Ban the haka ?

[j'nuh]

I think the haka should go back to basics:

 

[LittleGuy]

Deleted post.

 

[LittleGuy]

That's similar to the one rugby dump had on their site....

 

[smartcooky]

Not be a party pooper but I've always hated when our players(and other Tier two sides to be fair) have come out and said this...it always comes off to me as a "we are happy to be here as tourists" mentality to the game. I know I'd probably feel the same but it very much falls into the Tier Two sides as amateurs out for a lark against the mighty AB's it's hard for us to get taken seriously by the Tier Ones and this while I'm probably reading too much into it makes our guys look smaller on the big stage.

Edit: Anyways I think this thread has run it's course, as smartcooky said the subject has been beaten to death on forums since before time and most of the arguments I've seen pro and con aren't even really arguments. I don't see any need to ban it, nor do I think it's anywhere near as important to rugby as many make it out to be, nor do I think it would actually even be missed that much if it dissapeared.(Does anyone NOT get into rugby games where it isn't used?)

Sometimes though, the oddest things can be part of, or significant in a persons memory of an event.

Say "1987 Rugby World Cup", to most kiwis, and Michael Jones try against Italy - the first ever by a player in a RWC, might come to mind, or John Kirwan's length of the field effort in the same match, or his try in the corner against France in the final, or David Kirk lifting the trophy with All Black non-playing captain Andy Dalton looking embarrassed and like he wanted to be somewhere else. But when I think of that tournament, two completely different things come to mind for me...

Firstly, the match between Wales and Tonga. It was at the Palmerston North Showgrounds. Why do I remember that match? Because I was there (one of only two matches I went to) and it was the only time I can recall Wales ever playing in green jerseys!!!

Secondly, the match between Zimbabwe and Romania (the other match I went to) and 20 year old Richard Tsimba's spectacular diving try for Zimabawe (watch from 2:03)

 

[Tribesmen-ce-123]

I was just thinking about this the other day, and my thoughts on it are as follows:

I think the New Zealanders have every right to have the Haka on their own patch, and I wouldn't disrespect them by saying that it should be banned altogether. Its a part of their culture and something that the players and fans love, so at home its mandatory for him to have it against whoever they're playing. Away though I have a different opinion. I don't see why they should get special treatment when they're playing in another teams backyard, wasting time and gaining a psychological at times with the Haka. I know the majority of the other teasm that are playing he AB's respect the Haka, but why should they have to listen to it? There under no obligation to do so, and the New zealand dont deserve any special treatment, irregardless of how much their dances are tied in with rugby culture. Irish dancing is a big part of Irish culture, why cant our players players dance a little jig to form our own tradition lol

Also, another thing, nothing ****** me off more than when people have a cry and a whinge about how certain teams disrespect the Haka by challenging it, whether it be a Willie Anderson or Richard Cockerill getting up in their faces, Wales standing their ground and not moving from the spot, or France forming an arrow as a sign of acceptance. Its a war challenge essentially FFS, and players should be allowed to respond to it as they feel.

Anyways thats just my two cents, dont want to offend anybody.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Got a silly argument going in stead of discussion again, oh well !... my curse on this forum.
and well nick, what can I tell you, if I get childish responses, I get childish responses, what do you want me to call them ? I'm not degrading them, I'm stating what they are. And there is no BS from me, my position is clear and it is what it is, and there's certainly nothing wrong with merely being for the ban of haka and pointing out precisely why. It's simply called discussion. Ppl make it look like this horrible or unsustainable position, which is downright strange given that I've extended rational thought to why I take that position...
And again, I honestly read your post and would like to call it BS (for there are many elements that prompt me to) but just won't...yet you won't hesitate to call mine BS straight away. It's just not cool man, what can I tell you ? You'll do it even more if I start saying it's - you know, the magical word - childish.
Oh and, "KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE HAKA", that's just funny man ! Ooh, my !! Sorry, sorry ! I guess I haven't read the ONE paragraph there on wikipedia !...so much to learn there, silly me !

As for your experience, that's fine man. But it's not an argument, it's just some anecdote about the experience of haka.

TRF_Selim: you're downright wrong about everything you've said. If proven wrong, I'll go with the better opinion. I've done it on these very pages in fact, but you wouldn't even care about that, you're more interested in blaming me right now, evidently.
And how my being proven wrong relevant at all to this thread, I'm still waiting on strong arguments to do that ?! You're just blabbering about an idea of me that is 100% concocted and fits your comfortable fictitious side of the story. I'm not interested in that if you're blind as a mole and will see what you want, and won't see what's far more complex and real.

As for my take on the DISCUSSION AT HAND - I just don't think the haka should be allowed, and I don't care if I get such hostile and at times downright violent replies - for the aforementioned reasons. It's an advantage to a one side only, unless you're Tonga and co.

I mean, think about it this way:
right now it's this perfectly engraved practice, on the field as in the collective imagination of the Ruby fan.
But as a start, imagine being this guy on the England squad way back at the start of the 20th century or so (whenever the haka came about): you sing your national anthem with pride, observe theirs calmly, anticipating the game, minding your own business.....OKAY ! Game time right ?! Awww man, let's DO THI....oh...wait, what are they doin ? Oh there's a war dance ??....okay, I suppose because it's on their soil and a special occasion....oh, what ?? They'll be doing this EVERY SINGLE TEST MATCH ?!!.....mmmmmmyeah but what do we get in return ? Why would any team have smt MORE ? We should all have the exact same number of everything, 15 players each, one head coach, 1 try line each and well, one anthem as an honorary display of patriotism...no ??
NO !! Haka is good !! Haka is tradition !! Good, haka !! Goooood !
Plus, the psychological advantage: how ON EARTH do you justify that ?!
- oh yeah...the AB just simply start with a psychological advantage....*leaning against the wall, hands in pockets, looking into the room with no expression on face*


That's the feeling I get. And for the love of God stop insulting ME personally peeeeoooopohhl !!!

This post pretty much sums up what a retard you are...

You start threads, which will obviously grab people's attention, as it is controversial. Then without bearing facts, or know something about the matter at hand, you go ahead and make an argument.

As smartcooky has pointed out, argumentum ad nauseam!!

How about, doing the research first, knowing what you talk about and then make an argument.

If you were my opposing council in a court case, your entire defence would be ripped to shreds!! and pointing fingers won't do you any good, everyone here are almost in unison that you are in fact a moron!!

You are a mixture of sigesige00, sifplay and icemn!

 

[smartcooky]

Also, another thing, nothing ****** me off more than when people have a cry and a whinge about how certain teams disrespect the Haka by challenging it, whether it be a Willie Anderson or Richard Cockerill getting up in their faces, Wales standing their ground and not moving from the spot, or France forming an arrow as a sign of acceptance. Its a war challenge essentially FFS, and players should be allowed to respond to it as they feel.

Anyways thats just my two cents, dont want to offend anybody.

Thing is, you wont find any RUGBY people or MAORI whinging about it, you'll find certain bounty-bars in the media who think they speak for both but who actually speak for neither

 

[Sam Owen]

Is it ban the Haka season is it?..lol

Hakas been around in NZ Rugby for a long while, probably longer than most of us here on TRF have been alive. You can't just go and change that man (not that you can).

Id like to play any team at their best and if a Haka does that for them then do it before we get it on. Never would I go and take something away from a side just so I could feel better about my chances of winning. Just last week we played a stacked side, none of my team mates complained. Just bring it.

Why not ban smoking, ban guns, ban war...but ban the Haka??...ooookkkaay

 

[nickdnz]

I was just thinking about this the other day, and my thoughts on it are as follows:

I think the New Zealanders have every right to have the Haka on their own patch, and I wouldn't disrespect them by saying that it should be banned altogether. Its a part of their culture and something that the players and fans love, so at home its mandatory for him to have it against whoever they're playing. Away though I have a different opinion. I don't see why they should get special treatment when they're playing in another teams backyard, wasting time and gaining a psychological at times with the Haka. I know the majority of the other teasm that are playing he AB's respect the Haka, but why should they have to listen to it? There under no obligation to do so, and the New zealand dont deserve any special treatment, irregardless of how much their dances are tied in with rugby culture. Irish dancing is a big part of Irish culture, why cant our players players dance a little jig to form our own tradition lol

Also, another thing, nothing ****** me off more than when people have a cry and a whinge about how certain teams disrespect the Haka by challenging it, whether it be a Willie Anderson or Richard Cockerill getting up in their faces, Wales standing their ground and not moving from the spot, or France forming an arrow as a sign of acceptance. Its a war challenge essentially FFS, and players should be allowed to respond to it as they feel.

Anyways thats just my two cents, dont want to offend anybody.

Its not special treatment though is it? Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Cook Islands, Niue, Papua New Guinea and Madagasca do it as well. It's like saying bagpipes should be banned when Scotland play away from home. Who says Irish players can't put a jig on if they feel its important to Irish culture? The argument seems entirely based on - well we don't have anything like it so they shouldn't.

National anthems are a European custom with only an adopted value to any Pacific Nation - I don't see why other cultures values can't be incorporated.

Also the haka as a 'war dance' is a bit misleading. Ka Mate is about escaping from an enemy by hiding (the most common haka of NZ). The other one they do is Kapa o Pango - which was created to represent all Māori rather than just the Ngāti Toa tribe - and its meaning literally relates to the All Blacks rugby. Both are certainly less calls for war than the French national anthem.

I think everyone agrees that players should be able to respond - you'll find few kiwis who disagree. I personally wasn't a fan of the "Swing Low" chant as I don't think drowning out the haka with chants is particularly respectful - as its up to the players to respond to the challenge (I wouldn't ban it though). But yeah, walking up to it is great. Even standing still and staring them down, which is what I've always done - gets me particularly amped.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Is it ban the Haka season is it?..lol

Hakas been around in NZ Rugby for a long while, probably longer than most of us here on TRF have been alive. You can just go and change that man (not that you can).

Id like to play any team at their best and if a Haka does that for them then do it before we get it on. Never would I go and take something away from a side just so I could feel better about my chances of winning. Just last week we played a stacked side, none of my team mates complained. Just bring it.

Why not ban smoking, ban guns, ban war...but ban the Haka??...ooookkkaay

You'll get his attention when they ban anal sex...

 

[Tony Manx]

I was just thinking about this the other day, and my thoughts on it are as follows:

I think the New Zealanders have every right to have the Haka on their own patch, and I wouldn't disrespect them by saying that it should be banned altogether. Its a part of their culture and something that the players and fans love, so at home its mandatory for him to have it against whoever they're playing. Away though I have a different opinion. I don't see why they should get special treatment when they're playing in another teams backyard, wasting time and gaining a psychological at times with the Haka. I know the majority of the other teasm that are playing he AB's respect the Haka, but why should they have to listen to it? There under no obligation to do so, and the New zealand dont deserve any special treatment, irregardless of how much their dances are tied in with rugby culture. Irish dancing is a big part of Irish culture, why cant our players players dance a little jig to form our own tradition lol

Also, another thing, nothing ****** me off more than when people have a cry and a whinge about how certain teams disrespect the Haka by challenging it, whether it be a Willie Anderson or Richard Cockerill getting up in their faces, Wales standing their ground and not moving from the spot, or France forming an arrow as a sign of acceptance. Its a war challenge essentially FFS, and players should be allowed to respond to it as they feel.

Anyways thats just my two cents, dont want to offend anybody.

Could not have put it better!

 

[smartcooky]

National anthems are a European custom with only an adopted value to any Pacific Nation

Yep, and if it REALLY came down to it, I would sacrifice the NZ National anthem and keep the Haka.

 

[profitius]

I think the haka should go back to basics:

That was comical. Its like the crowd burst out laughing there at the end!


Of course that raises another question. They say the Haka is PI culture etc but the NZ team is made up of White people too. What if they don't want to do it?

 

[nickdnz]

That was comical. Its like the crowd burst out laughing there at the end!

Of course that raises another question. They say the Haka is PI culture etc but the NZ team is made up of White people too. What if they don't want to do it?

National anthems are European cultures etc, what if Maori didn't want to do it? At the end of the days its part of a national identity - and you have to embrace cultural practices that aren't your own within a multi-cultural society.

 

[j'nuh]

That said, if you don't want to do it, you shouldn't be forced into it. You won't be doing yourself any favours though. The media would go bat****. I'd imagine it'd be like being English and giving the Queen the finger.

 

[Big Ewis]

Someone said once he thought ppl of direct European descent (well, white NZer's basically !) shouldn't do the haka because it has nothing to do with who they are, as it is a local, indigenous practice they're not related to in the slightest way. That it is hypocritical in a sense that they would adopt this alien thing to their own culture.
You can understand where he's coming from there, but obviously it's not exactly "with the times"; that being the illusion that everything is tolerable, everything is okay, and the myth that cultural diversity works. Because it is just that, a myth.

Of course that doesn't prevent all NZ'ers from practicing the haka, it's just some Rugby routine thing, nothing of political proportions...I'm just rather discussing AROUND the haka, as opposed to discussing *it*.

 

[LittleGuy]

National anthems are European cultures etc, what if Maori didn't want to do it? At the end of the days its part of a national identity - and you have to embrace cultural practices that aren't your own within a multi-cultural society.

No I don't, I'm an adult with free will and free thought, I can embrace whatever the heck I want. If there is a cultural practice carried out by a group in Canada that I find reprehensible I don't have to embrace it. (Note that I don't put the haka into this category)

 

[j'nuh]

Someone said once he thought ppl of direct European descent (well, white NZer's basically !) shouldn't do the haka because it has nothing to do with who they are, as it is a local, indigenous practice they're not related to in the slightest way. That it is hypocritical in a sense that they would adopt this alien thing to their own culture.
You can understand where he's coming from there, but obviously it's not exactly "with the times"; that being the illusion that everything is tolerable, everything is okay, and the myth that cultural diversity works. Because it is just that, a myth.

Cultural diversity is the best bloody thing about the modern age. That I can watch American tv, eat Italian/Indian food, play rugby with people from SANZAR, meet people of all these different nationalities at uni, walk through an area predominantly of another nationality in my own city thereby experiencing a microcosm of a world outside England in England, the 6N, the Heineken Cup, the super bowl, chatting with a forum which is 80-90 per cent not English, gaming with people from anywhere in the world... cultural diversity does bloody work.

btw, if the haka was a local, indigenous thing, then it wouldn't be the symbol of the biggest interest of a nation! It's like saying that only pagans should be able to enjoy Christmas.

 

[smartcooky]

...if the haka was a local, indigenous thing, then it wouldn't be the symbol of the biggest interest of a nation! It's like saying that only pagans should be able to enjoy Christmas.

Clever! Very Clever

 

[Patchey]

btw, if the haka was a local, indigenous thing, then it wouldn't be the symbol of the biggest interest of a nation! It's like saying that only pagans should be able to enjoy Christmas.