ARU/NZRU to refuse NH tours

[Steve-o]

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On the plus side, there won't be any more pointless tours buggering things up for the clubs. While you're at it, scrap the Autumn internationals.

Summer tours have always been milking exercises designed to line the bigwigs coffers, harking back to the amateur days when that was the only way to make money.. Real rugby is played at club/regional level and that's where the real passion is.

I for one won't miss them (or autumn internationals should they suffer the same fate).
[/b]

:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
[/b][/quote]
You're just tired of getting whooped on your our backyard

It's funny that NH was harping about ELVs because it so called took away rugby's traditional strengths. Advocating the end of SH vs NH tours is taking away a very traditional strength of Test rugby, instead the NH wants the new up and coming stronghold called club rugby.

We all got double standards.
[/b][/quote]

Not at all mate. What I am tired of though is seeing players needlessly flogged to death at the end of a hard, attritional season.

Regards the ELVs... I'm in favour of many (in fact probably most) of them.
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As far as I know the SH end of year tour is near the beginning of the NH season.
More importantly, do you have an opinion about the possible end of the traditional SH vs NH tours? We all know how guys like to keep things "traditional" [/b][/quote]

There is no "tradition" about these tours, they're only a regular fixture of the past decade or so. And careful of that chip on your shoulder, it may just split you in half.

Still, it'll be interesting to see what you're like when SA dump SANZAR and jump into bet with the RFU and FFR.

[/b][/quote]
SH teams have been touring Europe on regular /occasional basis for about 100 years now, when the pro era began this tradition grew stronger. But now that they are interfering with their rich clubs, some Unions have opted to change nature of the tours. I just find it funny how the NH was taking the moral high ground with the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" concerning the ELVs, but now that they broke the tradition of the SH tours because it suits them, they reckon it's ok. That's why I said "We all got double standards". Ireland, Wales and Scotland are exceptions.

 

[Bullitt]

Good point, except it's the Kiwis and Aussies who started this blabbering. ********. And the phenomenon of "The Autumn Internationals" or "The Summer tours" have not been regular annual fixtures for the past century. You're now making up your 'facts' as you go along.

Now go back and sit in your tower. Carve yourself a new chip.

 

[Vambo]

As far as I know the SH end of year tour is near the beginning of the NH season.
More importantly, do you have an opinion about the possible end of the traditional SH vs NH tours? We all know how guys like to keep things "traditional"
[/b]

I'm fairly sure that within a day or two of Wasps winning the GP final, those Wasps players picked for the tour were reporting for England duty... little chance to celebrate what they had achieved at club level and zero chance of rest.

Regards 'traditional':
Rugby Union in the NH as changed significantly in recent years especially at club level. For a very good overview of how things have moved on in England at club level check this page out:
The Premiership

You also have to factor in the Heineken Cup which has really taken off and is now a huge focus for many teams.

The goal posts have been moved and whilst there are traditionalists still trying to cling onto some sort of amateur ethos it is becoming more and more apparent that something has to give in this professional era and I can guarantee it won't be the clubs because club rugby in the NH is going from strength to strength and will continue to do so for quite some time yet IMO.

Twickenham was full for the GP final between Wasps & Leicester and that IMO is very much a sign of how far club rugby in England as progressed.

 

[DonBilly]

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As far as I know the SH end of year tour is near the beginning of the NH season.
More importantly, do you have an opinion about the possible end of the traditional SH vs NH tours? We all know how guys like to keep things "traditional"
[/b]

I'm fairly sure that within a day or two of Wasps winning the GP final, those Wasps players picked for the tour were reporting for England duty... little chance to celebrate what they had achieved at club level and zero chance of rest.

Regards 'traditional':
Rugby Union in the NH as changed significantly in recent years especially at club level. For a very good overview of how things have moved on in England at club level check this page out:
The Premiership

You also have to factor in the Heineken Cup which has really taken off and is now a huge focus for many teams.

The goal posts have been moved and whilst there are traditionalists still trying to cling onto some sort of amateur ethos it is becoming more and more apparent that something has to give in this professional era and I can guarantee it won't be the clubs because club rugby in the NH is going from strength to strength and will continue to do so for quite some time yet IMO.

Twickenham was full for the GP final between Wasps & Leicester and that IMO is very much a sign of how far club rugby in England as progressed.

[/b][/quote]

Very interesting post

French Rugby championship is almost one century older than its English counterpart, it started in 1892 (2 years after the Currie cup). The final when played at the Parc des Princes (until 1997) were full like they used to be before the move to Parc des Princes in the early 70's. When moved to Stade de France it took a couple of years before the stadium was sold out for the final. Nowadays if this stadium was 150 000 seats it would be full for the final. Semi-Finals are also sold out.

More and more people are attending the Top14 matchs and consequently many clubs have planed to increase the size of their stadiums: Biarritz, Bayonne, Bourgoin, Toulon, Paris - Stade Français, Paris - Racing, Perpignan, ...

An interesting news this week was that in the best selling tickets list which mixes concerts, theatre and sport events, the second position was hold by the Stade Français 4-match at the Stade France package. They have sold 10 000 of them in less than a week although in the middle of the summer while most of the French are resting for holydays.

Regarding the tours, yes I think it is part of the tradition. However these tours were organised at a time when the 3N didn't exist and there was much more flexibility in term of dates. I rememebr as a child watching the Bastille day (14th of July) test match versus the ABs. Nowadays there are many more Rugby matchs both at Club and Country levels.

I'd like to keep the tours as I already said but I would prefer to have a single 4 or 5 weeks window dedicated to this. These tours can be alternatively played in the SH and NH. The Tours would get back some of their tradition and their scarcity would increase the level of interest although in Europe the stadiums are always full I think.

 

[smartcooky]

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On the plus side, there won't be any more pointless tours buggering things up for the clubs. While you're at it, scrap the Autumn internationals.

Summer tours have always been milking exercises designed to line the bigwigs coffers, harking back to the amateur days when that was the only way to make money.. Real rugby is played at club/regional level and that's where the real passion is.

I for one won't miss them (or autumn internationals should they suffer the same fate).
[/b]

:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
[/b][/quote]
You're just tired of getting whooped on your our backyard

It's funny that NH was harping about ELVs because it so called took away rugby's traditional strengths. Advocating the end of SH vs NH tours is taking away a very traditional strength of Test rugby, instead the NH wants the new up and coming stronghold called club rugby.

We all got double standards.
[/b][/quote]

Not at all mate. What I am tired of though is seeing players needlessly flogged to death at the end of a hard, attritional season.

Regards the ELVs... I'm in favour of many (in fact probably most) of them.


[/b][/quote]

CLUB RUGBY
Guinness Premiership.... 22 matches + playoffs
Top 14...........................26 matches plus playoffs
Magners League.............18 matches
Heineken Cup..................6 matches plus playoffs

Top teams could play between 24 and 37 matches

INTERNATIONAL RUGBY
Six Nations.....................5 matches
June Tours......................2-3 matches
Autumn Tours..................3-4 matches

Teams could play between 10 and 12 matchs

Remind me again how International Rugby flogs the players out!!

Rugby fans the world over are interested in International Rugby, but no-one outside of England gives a fat rats arse about the Guinness Premiership. Most couldn't even name a team that plays in it.

 

[Bullitt]

Rugby fans the world over are interested in International Rugby, but no-one outside of England gives a fat rats arse about the Guinness Premiership. Most couldn't even name a team that plays in it.
[/b]

Well that may be the case for you, but don't speak for everyone. You're clearly an idiot who would bring everyone else down.

 

[Sir Speedy]

<div class='quotemain'>Rugby fans the world over are interested in International Rugby, but no-one outside of England gives a fat rats arse about the Guinness Premiership. Most couldn't even name a team that plays in it.
[/b]

Well that may be the case for you, but don't speak for everyone. You're clearly an idiot who would bring everyone else down.
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I couldn't have put it more...correctly.

 

[smartcooky]

<div class='quotemain'>Rugby fans the world over are interested in International Rugby, but no-one outside of England gives a fat rats arse about the Guinness Premiership. Most couldn't even name a team that plays in it.
[/b]

Well that may be the case for you, but don't speak for everyone. You're clearly an idiot who would bring everyone else down.
[/b][/quote]

So I'm an idiot because I'm not interested in the Guiness Premiership?

 

[Sir Speedy]

So I'm an idiot because I'm not interested in the Guiness Premiership?

[/b]

No, you're an idiot for thinking everyone in the World outside of England shares your views.

 

[DonBilly]

Rugby fans the world over are interested in International Rugby, but no-one outside of England gives a fat rats arse about the Guinness Premiership. Most couldn't even name a team that plays in it.[/b]

Well since the H-cup started in 1996 the interest for the other European championships increased in France, especially for the Guinness Premiership and to a lesser extent for the Magner League. A couple of GP can be watched every week during the season. The GP final was available on FTA TV.

The English and Itralian clubs as well as the Celtic provinces are now well known by the French Rugby fans something no one could have thought at ten years ago.

 

[smartcooky]

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So I'm an idiot because I'm not interested in the Guiness Premiership?

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No, you're an idiot for thinking everyone in the World outside of England shares your views.
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Are you so seriously full of your own self importance that you think anyone (other than perhaps ex-pats) give a fig about the GP outside of England, or at least Europe.

European club rugby competititons don't rate at all. Thats not my opinion, thats a FACT. You cannot pick up any kind of television coverage of any of the Euro Club competitions outside of Europe except for the occasional HC match on ESPN2 usually only after January when the NFL Season ends.

In New Zealand you can see quite a bit of European club rugby IF you subsribe the the Rugby Channel, which is really only for hard out fans. Its never seen on any of the other Sky Sports channels. Its not shown in Australia, Japan, Usa or Canada or AFAIK South Africa.

On the other hand Six Nations rates big time. Every match live with delayed full replays at reasonable hours.

That is the point I am making, dimwit.

 

[Prestwick]

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Not at all mate. What I am tired of though is seeing players needlessly flogged to death at the end of a hard, attritional season.
[/b]

CLUB RUGBY
Guinness Premiership.... 22 matches + playoffs
Top 14...........................26 matches plus playoffs
Magners League.............18 matches
Heineken Cup..................6 matches plus playoffs

Top teams could play between 24 and 37 matches

INTERNATIONAL RUGBY
Six Nations.....................5 matches
June Tours......................2-3 matches
Autumn Tours..................3-4 matches

Teams could play between 10 and 12 matchs

Remind me again how International Rugby flogs the players out!!

Rugby fans the world over are interested in International Rugby, but no-one outside of England gives a fat rats arse about the Guinness Premiership. Most couldn't even name a team that plays in it.
[/b][/quote]

First of all, check your quotes and your facts. Mite was referring to how the domestic season flogs players.

Then, your figures are fatally flawed. For a "student of the game" you've missed out about ten GP games, the EDF cup, the European Challange Cup and the fact that players are complaining of serious burnout. Jesus christ, the Professional Rugby Players' Association (PRA) have been saying this for years!

To correct what you said here is what the average GP team would have to play:



Guinness Premiership commitments: 22 games at least (24 if they get through to the GP final).

GP Commitments plus HEC: A possible 24 games including 6 HEC games (9 HEC games, again, if they get to the final).

GP Commitments plus EDF & HEC: A possible 24 games plus a possible 9 HEC games plus a possible 5 EDF games if they get to the final.



Thus, Leicester for example played a total of 35 games last season between September 2007 and May 2008. Straight after that, their players reported for duty for England and duly boarded planes for New Zealand. Obviously those players don't give two craps about the England jersey, better dump em' I say.

And then theres Italy and Argentina, they have to endure similar seasons and then rush back to play yet more rugby over what should be their summer break. For christsakes, Argentina are more or less being forced at gunpoint to play yet another game in South Africa after a long World Cup Campaign, a grueling club and HEC season in the NH then legging it thousands of miles south to Argentina to play Scotland and Italy and now having to rush over to South Africa to play there! Obviously, they don't register on your radar, damn minnow one trick ponies that they are!

I don't know where you get off mate, but that does cause burnout. The PRA agrees, the majority of players agree and medical staff agree.

And on your final 'point' about GP rugby (I'd rather call it an ignorant outburst but I have to be civil, lest I offend anyone ) I'm so glad yu've taken up the mantle of representing, well, everyone! Thanks for telling us what apparently we already knew, regardless of if we disagree with what you said! Nice one!

No, the reality is different, we in England can easily name teams in the ML, Top 14 and the Super 10 in Italy and vice versa. I mean we have to play each other on a regular basis in the ECC, EDF, HEC and ML! If you can't name more than five teams in the NH then that belies a certain ignorance and lack of understanding on your part.

We're not self important, we're just saying "er..hello..we have club rugby up here too" without fear of being attacked by ignorant fools who watch the HEC Final and base their whole opinions on NH rugby on the whole basis of that 80 minutes because they're too stingy to afford the Rugby Channel. Just watch some NH club rugby for a season and then make your mind up.

And actually, you CAN see NH Club rugby in Japan, either at bars via a Sky Sports UK feed or via Sky Japan

 

[Sir Speedy]

That is the point I am making, dimwit.
[/b]

No, the point you made was no-one outside of England cares for the Guinness Premiership. Nice attempt at trying to get yourself out of that hole though. And if you really don't know a single team in the Guinness Premiership then, well...what can I say?

 

[Prestwick]

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That is the point I am making, dimwit.
[/b]

No, the point you made was no-one outside of England cares for the Guinness Premiership. Nice attempt at trying to get yourself out of that hole though. And if you really don't know a single team in the Guinness Premiership then, well...what can I say?
[/b][/quote]

EDIT: And OH MY GOD WHY ARE WE EVEN HAVING THIS CONVERSATION! WHY DO I EVEN CARE?! England sent more or less a full strength team this year (injuries permitting, unless you guys down there are going to whinge about why Danny Cipriani didn't play down under in a wheel chair) and will send a full strength team next year. Ireland, Wales and Scotland likewise.

Punishing everyone else because the French Clubs can't be bothered to release players is simply wrong. FACT. We're not in the wrong here, your Union officials are.

This topic isn't about the Guinness Premiership or player burnout, its about the why the NZRU just doesn't get NH Rugby works.

 

[Sir Speedy]

[/b]

 

[smartcooky]

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That is the point I am making, dimwit.
[/b]

No, the point you made was no-one outside of England cares for the Guinness Premiership. Nice attempt at trying to get yourself out of that hole though. And if you really don't know a single team in the Guinness Premiership then, well...what can I say?
[/b][/quote]

You're a ******** Speedy. Read my post. Where exactly did I say I couldn't name a GP team. I could name all of them, and all the National Division One teams as well. And most of the Top 14 and Pro D2 teams, and the Magners League teams. When I was a boy, my father used to take me to Twickenham to watch Harlequins play before they moved to the Stoop in the early 1960's. Can't remember what the competititon was called.

What I am saying is, MOST RUGBY FANS outside England (OK, I stand corrected, Europe is what I should have said) could not tell you anything about club rugby in Europe, but they DO follow International Rugby.

 

[Bullitt]

Just watch some NH club rugby for a season and then make your mind up.[/b]

Sadly these days ever since the first rant of John O'Niell which has brainwaqshed most of the mindless majority down there, asking that of somebody of Southern Hemisphere orientation with his attitude these days is a bit like asking a league or football fan to try watching Union in case they actually enjoy it.

Chances are they will, but the sheer ******* stubborness and "holier-then-thou" mindset means they never will.

I do honestly believe that if somebody in the SH is caught watching NH rugby during these current 'troubled' times, they would be publicity berched.

 

[Sir Speedy]

Oh I'm sorry, I stand corrected. You said most people outside of Europe couldn't name a SH side. My bad. That makes it so much better.
I guess the only reason us NH'ers know anything about SH rugby is because Sky Sports broadcast everything. I tell you, if we had to pay to watch the S14/Currie Cup etc then most of us wouldn't bother, so it's understandable that Club rugby ratings are so low...

You're a ******** Speedy.
[/b]

 

[Vambo]

@ smartcooky
Don't you think the plans to play the S14 teams is actually a very good one though? I do.

Playing a 2nd string touring side is to no ones benefit but the AB's playing the Reds in front of a full house in Brisbane (for example) would be very beneficial to growing the Reds as a brand and also promotes the S14.

 

[smartcooky]

@ smartcooky
Don't you think the plans to play the S14 teams is actually a very good one though? I do.

Playing a 2nd string touring side is to no ones benefit but the AB's playing the Reds in front of a full house in Brisbane (for example) would be very beneficial to growing the Reds as a brand and also promotes the S14.




[/b]

Yes I do. I think the AB's would have had a much better workout playing the Waratahs and the Brumbies and they did playing England, and the Wallabies certainly would have benefited.much more from playing the Crusaders and the Blues.

That was supposed to be a very good England side, so were were told, minus about 7 players due to injury. In the end, both matches were a walk in the park.