B
BLR
Guest
I understand why, thier nationalism started wars while ours starts passionate games.
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B
Bullitt
Guest
It's nothing to do with a lack of national pride, the fact is the unions in the North do not have the clubs interests in mind when it comes to test rugby.
For example, the England Elite squad players are away from their clubs for up to 14 weeks out of a Premiership season. When there are only 24 rounds in total that's a significant time away to have some of your best players missing; Especially when a lot of these clubs are businesses that rely on the money people pay to watch these players for their financial survival - forgetting of course 2/3 of the season with your best players missing means your status as a top flight club is needlessly put at risk.
The RFU are a good example of sport governed with the Bernie Ecclestone mentality - "It's my toy and I'll play with it as I please". Similarly to Ecclestone, Baron and the RFU have been plotting for some time a way to undermine the clubs with the regional 10-franchise system, ring fencing the Premiership and central contracts in a manor which makes Silverstone losing its Grand Prix to Donnington Park look fair.
There could be a case for the regional teams, ring fencing and central contracts; The Magners league had reasonable (if wavering) success while the Super 14 has enjoyed a large following for a while. However because of the history and rivalries revolving around most of the clubs is as old as test rugby itself, the idea of merging, say Leicester and Northampton to form the "Midlanders" would fall on it's backside as nobody would ever support it. The support of the club fans are the heartbeat in English rugby and they simply would not support another plastic team with anywhere near the same passion or feverishly. Interest would dwindle and the sport would slowly die.
While Test rugby is a spectacle, far too much emphasis is put on it as a rival to football in world popularity while forgetting that the game at a human level (which top flight non-test rugby still is) needs to develop and expand for the good of the game. Yes, that will mean that eventually players are paid stupid money and yes the amateur ethos will eventually vanish, but that's part and parcel of professionalism.
If domestic rugby was promoted properly and turned into a 30-40,000 attendance spectacle week in, week out at each club [blink]-not pre-fabricated franchises-[/blink], which would be a piece of **** if the union really wanted to, and the National team was taken away from the corporates and given back to the fans, Rugby wouldn't need all these silly "club vs country" debates or ideas of ELVs and Orks needed to improve the perception of the game. It would become a self sustaining powerhouse in worldwide sports, up there with Football and Gridiron on a worldwide scale. The improving rugby would come with that.
Of course, in it's current state the pointless tests are played, the clubs get screwed over, the unions pocket a lot of money and the players are burned out and never properly developed. The sport's never going anywhere like that.
The FFR, IRFU, WRU and SRU all have their own problems also, but I don't fully know the ins and outs of them.
For example, the England Elite squad players are away from their clubs for up to 14 weeks out of a Premiership season. When there are only 24 rounds in total that's a significant time away to have some of your best players missing; Especially when a lot of these clubs are businesses that rely on the money people pay to watch these players for their financial survival - forgetting of course 2/3 of the season with your best players missing means your status as a top flight club is needlessly put at risk.
The RFU are a good example of sport governed with the Bernie Ecclestone mentality - "It's my toy and I'll play with it as I please". Similarly to Ecclestone, Baron and the RFU have been plotting for some time a way to undermine the clubs with the regional 10-franchise system, ring fencing the Premiership and central contracts in a manor which makes Silverstone losing its Grand Prix to Donnington Park look fair.
There could be a case for the regional teams, ring fencing and central contracts; The Magners league had reasonable (if wavering) success while the Super 14 has enjoyed a large following for a while. However because of the history and rivalries revolving around most of the clubs is as old as test rugby itself, the idea of merging, say Leicester and Northampton to form the "Midlanders" would fall on it's backside as nobody would ever support it. The support of the club fans are the heartbeat in English rugby and they simply would not support another plastic team with anywhere near the same passion or feverishly. Interest would dwindle and the sport would slowly die.
While Test rugby is a spectacle, far too much emphasis is put on it as a rival to football in world popularity while forgetting that the game at a human level (which top flight non-test rugby still is) needs to develop and expand for the good of the game. Yes, that will mean that eventually players are paid stupid money and yes the amateur ethos will eventually vanish, but that's part and parcel of professionalism.
If domestic rugby was promoted properly and turned into a 30-40,000 attendance spectacle week in, week out at each club [blink]-not pre-fabricated franchises-[/blink], which would be a piece of **** if the union really wanted to, and the National team was taken away from the corporates and given back to the fans, Rugby wouldn't need all these silly "club vs country" debates or ideas of ELVs and Orks needed to improve the perception of the game. It would become a self sustaining powerhouse in worldwide sports, up there with Football and Gridiron on a worldwide scale. The improving rugby would come with that.
Of course, in it's current state the pointless tests are played, the clubs get screwed over, the unions pocket a lot of money and the players are burned out and never properly developed. The sport's never going anywhere like that.
The FFR, IRFU, WRU and SRU all have their own problems also, but I don't fully know the ins and outs of them.
P
Prestwick
Guest
Considering they have been screwing us over consistently for the past few years now sending weak squads it is more than warranted. [/b][/quote]
No, the Clubs have been screwing you over. This is where the fundemental misunderstaning and sheer lack of knowledge of NH rugby stems from.
To be diplomatic, there is no finer honour than to play for your country, everyone who plays rugby in England wants to do it. The new generation like Haskell, Hartley, Cipriani, etc rant on endlessly about it because they're that pumped about the jersey.
However, they also have firm and passionate commitments to their clubs, the people who have brought them up, taught them everything they know and has heritage spanning back over the best part of a century and a half for some clubs.
You have to understand that with two very compelling choices on the table, and with clubs ultimately having the final say on whether their men are availible or not, the Unions haven't got much power anymore.
This is professionalism. Deal with it or die.
The RFU (despite its idiotic management) has done just that and the new deal with the clubs means that we WILL send a full squad down under next year and that the clubs will be fully compensated. And rightly so too. Many clubs still operate on meagre profits and sometimes losses, they need all the cash they can get just to survive.
T
Thingimubob
Guest
We may be queer, but at least we have 2 Grandslams under ur belt from over the last three years.But yeah Teh Mite is probably right (not about us being queers obviously) some of the 6 Nations see club games more important than Internationals. Wales don't, (we're a proud bunch for both our clubs and national team, but the national team brings everyone together I guess), Italy don't and can't Scotland and Ireland being like that, even if the clubs did well and the national sides faltered. So the main one's are England and France, probably has something to do with the intesity of the Guinness Premiership/Top 14 with the Heineken Cup (Magners League is a bit more laid back than, doesn't mean it's not intense at all though). I mean I;ve heard of a French crowd turning against their National side when they play badly, but have heard that supporters will shout and cheer for their club whether their 40 points ahead or 40 points behind.
Anyway back on topic - this idea's a but daft, I mean I have no problem with New Zealand and Australia touring each other, but why do it in June, when in about a month they'll be playing Tri Nations games against each other? And where are the teams that plan on touring Aus and NZ gonna go now? Only South Africa and Argentina are left open to them, and everyone can't go there.
F
feicarsinn
Guest
how the hell is this fair on france??? look i kno it may be infuriating after what happened last year but you have to remember the clubs pushed the T14 way back for the WC so there was always going to be consequences for that. anyways i wouldnt have sent a full strength side down anyways after the 12 month long seasno those players have gone through.
and SANZAR its hugely ignorant to say that in the NH unions operate seperate to clubs. In Ireland Wales and Scotland the provences are ran for the mostpart by the unions
and SANZAR its hugely ignorant to say that in the NH unions operate seperate to clubs. In Ireland Wales and Scotland the provences are ran for the mostpart by the unions
B
BLR
Guest
We sort our clubs out, you've had since the start of the proffessional era to sort yours out but you haven't sorted a thing, it's your whole rugby unions fault for not getting your act together.
B
Bullitt
Guest
Are you smoking crack or something? :huh:
D
DonBilly
Guest
How do you achieve this if the clubs don't belong to you? The strength of the clubs didn't pop up when the game went open, they were already strong.
V
Vambo
Guest
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
B
BLR
Guest
Hell, if I knew the answers I'd be a rich man, just sort em out, rugby is going to be like Football if you don't.
D
DonBilly
Guest
Well if Rugby was as popular as football then NZ and Australia would not play each other 4 times a year ... There would be many more nations playing top level Rugby.
S
Steve-o
Guest
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
[/b][/quote]
You're just tired of getting whooped on your our backyard
It's funny that NH was harping about ELVs because it so called took away rugby's traditional strengths. Advocating the end of SH vs NH tours is taking away a very traditional strength of Test rugby, instead the NH wants the new up and coming stronghold called club rugby.
We all got double standards.
K
KZNSharksFan
Guest
Well if Rugby was as popular as football then NZ and Australia would not play each other 4 times a year ... There would be many more nations playing top level Rugby.
[/b][/quote]
Well, not really. Internationals in Football are a joke (apart from world cup etc) They're called "friendlies". The more money there is being pumped into rugby, the more power the clubs will have
D
DonBilly
Guest
Well if Rugby was as popular as football then NZ and Australia would not play each other 4 times a year ... There would be many more nations playing top level Rugby.
[/b][/quote]
Well, not really. Internationals in Football are a joke (apart from world cup etc) They're called "friendlies". The more money there is being pumped into rugby, the more power the clubs will have [/b][/quote]
There are vey few frinedlies actually, at least ine Europe, before playing the World cup or the European cup they have to get out of the qualification phase which is played over a two year period. So basically most of the match are not friendlies.
They have to do that because there are many top level football nations. I'd like Rugby to be played at a decent level in as many countries as football.
V
Vambo
Guest
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
[/b][/quote]
You're just tired of getting whooped on your our backyard
It's funny that NH was harping about ELVs because it so called took away rugby's traditional strengths. Advocating the end of SH vs NH tours is taking away a very traditional strength of Test rugby, instead the NH wants the new up and coming stronghold called club rugby.
We all got double standards.
[/b][/quote]
Not at all mate. What I am tired of though is seeing players needlessly flogged to death at the end of a hard, attritional season.
Regards the ELVs... I'm in favour of many (in fact probably most) of them.
B
Bullitt
Guest
Oh look, a certain South African member has started confusing hemispheres with ELVs again...
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
[/b][/quote]
You're just tired of getting whooped on your our backyard
It's funny that NH was harping about ELVs because it so called took away rugby's traditional strengths. Advocating the end of SH vs NH tours is taking away a very traditional strength of Test rugby, instead the NH wants the new up and coming stronghold called club rugby.
We all got double standards. [/b][/quote]
I'm sorry, what point exactly are you trying to make... Other then"I have a chip on my shoulder and don't like the northern hemisphere, so I'll take a cheep dig when ever I can".
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
[/b][/quote]
You're just tired of getting whooped on your our backyard
It's funny that NH was harping about ELVs because it so called took away rugby's traditional strengths. Advocating the end of SH vs NH tours is taking away a very traditional strength of Test rugby, instead the NH wants the new up and coming stronghold called club rugby.
We all got double standards. [/b][/quote]
I'm sorry, what point exactly are you trying to make... Other then"I have a chip on my shoulder and don't like the northern hemisphere, so I'll take a cheep dig when ever I can".
S
Steve-o
Guest
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
[/b][/quote]
You're just tired of getting whooped on your our backyard
It's funny that NH was harping about ELVs because it so called took away rugby's traditional strengths. Advocating the end of SH vs NH tours is taking away a very traditional strength of Test rugby, instead the NH wants the new up and coming stronghold called club rugby.
We all got double standards.
[/b][/quote]
Not at all mate. What I am tired of though is seeing players needlessly flogged to death at the end of a hard, attritional season.
Regards the ELVs... I'm in favour of many (in fact probably most) of them.
[/b][/quote]
As far as I know the SH end of year tour is near the beginning of the NH season.
More importantly, do you have an opinion about the possible end of the traditional SH vs NH tours? We all know how guys like to keep things "traditional"
E
EnglandWillWin2011
Guest
How can NZ complain when they don't select their best possible team?
S
Steve-o
Guest
This debate is not about the ELVs, I used it for arguments sake.
B
Bullitt
Guest
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
[/b][/quote]
You're just tired of getting whooped on your our backyard
It's funny that NH was harping about ELVs because it so called took away rugby's traditional strengths. Advocating the end of SH vs NH tours is taking away a very traditional strength of Test rugby, instead the NH wants the new up and coming stronghold called club rugby.
We all got double standards.
[/b][/quote]
Not at all mate. What I am tired of though is seeing players needlessly flogged to death at the end of a hard, attritional season.
Regards the ELVs... I'm in favour of many (in fact probably most) of them.
[/b][/quote]
As far as I know the SH end of year tour is near the beginning of the NH season.
More importantly, do you have an opinion about the possible end of the traditional SH vs NH tours? We all know how guys like to keep things "traditional" [/b][/quote]
There is no "tradition" about these tours, they're only a regular fixture of the past decade or so. And careful of that chip on your shoulder, it may just split you in half.
Still, it'll be interesting to see what you're like when SA dump SANZAR and jump into bet with the RFU and FFR.
This debate is not about the ELVs, I used it for arguments sake. [/b][/quote]
Oh, that's what you did.... I thought you were going off topic again for the sake of taking a cheep shot at the NH. What a silly mistake of mine...
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