Aviva Premiership Round 8

[Draggs]

16-9 to Leicester right now.
Not the highest quality match right now, but it has had its moments.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ford having a nightmare from the boot!

 

[Tony Manx]

Best thing of the match so far is watching the ref.........best player on the park! He is workiing well with the assistants. I agree with the yellow card for Lamb too!!

Think I would be worried if I was a Saints man about their real paucity of attacking talent on this display- is this because the opposition have found the Pisi boys out?

 

[Draggs]

Ryan Lamb is not very bright.

 

[j'nuh]

This game: the offload vs. the turnover.

 

[j'nuh]

Quins deserved to win, but Barnes really really really needs to do one.

 

[Nobblynick]

I hope when I watch the game back that Wayne Barnes can't have been as bad as he looked from the stands......?

 

[j'nuh]

It's sad that a lot of the discussion after the game is about him. He never let the game flow. Must admit, there was far too much indiscipline from Gloucester to let it happen, but he missed so many things in the game, blew up often for the wrong things, and I haven't seen the scrum officiated as bad since the laws on them changed.

From an England perspective, on the Burns watch, a major plus from today was the further evidence that Burns is now a great kicker. In the past, it may have been said that his penalty kicking wasn't good enough for England, but he's clearly worked on it a lot. He got (IIRC) a 100% kicking rate today - it was probably what kept us in the match. He's the highest point scorer in the league. He is scoring 0.21 points a minute, tied with Charlie Hodgson, but ahead of Nick Evans (0.19) and way ahead of his England competitors, Flood and Farrell (0.14 and 0.12 respectively). Last season, Burns scored 0.14 points per minute. He should be somewhere in the mid-80s in terms of kicking percentages. And it isn't just luck - he's got great technique, most of them being kicked with ease. Obviously, Burns has shown great flair in attack. I can't wait until he gets to play in the backline with the likes of Tuilagi and Foden.

Perhaps the one area he needs to work on is his out-of-hand tactical kicking. He started the season really well in this respect, putting teams under a lot of pressure with some great kicks to the corner. That said, since the winds have picked up speed, I think it's getting to be less viable as an option. The best kind of kick for windy conditions like today (and windier days) is the high ball with enough weight and distance so that your team can challenge for it, and it's something I think he'll need to practice. If he can get good at it, having speedsters like May, Sharples and JSD to challenge for it will make this a potent tactic for Gloucester. Get this right, and Lancaster will have absolutely no justification for not picking Burns for the EPS in January.

On another note, Ben Morgan didn't have his best game today. Perhaps Lancaster is right to be picking Waldrom instead. In the loose, Morgan is probably the best number 8 in the country. Great feet, pretty fast, and people bounce off him when trying to tackle him. In defense though, he should be hitting his opponents harder and driving them backwards. He doesn't use his weight effectively enough I feel.

Also, imo Karl Dickson edges Youngs for the third-choice scrum-half spot. Youngs does some good things, but I think needs a bit of time out of the international arena to concentrate on his overall game, and K Dickson had a really good game today. I've been impressed with him in the past too. Between Care, Dickson (x2), Youngs, Haydn Thomas, Simpson, Robson and Spencer, England have some great depth at scrum-half for the next few years.

 

[Feicarsinn]

What irritates me about rugby discussions these days is this massive passing of the blame onto the ref. To me, you should treat the ref like any other condition you can't control. For example, the weather. If the weather is bad you can't blame it for your loss, you blame your inability to adapt to conditions. Same situation should apply to refereeing if you're complaining about the ref after a loss then you weren't good enough. Simple as.

 

[psychic duck]

What irritates me about rugby discussions these days is this massive passing of the blame onto the ref. To me, you should treat the ref like any other condition you can't control. For example, the weather. If the weather is bad you can't blame it for your loss, you blame your inability to adapt to conditions. Same situation should apply to refereeing if you're complaining about the ref after a loss then you weren't good enough. Simple as.

So Australia have no excuse for losing to Scotland then?

 

[j'nuh]

What irritates me about rugby discussions these days is this massive passing of the blame onto the ref. To me, you should treat the ref like any other condition you can't control. For example, the weather. If the weather is bad you can't blame it for your loss, you blame your inability to adapt to conditions. Same situation should apply to refereeing if you're complaining about the ref after a loss then you weren't good enough. Simple as.

You're seriously saying that when things like this happen, the ref shouldn't take any blame whatsoever? (I know it's rugby league, but whatever.) The original decision for offside which caused the penalty was perhaps forgivable, but when you look at how blatantly offside Leeds were at the penalty kick, and how there's no way they could have been onside and got to the ball, how the ref didn't even go to the TMO, how the other two touch judges didn't even have a word with the ref, then you honestly believe that the ref(s) shouldn't take any blame for this result? You can say that the Bulls weren't good enough to have won, but the fact is that they had already pretty much won. In league, if you're in the lead in the 79th minute, in possession with six phases, and 40 meters out, you've won the game. It was only for the referees making two horrible mistakes that cost the game for the Bulls.

Today, something that happened that I'm annoyed about led to a 10-point swing. The Glos hooker (Edmonds) was playing winger in the backline and kicked it on into the corner. He wouldn't have scored a try since the fullback was too close, but a Quins player (Wallace) checked him anyway. Wallace didn't hold his run - he deliberately barged into Edmonds and sent him to the floor (which is a professional foul and he could have been yellowed). It was as blatant as a penalty could get on the field, but the touch judge didn't notice it, despite being stood a meter from it, because he was ball-watching. (Not even sure what the ref was doing.) It was so close to half-time that even if Gloucester didn't sink the penalty, the ball would be so deep into the Quins half that they would have been unlikely to have scored a try. Instead, what happened was that the Quins fullback kicked it back, and a Gloucester player (Martyn Thomas) threw an interception try, which IIRC was converted. I agree that Thomas wasn't good enough to have done something that silly, but the point is that play should never have gotten that far. What should have been 3 points to Gloucester, ended 7 points to the Quins, because two referees missed a blatant foul. Whether this lost the game for Gloucester, it's hard to tell. Gloucester lost by 3 points, but perhaps Quins would have come back harder in the second half had the first half ended the way it should have. So I won't say that it cost Gloucester the game. What I will say is that it had a big effect on the game's outcome (as a 10-point swing will do) because the refs took their eye off the game.

And what makes you think that refs cannot take criticism? In any other job, people get told off, even fired, for making mistakes on a regular basis. Why should refereeing be the one job where you get to be free from criticism? I agree that it's silly for people to be blaming referees for a few small mistakes. Sometimes it's impossible for referees to make the right call - trouble on the other side of the scrum, offenses that happen in the middle of a ruck etc. But that doesn't mean that a referee should get complete immunity from criticism when they have bad games.

I'm not even saying that Quins profited from Barnes' bad game. In fact, I daresay that Quins may have gotten a bonus point had Barnes had a better game. The fact is that he missed far too many wrongdoings, particularly in the scrum. He let collapsed scrums continue (which is dangerous might I add), he let players get away with improper binding (mostly Glos players tbf), he even failed to recognise a player losing their binding and keeping themselves upright by putting a hand on the floor, despite being on that side of the scrum! He was awful at officiating the breakdown too. He also often blew up for non-offenses. A quick read of the Harlequins forum shows that they were upset with the ref too, so this isn't completely blaming the referee for the result - more for how the game panned out.



On a side note, I think Easter deserves an England call-up. He may or may not have been the form England no8 in the past, but he's maturing very well, and has been way above all the other England number 8s this season. He could yet make the 2015 WC (Shaw managed 38...), and there's still a few six nations to happen between then. Have Morgan/Waldrom in the squad to come in, and they may usurp him within the next couple of years, but the national squad doesn't get anything from us ignoring those in form.

 

[Nobblynick]

What irritates me about rugby discussions these days is this massive passing of the blame onto the ref. To me, you should treat the ref like any other condition you can't control. For example, the weather. If the weather is bad you can't blame it for your loss, you blame your inability to adapt to conditions. Same situation should apply to refereeing if you're complaining about the ref after a loss then you weren't good enough. Simple as.

It's not about complaining after having lost. Both sets of fans were upset with some of the decisions, and rightly so imo. Granted its very easy to get cross with the Ref when your team lose, but on this occasion where you have a Glos and a Quins fan being objective then the discussion is valid.

 

[Tony Manx]

Unfortunately, Referees are there to be shot at and they realise that. Also, as one who can be very critical very often, I feel that particular refs have what some consider a bad game and that then gets dug up and dug up as "evidence" that they are just useless by someone who has a different opinion of a particular ruling.

I think Barnes has suffered from this since the 2007 RWC match where he got pilloried, rightly or wrongly, by the NZ fans and it is amazing how often this game crops up when Barnes is now talked about.

I do think he has not been the best referee, and when he started I felt he would be one of the best, of late but do not think that he is as bad as many seems to believe.

As regards his interpretation of the scrum, I do not think anyone can possibly judge what is going on totally correctly at all times in there and, if they could, they could not ping every offence committed in just one setting of the scrum else we would never have any ball in play time, just a series of penalties and free kicks. I think Barnes tries to be fair to, what he considers, the better side at a particular scrummage where there are multiple offences in order to keep the game flowing, an attitude I would encourage.

In the particular instance quoted where there should have been a possible Gloucs penalty rather than a Quins try - I would just say that this criticism would not have arisen had not Quins scored almost immeidately and also that it was more the linesman call, as it was only 5 metres from the touchline.

I also agree with Peat and Feicarsinn, if you blame the ref, you were not good enough!! Goodness, I am getting old, I am sticking up for a ref!

 

[Teh Mite]

While ******** celebrity referees like Barnes, Owens and Walsh continue to be in the sport and dictate matches, acting as though their job is to be a leveller and director instead of an observer, matches will always and forever be spoiled by refs. These people are given a position of authority which becomes a supiriority complex, before you know it the matches they are in charge of are only about them instead of the rugby players.

 

[Tony Manx]

Classic give a dog a bad name...........I was an enormously strong critic of Walsh but he is THE most improved ref. He was definitely a show pony who dictated the course of a match but I do not believe that is the case now and would be happy to have him ref every match I watch...

Owens has a way about him that is a bit pompous but I do believe he is one of the best refs and do not thiink Barnes tries to be a "celebrity" in anyway.

Perchance you have chosen some poor examples for your agrument!

 

[Teh Mite]

We'll agree to disagree in that case. All 3 of them make me cringe before a game even starts.

 

[racingmetrofan]

why are wasps disguised as leeds?!

 

[j'nuh]

As regards his interpretation of the scrum, I do not think anyone can possibly judge what is going on totally correctly at all times in there and, if they could, they could not ping every offence committed in just one setting of the scrum else we would never have any ball in play time, just a series of penalties and free kicks. I think Barnes tries to be fair to, what he considers, the better side at a particular scrummage where there are multiple offences in order to keep the game flowing, an attitude I would encourage.

In some cases, I see what you mean. Sometimes it's hard to tell who stood up first, who went down first etc. But there were times when the scrum completely collapsed and Barnes wouldn't blow his whistle. A collapsed scrum doesn't have to be penalised, but it has to be reset. It's dangerous to let a collapsed scrum continue. And if you miss that 6 of the biggest men on the field are now with their faces in the mud, then that's poor.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Saracens - Wasps is on ESPN now. Score is 14-11 lead for Sarries but former Shark Alistair Hargreaves is off with a yellow just before halftime.

Penalty converted and it's a tie now. 14-14. Nick Robinson equalizing for Wasps

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Really like watching Wasps - they're the complete mirror image of Saracens.