• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

BLM and South African Players

ncurd

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
11,092
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

if the kneeling was just a symbol like the 3 fingers in the air in hunger games, or live long and prosper like in Star Trek, then so be it,
This was Rokoduguni's solution and I'm surprised more sports stars that supposedly have an issue with the specific act of kneeling (and nothing else) haven't done similar. Which is why I think its mainly bullshirt apart from a few people.
There is something almost authoritarian/fascist about BLM.

The implication that you cannot possibly disagree with anything they say and if you do not do exactly that they demand then you are a racist,.

Nobody should feel obliged to kneel, nobody should have to explain why they haven;t kneeled.
We'll probably get stuck on the movement/organisation point here again so no point in repeating myself. But I disagree with numerous points the BLM oragnisation (the group that own the website) in the US has I think some of thier ideas are counter productive. Other things I agree on. But your not doing that actually your dealing with genralisms and abolsuteisms "you can't disagree with anything they have to say" well you can and I know many people who do. They don't called get racist, I don't think I've called anyone a racist in this conversation (except actual racist groups). It actually doesn't happen, People I've found (espeically in marginalised groups) are actually quite happy to have a conversation about things and listen. Sure like with any oragnisation there are a ton of bad eggs its a bit like Labour and Momentum and I;m fairly certain there a nice people within Momentum. Most Labour party members I know are kind well thinking people. The couple of Momentum people I know can be absolute shits. That doesn't represent Labout as a whole and doesn't represent Momentum either, probably.



I agree with Heiniken BTW I have no idea why sporting authorities decided to attach themselves to a movement that within it has organisation that people have issues with (nobody wants to say what those issues are though, some say defund the police but in UK its widely considerered I think even by most left winger as a mad idea unlike say the US where its militarisation is demonstrably part of the problem, different countries different solutions) and not just a wider message of racism within their sport and representation within that. Its a misstep that I think has detracted even here from the more important questions about how we solves thing, We saw a similar issue in the UK real conversations were happening some protesters tore down a statue rightly or wrongly and it was by the governement to stop having sensible conversations and became about bordering up statues and move the conversation away.





With Rugby I want to ask the question why its a predominantly (in the UK) a white upper middle class sport, that barely tries to work with people beyond that especially in the inner cities from people from far less previledged backgrounds. Ebony Rainford-Brent a PoC womens cricketer said that Surrey CC wasn;t talking to schools in its local area and when they did engagement was extremely high so the idea that these places are just not interested is a falsehood.
 

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,006,531
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

I can't remember who it was that said it (maybe Monye?) but there's a difference between BLM and blm, with the former being the "movement" and the latter being the sentiment, and the latter being what they want to draw attention to.

A number of players shared this image on social media recently:
 

ncurd

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
11,092
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

I can't remember who it was that said it (maybe Monye?) but there's a difference between BLM and blm, with the former being the "movement" and the latter being the sentiment, and the latter being what they want to draw attention to.
Excellent post that articulated what I've been trying to say, my only disagreement is I think the sentiment and movement are one in the same. The issue is an organisation that has co-opted itself as the one true voice giving something for people to disagree with with. If they hadn't called themselves BLM the two things would be cleanly separated as they should be,


One comment did make me laugh calling BLM Anarchist and Marxist. Now I don't know a huge amount of political theory but I'm fairly certain Marxism (which almost certainly requires a state) really can't work with Anarchism (which calls for not states, laws etc.)
 

Le Frére Alpha

Fat Boi
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
15,086
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leinster

This was Rokoduguni's solution and I'm surprised more sports stars that supposedly have an issue with the specific act of kneeling (and nothing else) haven't done similar. Which is why I think its mainly bullshirt apart from a few people.

This is the only part of this I disagree with you on in this thread. I don't think I'd take a knee if I was in a similar position, I can't really say why I'm just not comfortable doing so. I think my posts in the Political Thread this summer show clearly that I fully believe this is an issue that needs immediate attention and action but taking a knee just doesn't seem necessary to me.

I'd definitely be on the side of the F1 drivers who didn't kneel on this one, it's not something that I think is needed to support this message and movement.
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,898
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

I can't remember who it was that said it (maybe Monye?) but there's a difference between BLM and blm, with the former being the "movement" and the latter being the sentiment, and the latter being what they want to draw attention to.

A number of players shared this image on social media recently:

But how do you separate between BLM and blm??

Anyone who kneels, automatically show support for BLM in all shapes and forms. Not kneeling shows you don't support BLM. Now wearing a shirt saying rugby against racism, you are being investigated for racism. Clearly wearing the shirt and standing united with others of different races/ethnic groups shows solidarity.

The thing is though and this is purely from a South African perspective is that we want to bring across the message of alm, not just blm. ALL LIVES MATTER. There is serious problem over here with the white farmers getting murdered at an alarming pace, our government is denying that it's an issue. But now that 8 of our Springbok stars don't support BLM, they are under the microscope.

I appreciate the post that Itoje made, I think it's one way to go about this, but the hashtag on the bottom is taking a bit away from what is said above it.
 

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,006,531
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

But how do you separate between BLM and blm??
Quite easily?
One is a literal organisation the other is the sentiment of anti-racism.
Just because they share the same name doesn't mean they're the same thing.
 

mdaclarke

Bench Player
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
745
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

Be interested to know the answer to these questions

1. Should players be obliged to to the knee?
2. If they don't take the knee should players be obliged to explain their reasons why?
3. If players don't take the knee, should players face any consequences?
4. If the answer to 3 is yes, what consequences should they face?

My answers are
NO, NO, NO, N/A
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,898
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

Quite easily?
One is a literal organisation the other is the sentiment of anti-racism

I mean in society. The general populace doesn't delve so deep into this issue as others, they are either pro-BLM or not. They don't see a difference between BLM and blm. Most people also don't read the articles in depth as others, and some can't even articulate the difference between the 2.

I think the idea of RAR (Rugby against Racism) was an easier move than rather picking between BLM or blm. Movements like RAR, ALM and alike are there with the idea to give people an alternative to support blm and not be part of BLM.

Labels...
 

ncurd

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
11,092
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

Be interested to know the answer to these questions

1. Should players be obliged to to the knee?
2. If they don't take the knee should players be obliged to explain their reasons why?
3. If players don't take the knee, should players face any consequences?
4. If the answer to 3 is yes, what consequences should they face?

My answers are
NO, NO, NO, N/A
No,
No but only due to the word obliged I think considering it is controversial thing actually stating their reasons in a carefully prepared statement is actually a sensible thing to do.
No (at least direct consequences they might due to their statement or saying nothing face indirect conseuquences such as less sponsorships deals but)
Again N/A
 

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,006,531
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

It's weird that you have such an issue blm being co-opted by BLM but don't recognise that "All Lives Matter" is just a racist dog whistle

The general populace doesn't delve so deep into this issue as others,
I think the general populace don't know BLM is a physical organisation - i.e. my parents are anti-racist, say black lives matter, would have no idea that there's an organisation taking money from donations and with political goals.
They take it at face value: black lives matter.
 

ncurd

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
11,092
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

I mean in society. The general populace doesn't delve so deep into this issue as others, they are either pro-BLM or not. They don't see a difference between BLM and blm. Most people also don't read the articles in depth as others, and some can't even articulate the difference between the 2.

I think the idea of RAR (Rugby against Racism) was an easier move than rather picking between BLM or blm. Movements like RAR, ALM and alike are there with the idea to give people an alternative to support blm and not be part of BLM.

Labels...
should note as you've mentioned it a couple of time whilst the SA reasoning it granted a little more complex outside ALM is essentially a racist dogwhilste in an attempt to deflect from the actual problem. These cartoons explain why in some ways its terrible term.

EZsMxEKWAAAAgqI.jpg:large

20160707_allhousesredux.png
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,898
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

should note as you've mentioned it a couple of time whilst the SA reasoning it granted a little more complex outside ALM is essentially a racist dogwhilste in an attempt to deflect from the actual problem. These cartoons explain why in some ways its terrible term.

To non-saffers, yeah, I can see that as applicable. But this whole time I've been responding as a South African, and over here it's completely different.

Those comics are actually pretty damn good.

The reason why the slogan All lives matter is being used over here, instead of White Lives Matter, is precisely what you are illustrating, and that slogan is used to move away from racism.

It's the white farmers that are being murdered, and there are protests nearly every week now. The idea isn't to take away the message of BLM in the USA, and what is going on there, it's to incorporate that idea of brutality and nothing being done to stop it, and localising it into something applicable in South Africa.

If a white person would walk around with a banner saying white lives matter in the streets of SA, there would be a mob stoning that person to death within seconds.
 

mdaclarke

Bench Player
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
745
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

No,
No but only due to the word obliged I think considering it is controversial thing actually stating their reasons in a carefully prepared statement is actually a sensible thing to do.
No (at least direct consequences they might due to their statement or saying nothing face indirect conseuquences such as less sponsorships deals but)
Again N/A


The article is a symbol of all that is wrong with BLM. You almost wonder if they are Trump sleeper agents.
 

ncurd

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
11,092
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath


The article is a symbol of all that is wrong with BLM. You almost wonder if they are Trump sleeper agents.
Yup its wrong but your also taking a small group of supporters its also counterproductive as noted the person they decided to push was actually a supporters and protestor themselves.

I once witnessed someone do something similar about trans-rights and it was quite honestly appalling. Within the community in general the act set back us helping trans people for a couple of years because it turned so many people against those one or two indivduals. The sad thing is there were many people who badly got effected by this. It didn't stop thier cause being right just thier methods of being heard.
 

mdaclarke

Bench Player
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
745
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Wales

Yup its wrong but your also taking a small group of supporters its also counterproductive as noted the person they decided to push was actually a supporters and protestor themselves.

I once witnessed someone do something similar about trans-rights and it was quite honestly appalling. Within the community in general the act set back us helping trans people for a couple of years because it turned so many people against those one or two indivduals. The sad thing is there were many people who badly got effected by this. It didn't stop thier cause being right just thier methods of being heard.

Agreed in so far as everyone can get behind the principle that everyone should be treated fairly and given equal opportunities regardless of colour, but incidents this this do make BLM look like a Fascist/Authoritarian organisation.
 

dullonien

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
5,479
Country Flag

Wales

Is there anywhere that specifically states that Premiership/Pro 14 players are specifically supporting BLM during these acts before a game? I've only seen the 'rugby against racism' slogan used. Surely that's something everyone can get behind?

Also, one more thing on the religion aspect of kneeling. If this were the sole reason for not kneeling (as some players have suggested), why can they not kneel in prayer to god at this time, praying for racism to be abolished?

I'm sorry but I'm really struggling to understand why anyone wouldn't kneel for such an important cause. I know the situation is very different in SA, but is there no solidarity/understanding with the millions of black people around the world who are affected by racism inc. in SA? How about any black team mates that have had the misfortune of being marginalised based on their race?

Imo the racial discrimination message of BLM (even if we put the police brutality aspect to one side for now) far outweighs any negative aspects of the BLM movement, which has been hijacked by a small minority of people who are pushing their own agenda's. I mean this isn't unique to BLM, just look at most mainstream religions!

I understand the argument that kneeling shouldn't be some compulsory gesture, however the symbolism and power such a simple gesture gives is far greater than the wearing of a t-shirt etc. I'd compare it to the 2 minute silence on remembrance day. Yes wearing a poppy is a lovely gesture, but the impact of everyone staying silent for 2 minutes is massive. IMO it's a shame that rugby hasn't portrayed a united front on this. As a result the message has been muddied, and if I was looking on as an impressionable kid who might have racist role models around me (family/friends), this wouldn't convince me that my rugby idols as a whole fully oppose racism.

I know that's not the intention of those players who didn't kneel, but it's probably the message being portrayed regardless.

I will end by saying that despite this being the way I feel, I still respect the right for people to have their own opposing views, and for people not to kneel. I might not fully understand the reasoning behind it, but I still respect it.
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,898
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

Also, one more thing on the religion aspect of kneeling. If this were the sole reason for not kneeling (as some players have suggested), why can they not kneel in prayer to god at this time, praying for racism to be abolished?

I'm sure they do kneel now and pray, but on their own terms. To kneel as a compulsory gesture at a certain point and time when others do that to show support for the BLM-movement, would be defeating the purpose of each player's own choice and freedom.

I'm sorry but I'm really struggling to understand why anyone wouldn't kneel for such an important cause. I know the situation is very different in SA, but is there no solidarity/understanding with the millions of black people around the world who are affected by racism inc. in SA? How about any black team mates that have had the misfortune of being marginalised based on their race?

Why does there have to be a difference between the BLM movement and any other movement against Racism. What about coloured people who were just as much victims during apartheid as black people. Who are now being marginalised by black and white people. Why isn't there a CLM-movement?

To umbrella racism in it's totality, to me, is a much better way to go, than to show support for just one shade of colour.

Imo the racial discrimination message of BLM (even if we put the police brutality aspect to one side for now) far outweighs any negative aspects of the BLM movement, which has been hijacked by a small minority of people who are pushing their own agenda's. I mean this isn't unique to BLM, just look at most mainstream religions!

I guess this is totally dependant on the media outlets, and how people became aware of the movement. Many people jumped on the BLM bandwagon immdeiately after the incident happened with George Floyd. and have been campaigning ever since.

Others are against the movement because of the reports of Floyd's criminal history and the violence he's been found guilty on. There have also been posts circulating on social media, that the co-founder of the BLM-movement is a human-trafficker, and that there is a real big irony in that human trafficking is the modern day slave trade.

I would be careful to compare this kind of movement to that of religion. That's just a big can of worms I don't think anyone wants to open...

I understand the argument that kneeling shouldn't be some compulsory gesture, however the symbolism and power such a simple gesture gives is far greater than the wearing of a t-shirt etc. I'd compare it to the 2 minute silence on remembrance day. Yes wearing a poppy is a lovely gesture, but the impact of everyone staying silent for 2 minutes is massive. IMO it's a shame that rugby hasn't portrayed a united front on this. As a result the message has been muddied, and if I was looking on as an impressionable kid who might have racist role models around me (family/friends), this wouldn't convince me that my rugby idols as a whole fully oppose racism.

It wasn't just the t-shirt though. Standing in unison together arms interlocked, people of different races standing together. But that's lost on most BLM-movement followers because the "Rugby against Racism"-guys didn't kneel.

I know that's not the intention of those players who didn't kneel, but it's probably the message being portrayed regardless.

Oh I don't know, I think most kids who are looking up to players like Faf de Klerk, Lood De Jager and Manu Tuilagi would still respect them after standing together. And I also think some of the older kids, who knows a little bit of politics would appreciate the gesture that these guys aren't using their profession and love of the sport to score political points.

The fact that these guys are getting death threats after they didn't kneel, speaks volumes about some of the BLM-movement followers. Yet, we haven't seen a single article stating that the guys showing support for the BLM movement also got death threats.

I will end by saying that despite this being the way I feel, I still respect the right for people to have their own opposing views, and for people not to kneel. I might not fully understand the reasoning behind it, but I still respect it.

I fully understand your point of view. I guess I'm completely on the opposite side of this, kneeling for anything other than to ask your loved one to marry you, or praying to the Almighty, or to be knighted, or to swear fealty to Khaleesi, is kind of taking away the enormity of the gesture itself.

But I understand that the people that started this gesture for BLM, couldn't think of another gesture at that time, or didn't even consider the weight that this gesture has for others...
 

ncurd

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
11,092
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

Sorry you honestly don't think public people who support BLM don't get death threats? I'n not condoning either side here both are are clearly wrong but to honestly pretend that isn't happening? That's one hell of a bubble you live in.
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,898
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

Sorry you honestly don't think public people who support BLM don't get death threats? I'n not condoning either side here both are are clearly wrong but to honestly pretend that isn't happening? That's one hell of a bubble you live in.

Don't try and change my words, I'm purely speaking about the rugby players and specifically the Sale Sharks team.

I know people supporting BLM gets death threats, I'm not denying that in any way, or condoning it. We are talking here about the Rugby players, not the other public people.
 
Top