Ban the haka ?

[Big Ewis]

Cultural diversity is the best bloody thing about the modern age. That I can watch American tv, eat Italian/Indian food, play rugby with people from SANZAR, meet people of all these different nationalities at uni, walk through an area predominantly of another nationality in my own city thereby experiencing a microcosm of a world outside England in England, the 6N, the Heineken Cup, the super bowl, chatting with a forum which is 80-90 per cent not English, gaming with people from anywhere in the world... cultural diversity does bloody work.

btw, if the haka was a local, indigenous thing, then it wouldn't be the symbol of the biggest interest of a nation! It's like saying that only pagans should be able to enjoy Christmas.

You're talking about smt entirely different. European, judo-christian cultures mix with no problem, but that isn't cultural diversity or at least the one I'm referring to. I myself am an all-the-way product of 'diversity', but not in a way that is ambiguous or worse, problematic.
It's interesting you would only mention parts of the Western world, like that's all that exists out of this entire planet (Indian food; the exception).

And Christmas IS a pagan practice, as a side note. (smiley face - in case it doesn't appear again...)
And obviously dude, they've made it into something more TV friendly and commercial now (the haka), but I am obviously referring to what it is inherently.....

 

[TRF_heineken]

You're talking about smt entirely different. European, judo-christian cultures mix with no problem, but that isn't cultural diversity or at least the one I'm referring to. I myself am an all-the-way product of 'diversity', but not in a way that is ambiguous or worse, problematic.
It's interesting you would only mention parts of the Western world, like that's all that exists out of this entire planet (Indian food; the exception).

And Christmas IS a pagan practice, as a side note. (smiley face - in case it doesn't appear again...)
And obviously dude, they've made it into something more TV friendly and commercial now (the haka), but I am obviously referring to what it is inherently.....

WTF is smt??

Okay, let's take Eastern Culture then... I love sushi!!

And what about MMA?? It uses Martial Arts (Karate, Kung Fu, Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai) as it's core mixed with Western Cultures Wrestling, Boxing and Ground and Pound...

Why are you making the Haka to every damn discussion as the exclusion to the rule??

I am from South Africa, and based on your assessment, our indigenous cultures (ie, the black community) are different than the White/Indian/Asian community. Yes, but because of cultural appreciation and becoming ONE nation with the diversity, we all appreciate certain facets of each other's culture. Nearly every white family has adopted a traditional way of making pap (flour based porridge). it's as traditional as can be.

Or are these examples not to the standard of french morons??

 

[big ginger 8]

I have to ask about one incident not what happened after but this one part of it, sorry for this.

In 2005 when BO'D threw the grass up was that respectful or disrespectful because I've heard different reports, can a New Zealander please clarify for me?

 

[nickdnz]

No I don't, I'm an adult with free will and free thought, I can embrace whatever the heck I want. If there is a cultural practice carried out by a group in Canada that I find reprehensible I don't have to embrace it. (Note that I don't put the haka into this category)

Sure. You have the right to boycott any cultural practice. But the implications of boycotting something like the haka would be equivelent to burning the New Zealand flag from a Maori person. The implication would be rejecting an important cultural practice that informs a united multi-cultural identity. And the realistic conclusion would probably mean being ommited from the All Blacks - just as it would be if Piri Weepu burned the NZ flag.

Someone said once he thought ppl of direct European descent (well, white NZer's basically !) shouldn't do the haka because it has nothing to do with who they are, as it is a local, indigenous practice they're not related to in the slightest way. That it is hypocritical in a sense that they would adopt this alien thing to their own culture.
You can understand where he's coming from there, but obviously it's not exactly "with the times"; that being the illusion that everything is tolerable, everything is okay, and the myth that cultural diversity works. Because it is just that, a myth.

Of course that doesn't prevent all NZ'ers from practicing the haka, it's just some Rugby routine thing, nothing of political proportions...I'm just rather discussing AROUND the haka, as opposed to discussing *it*.

People say a lot of stupid things. It's no different to saying a white person has no buisness owning a Sushi shop. The haka has become part of the culture of New Zealand. The country is not a very old one, and the haka has been performed by European New Zealanders for nearly as long as they've been here - it is something which we have adopted into our culture, in a similar way England has been influenced by the Roman Empire, the French language etc.

I'm getting the impression that at heart you're a bigot. The solutions to problems which are not your own, is either separatism or total cultural assimilation. Finding a middle grounds where everyone feels represented for their own cultural history as well as a greater national identity is unpalatable to you, and I pity you for it.

 

[LittleGuy]

WTF is smt??

Okay, let's take Eastern Culture then... I love sushi!!

And what about MMA?? It uses Martial Arts (Karate, Kung Fu, Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai) as it's core mixed with Western Cultures Wrestling, Boxing and Ground and Pound...

Why are you making the Haka to every damn discussion as the exclusion to the rule??

I am from South Africa, and based on your assessment, our indigenous cultures (ie, the black community) are different than the White/Indian/Asian community. Yes, but because of cultural appreciation and becoming ONE nation with the diversity, we all appreciate certain facets of each other's culture. Nearly every white family has adopted a traditional way of making pap (flour based porridge). it's as traditional as can be.

Or are these examples not to the standard of french morons??

Liking sushi makes you as apreciative of Eastern cultures as standing in a garage makes me a car.....there are probably tons of Asian people who can't ****ing stand sushi.

Which leads me to one of my favourite(and by favourite I mean utterly despise as it's such a laughable concept that flies in the face of history) things about cultural relativism....the boxing in of people who aren't from cultures such as our own, as if they have no diversity of opinion amongst themselves either, nor would there culture have ever changed on it's own if they'd not been met by other cultures(European cultures in particular get the blame for this). I obviously haven't asked every single Moari or Pacific Islander this question but I'm sure somewhere, somehow there is at least ONE guy who probably dosen't either like the Haka in general or feels that it shouldn't be used before every rugby test.

 

[smartcooky]

I have to ask about one incident not what happened after but this one part of it, sorry for this.

In 2005 when BO'D threw the grass up was that respectful or disrespectful because I've heard different reports, can a New Zealander please clarify for me?

You've probably been reading the the Daily Flail or the Mirror, or some other gutter press if you are getting the idea that it was disrespectful. This is what the Telegraph had to say about it...

[TEXTAREA]British and Irish Lions captain Brian O'Driscoll showed nerves of steel picking up a blade of grass, throwing it in the air - symbolising the picking up of the traditional white feather. The All Blacks viewed it as a lack of disrespect and within a minute of the Test match O'Driscoll's tour was over following a shocking spear tackle by captain Tana Umaga[/TEXTAREA]

Connecting the Haka response with what happened to him later is typical British gutter press inflammatory tactics, written by English middle class, white so-called journalists who know little if anything about the world at large, and who spend far too much time interviewing their own laptops, and not enough time going out at actually talking to the people who know.

The first mistake they make is connect in the picking up of a white feather with the Haka. This is wrong. The picking up white feather comes after the wero, an individual challenge that is the third stage of a pōwhiri (pronounced "poh-fir-ee") which is a ceremony of welcome for a honoured guest onto a Marae (a traditional Maori meeting place). It involves dancing and singing; it has nothing whatsoever to do with Haka

The second mistake is to think that what O'Driscoll did was disrespectful. It wasn't. It wass his response and he chose it. If I were to guess, I would say that his response was try to show a "you don't scare me" attitude, and that is perfectly fine, that is an acceptance of the challenge. I have read in some places that Sir Clive Woodward sought to disarm the Haka, and asked Maori Elders to come up with a fitting response. If so, I can't believe that any Kaumatua would advice him to do that.

 

[big ginger 8]

You've probably been reading the the Daily Flail or the Mirror, or some other gutter press if you are getting the idea that it was disrespectful. This is what the Telegraph had to say about it...

[TEXTAREA]British and Irish Lions captain Brian O'Driscoll showed nerves of steel picking up a blade of grass, throwing it in the air - symbolising the picking up of the traditional white feather. The All Blacks viewed it as a lack of disrespect and within a minute of the Test match O'Driscoll's tour was over following a shocking spear tackle by captain Tana Umaga[/TEXTAREA]

Connecting the Haka response with what happened to him later is typical British gutter press inflammatory tactics, written by English middle class, white so-called journalists who know little if anything about the world at large, and who spend far too much time interviewing their own laptops, and not enough time going out at actually talking to the people who know.

The first mistake they make is connect in the picking up of a white feather with the Haka. This is wrong. The picking up white feather comes after the wero, an individual challenge that is the third stage of a pōwhiri (pronounced "poh-fir-ee") which is a ceremony of welcome for a honoured guest onto a Marae (a traditional Maori meeting place). It involves dancing and singing; it has nothing whatsoever to do with Haka

The second mistake is to think that what O'Driscoll did was disrespectful. It wasn't. It wass his response and he chose it. If I were to guess, I would say that his response was try to show a "you don't scare me" attitude, and that is perfectly fine, that is an acceptance of the challenge. I have read in some places that Sir Clive Woodward sought to disarm the Haka, and asked Maori Elders to come up with a fitting response. If so, I can't believe that any Kaumatua would advice him to do that.

Well as I'm Irish I don't read any of those papers...

I have merely heard people say different stuff about it, thanks for clarifying it for me.

 

[Shaggy]

Well, I'm back after a few weeks away ... just in time for another "Ban the Haka thread" ... did I miss the "Ritchie's a cheat thread" already

 

[admartian]

Oh here we go again.

I've said this before, I'm all for other nations to come with their own thing. France can raise a white flag or something...? I keed I keed! :snicker *high fives Americans* 8)

Well, I'm back after a few weeks away ... just in time for another "Ban the Haka thread" ... did I miss the "Ritchie's a cheat thread" already

I'll get onto it.

Sure. You have the right to boycott any cultural practice. But the implications of boycotting something like the haka would be equivelent to burning the New Zealand flag from a Maori person. The implication would be rejecting an important cultural practice that informs a united multi-cultural identity. And the realistic conclusion would probably mean being ommited from the All Blacks - just as it would be if Piri Weepu burned the NZ flag.



People say a lot of stupid things. It's no different to saying a white person has no buisness owning a Sushi shop. The haka has become part of the culture of New Zealand. The country is not a very old one, and the haka has been performed by European New Zealanders for nearly as long as they've been here - it is something which we have adopted into our culture, in a similar way England has been influenced by the Roman Empire, the French language etc.

I'm getting the impression that at heart you're a bigot. The solutions to problems which are not your own, is either separatism or total cultural assimilation. Finding a middle grounds where everyone feels represented for their own cultural history as well as a greater national identity is unpalatable to you, and I pity you for it.

Pretty much spot on.

That line of thinking leaves no room for assimilation. I guess English shouldn't have so many Latin, Spanish, French words, New Caledonia shouldn't be allowed to speak French, and no one should use zero apart from those of Babylonian descent.

 

[Big Ewis]

did I miss the "Ritchie's a cheat thread" already

no no....it's unanimous, no need for words, a lot less an entire thread !

Oh here we go again.

I've said this before, I'm all for other nations to come with their own thing. France can raise a white flag or something...? I keed I keed! :snicker *high fives Americans*

I like the South Park reference.....and France should....play some bal musette with accordions (??). That oughta scare the crap out of them Maoris for sure intimidate the living shoot out of em.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I think the New Zealanders have every right to have the Haka on their own patch, and I wouldn't disrespect them by saying that it should be banned altogether. Its a part of their culture and something that the players and fans love, so at home its mandatory for him to have it against whoever they're playing. Away though I have a different opinion. I don't see why they should get special treatment when they're playing in another teams backyard, wasting time and gaining a psychological at times with the Haka. I know the majority of the other teasm that are playing he AB's respect the Haka, but why should they have to listen to it? There under no obligation to do so, and the New zealand dont deserve any special treatment, irregardless of how much their dances are tied in with rugby culture. Irish dancing is a big part of Irish culture, why cant our players players dance a little jig to form our own tradition lol

Also, another thing, nothing ****** me off more than when people have a cry and a whinge about how certain teams disrespect the Haka by challenging it, whether it be a Willie Anderson or Richard Cockerill getting up in their faces, Wales standing their ground and not moving from the spot, or France forming an arrow as a sign of acceptance. Its a war challenge essentially FFS, and players should be allowed to respond to it as they feel.

Anyways thats just my two cents, dont want to offend anybody.

Interestingly the haka never used to take place for home tests, it was only done on tours. I'm not sure when that changed?

You're sort of arguing against nobody here. If the host nation told NZ, Samoa, Tonga etc "no haka allowed", I'm pretty sure the ABs wouldn't mind.. eg the Welsh game they just did it in the dressing room. And also, I agree (as do most NZers) about not having to face it, or challenging it. Teams should do whatever they want I reckon, I loved when Cockerill got up in Norm Hewitt's face, the French arrow, the Welsh stare down etc they were all great. Equally, I had no problems when Aussie went and passed the ball around in the 22 while the haka was on in a test in the 90's. Nobody (other than people in the IRB) thinks otherwise so we are all basically in agreement.

Conclusion of the thread opinions from what I can gather: if both parties are happy for a haka to take place, it should go ahead. If one party doesn't want it, then don't do it. If it does take place, receiving team should respond however they like.

 

[Shaggy]

no no....it's unanimous, no need for words, a lot less an entire thread !



I like the South Park reference.....and France should....play some bal musette with accordions (??). That oughta scare the crap out of them Maoris for sure intimidate the living shoot out of em.

LOL ... yes, I've heard that ... I think he cheats most when he's doing the Haka ... (how come I can't put a smiley face here)

 

[LittleGuy]

Sure. You have the right to boycott any cultural practice. But the implications of boycotting something like the haka would be equivelent to burning the New Zealand flag from a Maori person. The implication would be rejecting an important cultural practice that informs a united multi-cultural identity. And the realistic conclusion would probably mean being ommited from the All Blacks - just as it would be if Piri Weepu burned the NZ flag.



People say a lot of stupid things. It's no different to saying a white person has no buisness owning a Sushi shop. The haka has become part of the culture of New Zealand. The country is not a very old one, and the haka has been performed by European New Zealanders for nearly as long as they've been here - it is something which we have adopted into our culture, in a similar way England has been influenced by the Roman Empire, the French language etc.

I'm getting the impression that at heart you're a bigot. The solutions to problems which are not your own, is either separatism or total cultural assimilation. Finding a middle grounds where everyone feels represented for their own cultural history as well as a greater national identity is unpalatable to you, and I pity you for it.

I don't think thats a very good example, burning a flag is an active act of direspect, while not participating in something is a neutral lack of action, standing behind Weepu and mocking him while performing the haka would indeed be as awful as burning the NZ flag and I would have no problem with someone being taken to task for it. If a NZ player had a well reasoned argument for not participating in the haka....perhaps as an example they thought the throat slashing gesture was inappropriate and were not participating until it was removed. I would hope that he would at least have a chance to explain himself(though with todays climate he would most likely be shouted down and called a bigot or idiot in some hysterical rush for a moral high ground).

Likewise if a Moari player didn't want to accept something like bringing the flag into the stadium and passed that responsibility to someone else or merely stood silent or to the side for the anthem( I remember in MLB a player for the Blue Jays stopped standing for America the Beautiful at one point because he thought that the post 9/11 reasoning behind the song had run it's course and he was also opposed to the US wars...he took some heat at first but ultmiately people respected what was at least a reasoned arguement...no matter what side of the debate they were on.) Than I hope everyone would at least listen to him.

People have plenty of reasons to not do things, and in fact the ethnic backgrounds of the examples I used could be entirely reversed in a very plausible situation. Respecting and tolerating something are much different than forcing people to be an active participant or having to "embrace" something. The haka is probably a horrible issue to have this more enveloping and encompassing disscussion on since it's a fairly benign thing to do, and most who wouldn't jump to participate would probably join in anyway after some gentle prodding by teamates, or do a less intense performance off to the side while allowing those more passionate to take the lead.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Well, I'm back after a few weeks away ... just in time for another "Ban the Haka thread" ... did I miss the "Ritchie's a cheat thread" already

I still get a laugh out of this

 

[Draggs]

All this haka talk reminded me of this charming video:

 

[InsaneAsylum]

hahahah words cannot describe

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i seriously dont think we have given enough thought to banning the scrum either....

 

[Draggs]

i seriously dont think we have given enough thought to banning the scrum either....

Completely eliminates the scrum issue!
You should run the IRB.

 

[admartian]

i seriously dont think we have given enough thought to banning the scrum either....

This guy!

 

[smartcooky]

i seriously dont think we have given enough thought to banning the scrum either....

You one them pooftah Aussies are ya? Scrums too tuff for ya, aye?

YA POOFTAH!!!