was chosen for the ideal team of super rugby. thoughts? should we open a jaguares thread in the SR section for this kind of post?