Canada vs. U.S.A. Pacific Nations Cup. 25/05/13

[munstermuffin]

He went OK from what I could tell. Almost scored a try near the end but got dragged down just short of the line and we failed to score.

Cheers for that. Has he a chance of future caps during summer

 

[norcalbuff]

It's not related to the "utter ineptitude" of Rugby Canada at all. Rumours are, of course, just rumours. But any talk of a professional league in North America has usually discussed the possibility of franchises being located in Canada too. However, in the unlikelihood of professional rugby coming to North America, how do you reconcile the fact that Canada has a working and improving regional competition which appears to be more effective than the system in the US?

The US has more potential as a rugby nation, but potential doesn't equal professional. Amateur? Not at all.

Reconcile that with what? I'd prefer a regional representative competition but the Elite Cup is effectively that anyway.

 

[norcalbuff]

Cheers for that. Has he a chance of future caps during summer

There is a lot of competition for spots in the back row with Scott LaValla and Samu Manoa (one will likely play lock, probably Manoa) coming in for the Ireland test as well as Cam Dolan working his way back from injury. However, with 3 matches in 9 days in June, I'd imagine he'd at least make the match day 23 again.

 

[psychic duck]

By the way Little Guy, I wasn't saying that Canada may drop into the bottom 4 for good. It's just when rugby went pro, it slowly dragged all the professional teams ahead of the second half of the World Cup teams. I know rugby went pro in 1995, but change didn't happen overnight, but by about 2003 World Cup (a low point for Tier 2 for a number of reasons), England had taken professionalism to new levels under Woodward and got ahead of anybody. Other teams had elements, but Woodward took it to the highest level possible, now more normal amongst very well funded teams.

Since then it has been catch up for Tier 2, but I feel that the top won't get much stronger than they are now. The improvement in defences and physical conditioning is hit a plateau after a boom in a way.

So now all that can happen is Tier 2 will get closer and closer as they themselves slowly professionalise their outfits. There are different methods for doing this but you have to do it because you simply can't compete as amateurs against pros.

And the way things are going currently. I feel USA are the more likely to get there first and improve and overtake Canada at some point when they do, there pretty much near level already. That's not to say that Canada couldn't catch back up if they make alterations to what their running of the game is more old guard, conservative and amateur. Look at their board (http://www.rugbycanada.ca/leagues/custom_page.cfm?clientid=3817&leagueid=0&pageid=4385), it's all full of in house appointments which is indicative of the keep it in the family attitude and not spread it to untouched territories.

If you look at 10 years ago in 2003. Canada has already been matched and caught up in a way by USA. 10 years ago Canada were easily better, USA has caught up. Canada has stayed static at playing level (if not worse for a period) and with attendances. USA is on an upward curve at both.

There is a lot of competition for spots in the back row with Scott LaValla and Samu Manoa (one will likely play lock, probably Manoa) coming in for the Ireland test as well as Cam Dolan working his way back from injury. However, with 3 matches in 9 days in June, I'd imagine he'd at least make the match day 23 again.

Add to that Taylor Mokate returning from his leg break at some point will add competition.

 

[Dougydeluxe]

You guys are missing some key elements to your discussions...

First is the Cultural aspect:

Canada has always been a far more accepting country that looks for common ground to solve issues, while the States are more confrontational with a desire to show their pride at any time. This is minor, but a reason why USA Rugby looks great for the Top level, but falls off a bit to fast.

The second and far more important aspect is $$$$$$.

Canada is 1/10 the size of USA, therefore even if half of our population watched rugby, we would still not bring as much money to the game that the USA potential can. There for it is difficult for Canada to impose pressure on the IRB, when we have very little leverage. The USA on the other hand can, not to get into politics, but this is one of the times that Canada should stick with our brothers from the south and partner up... it will only help us both out.

The final thought, is we don't know what is going on with the money being spent behind the scenes. RC is far more OLD Boys, and for that I bet that they put more time and money into getting proper broadcasting, instead of being smart and investing far less money into quality streaming. If the Old Boys do pull it off and start getting better broadcasting for next year, then it could pay off... but still silly.

 

[LittleGuy]

Highlight package.....

 

[psychic duck]

Why wasn't Clever sin binned?

 

[LittleGuy]

Why wasn't Clever sin binned?

I think the touch judge saw Buydens pulling his hair, still surpising there wasn't a yellow, it wasn't like he just through one punch at Buydens after the pulling he threw a few at him.

 

[Canucks]

I disagree with a number of aspects of the arguments put forward by psychic duc and norcalbluff

Let go, point at a time.

USA has caught up/surpasses Canada - ok when you have a winning record versus us let me know. Really is usa consistently surpasses canada it will not be because canada is amateur it will be because usa decided that they want to dominate the sport.

USA is massively more professional, canada is amateur - when you can field more professional players than us on a consistent basis or when your magic pipe dream professional league actually makes money, please let me know. Your arguments are based on speculations, mine are facts.

Rugby canada are inept - disagree. They have had failures but I would not place this title on them. That title belongs to the bc rugby union. Always conspicuous by their recent absence from a good international event. Rugby canada clearly has a business plan based on a limited budget and are maximising their return.

I reckon rugby canada's budget is about 15 mill which is based on limited advertising revenue, irb grants, tv rights, coc grants and other smaller sources. Typically when dealing with various funding stakeholders, you need to justify your existence so you would focus your funding into areas that will give you best return/most exposure. Can anyone tell me the best way to increase a performance based budget? Winning on big stages.

This is why the 7s team gets a ton of money thrown behind it. This is why Rugby canada has tsn/sportsnet broadcast big games. This is why a meaningless game played in a rainy Alberta park had a broadcast budget of about $20. It's annoying but Why spend big bucks when less 100 people are going to watch?

I imagine as the budget grows this will be less of a problem.

Canada needs to upgrade it's stadiums - ehhhh kinda. Canada needs to get sensible people running the bc rugby union and also needs a contract with bc place. It is a world class stadium with one of the best turf fields around. No excuses why this is not used.

Canada has been abysmal a spreading the game - if anything rugby canada has been going through a flux. It has spent a ghuge amount of money developing rugby in saskatchewan, ontario and the maritimes whilst moving away from BC. Ontario is now the dtrongest union whilst bc has dropped away. This move allows the organisation to be truly professional.

Quebec is a tough cultural nut to crack. If you think rugby would be easily assimilated by quebecois please remember these people typically hate anything english. At best, it's a project for the future.

Can't remember the rest of your irrational points as I'm on my phone.
Please continue though.

 

[CDN_Rugby]

I disagree with a number of aspects of the arguments put forward by psychic duc and norcalbluff

Let go, point at a time.

USA has caught up/surpasses Canada - ok when you have a winning record versus us let me know. Really is usa consistently surpasses canada it will not be because canada is amateur it will be because usa decided that they want to dominate the sport.

USA is massively more professional, canada is amateur - when you can field more professional players than us on a consistent basis or when your magic pipe dream professional league actually makes money, please let me know. Your arguments are based on speculations, mine are facts.

Rugby canada are inept - disagree. They have had failures but I would not place this title on them. That title belongs to the bc rugby union. Always conspicuous by their recent absence from a good international event. Rugby canada clearly has a business plan based on a limited budget and are maximising their return.

I reckon rugby canada's budget is about 15 mill which is based on limited advertising revenue, irb grants, tv rights, coc grants and other smaller sources. Typically when dealing with various funding stakeholders, you need to justify your existence so you would focus your funding into areas that will give you best return/most exposure. Can anyone tell me the best way to increase a performance based budget? Winning on big stages.

This is why the 7s team gets a ton of money thrown behind it. This is why Rugby canada has tsn/sportsnet broadcast big games. This is why a meaningless game played in a rainy Alberta park had a broadcast budget of about $20. It's annoying but Why spend big bucks when less 100 people are going to watch?

I imagine as the budget grows this will be less of a problem.

Canada needs to upgrade it's stadiums - ehhhh kinda. Canada needs to get sensible people running the bc rugby union and also needs a contract with bc place. It is a world class stadium with one of the best turf fields around. No excuses why this is not used.

Canada has been abysmal a spreading the game - if anything rugby canada has been going through a flux. It has spent a ghuge amount of money developing rugby in saskatchewan, ontario and the maritimes whilst moving away from BC. Ontario is now the dtrongest union whilst bc has dropped away. This move allows the organisation to be truly professional.

Quebec is a tough cultural nut to crack. If you think rugby would be easily assimilated by quebecois please remember these people typically hate anything english. At best, it's a project for the future.

Can't remember the rest of your irrational points as I'm on my phone.
Please continue though.

This.

 

[norcalbuff]

I disagree with a number of aspects of the arguments put forward by psychic duc and norcalbluff

Let go, point at a time.

USA has caught up/surpasses Canada - ok when you have a winning record versus us let me know. Really is usa consistently surpasses canada it will not be because canada is amateur it will be because usa decided that they want to dominate the sport.

Results from the 1980s aren't relevant to the standing of the two countries today. Furthermore, the point made is that Canada will be left behind if they continue like this, not that they have been.

USA is massively more professional, canada is amateur - when you can field more professional players than us on a consistent basis or when your magic pipe dream professional league actually makes money, please let me know. Your arguments are based on speculations, mine are facts.

I don't think you understand what you're arguing here. We are saying Rugby Canada acts in a much less professional manner than USA Rugby, not that Canada has fewer professional players, something completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Rugby canada are inept - disagree. They have had failures but I would not place this title on them. That title belongs to the bc rugby union. Always conspicuous by their recent absence from a good international event. Rugby canada clearly has a business plan based on a limited budget and are maximising their return.

Having a **** poor relationship with the BCRU is partly Rugby Canada's fault. Certainly from what I've seen the BCRU are mostly to blame but it's not all them.

I reckon rugby canada's budget is about 15 mill which is based on limited advertising revenue, irb grants, tv rights, coc grants and other smaller sources. Typically when dealing with various funding stakeholders, you need to justify your existence so you would focus your funding into areas that will give you best return/most exposure. Can anyone tell me the best way to increase a performance based budget? Winning on big stages.

This is why the 7s team gets a ton of money thrown behind it. This is why Rugby canada has tsn/sportsnet broadcast big games. This is why a meaningless game played in a rainy Alberta park had a broadcast budget of about $20. It's annoying but Why spend big bucks when less 100 people are going to watch?

Have you considered that perhaps fewer people cared specifically because it was played in a rainy Alberta park? And give me a break about it being a meaningless game. It was a test match against Canada's biggest rival as the opening match of the Pacific Nations Cup.

Canada needs to upgrade it's stadiums - ehhhh kinda. Canada needs to get sensible people running the bc rugby union and also needs a contract with bc place. It is a world class stadium with one of the best turf fields around. No excuses why this is not used.

Agreed.

Can't remember the rest of your irrational points as I'm on my phone.
Please continue though.

Feel free to add more. This time please actually address the arguments rather than seeing the word "professional" and looking for tenuous links.

 

[psychic duck]

Results from the 1980s aren't relevant to the standing of the two countries today. Furthermore, the point made is that Canada will be left behind if they continue like this, not that they have been.

Exactly. We are talking current trend, not historical. Of course Canada has the better historical record, but the fact is that USA has come from behind from previous years and now over these past couple years has come from behind ad got virtually on about the same level. In 2009, Canada won the RWC qualifier 41-18, but now USA has caught up for both matches to be very close.

So the trend is that the USA has caught up with Canada, and the way things are going with developments in the way the game is run in either respective country suggests that they could continue this trend to overtake.

Just contrast the marketing efforts of either side for the Italy fixtures this year, and just contrast the marketing efforts if the Ireland match this year and they are world's apart and I expect the USA will get a better crowd than they did last year and increase the gap there over Canada.

Meanwhile on the field, the USA look the far more likely at this current moment to be the ones who will further professionalise their set up. Canada seems just to be stuck in amateur era. And their crappy streams just sum that up, could you ever imagine any professional Tier 1 nations covering a match like that? Tier 2 sides Japan has all their matches properly done for their audience, Georgia is a poorer country yet has all their matches on national TV, Romania also has all their matches done for TV. Whilst the Pacific Islanders get the IRB to pay for them. So Canada is the only nation in the top 18 that can't cover their national team games properly (apart from the one big game per year vs Italy/Ireland).

How many Canadian kids or potential fans (if they even gone to the effort to find it) would honestly look at that coverage and would see just a some soggy local park with a few people in tents beside the pitch and a video that kept stopping and starting would honestly be enthralled to play or pay to go in future to bring money to Canada Rugby? That stream made what is supposed to be the national team look like it was some local park team. So as I was saying, it sums up the amateurishness of Canada rugby.

 

[LittleGuy]

Not to be pedantic guys, but again the turf stadium issue comes up, and it will still take some convincing to get another union to play on turf, hopefully Saracens and the Cardiff Blues can change people's preconceptions but as of now it isn't possible to get full test matches on turf. Rugby Canada have been trying to get a smaller opponent to come to Langford for the beautiful facility there(which ahas IRB and FIFA approved turf) and so far hasn't been able to, with the exception of the ARC which isn't capped.

I haven't heard of a major international(Tier 1 or 2) test match played on turf, I could be mistaken but it's not like Rugby Canada can just say "we are playing at BC Place" and not expect their opponent to go along with no questions asked.

 

[rusty_lock]

Not to be pedantic guys, but again the turf stadium issue comes up, and it will still take some convincing to get another union to play on turf, hopefully Saracens and the Cardiff Blues can change people's preconceptions but as of now it isn't possible to get full test matches on turf. Rugby Canada have been trying to get a smaller opponent to come to Langford for the beautiful facility there(which ahas IRB and FIFA approved turf) and so far hasn't been able to, with the exception of the ARC which isn't capped.

I haven't heard of a major international(Tier 1 or 2) test match played on turf, I could be mistaken but it's not like Rugby Canada can just say "we are playing at BC Place" and not expect their opponent to go along with no questions asked.

When Russia came over they had a game versus the BC Bears in preparation for their Test against Canada at Bear Mountain on the turf and it was an excellent event that was well attended.

I find this slagging of RC funny to read particularly coming from Americans, USA Rugby has got to be the most disfunctional union in the top 20 outside of maybe Fiji. They can't keep a coach from quiting in both mens 15's and 7's and now they went and hired a high school coach because absolutely nobody with any significant coaching experience from a Tier 1 country wanted the job. They hired the washed up Canadian 15's coach to coach their women's program because they had no one competent in-house to move into that position. Remarkably, that has proven to be the best and smartest thing that they have done. As their play and standing have improved under Ric Suggits tutelage.

You talk about USA heading towards professional leagues but that is just a laughable joke. Nigel Melville talks and talks and talks about it but that is all it is, talk. You can't point to one concrete step that has been taken toward that goal. Please don't try and tell me that Super league is heading that way. I have watched it and can tell you first hand Super League is a joke. It is a rec league with a travel budget that is all. Seattle was a semi finalist in super league or (elite cup as they call it now), and also competes in the BC Men League One. That is the third Tier of Competition for senior Mens rugby here in BC and they got their butt handed to them regularly in that competition. But let me tell you, the webcast of the super league final was of the highest quality. Unfortunately the rugby is still poop. Don't believe me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...JFfkRdbjKMk45jaP-M2-q4O&v=lDmceiiRkPc#t=1159s Start watching here and take a look at these fine physical specimans propping the national championship game. Why do you think that your great up and coming prop Shawn Pittman came to BC to play for Bayside. He came because he wanted competition that was unavailable anywhere in the USA. My over 40's team would be competitive in super league. I know most of my teammates are at least fitter than these fatties fresh from hot dog eating competition at the county fair. Professional rugby nonsense... All you have is Melville drivel alluding to what they are working toward. If USA Rugby has gotten any better, it is by accident rather than design. If you have better attendance the Irleland test than we do it is because you have TEN TIMES the population base. At least in Canada we have the CRC and while it is not perfect and not a fully professional league with respect to player salaries, it is fully professional in it's setup, training and organization and may one day be able to morph into a that professional league that we so earnestly covet here in North America.


I have been a critic of RC at times, actually often, but I have to say that there has been a marked improvement in their management and professionalism over the last six years and it has, for the most part, silenced my criticism. I would say that 2007 RWC was the lowest of the low points Rugby Canada and things looked pretty dire. There was no identity, there was no vision and there really was no future. But instead of a bunch of navel gazing and pontification on future professionalism that was all pie in the sky there were some hard decisions and some hard work and Canadian Rugby is definitely on an upswing that has no ceiling. The parochial infighting that existed has been a hindrance that has stunted our development but it would appear that that is behind us. I was, just today, speaking with an executive with BC Rugby and BC is fully on board with CRC and all that RC is doing. There was well over a thousand people in attendance for the BC High School Semi finals today and it was ******* rain and miserable. Were expecting sunshine through the weekend and we will have at least two thousand in attendance for the HS final. The quality of the Rugby was excellent also even though there will be no webcast. As I sat in the stands I certainly didn't get the feeling that the sun was setting on rugby in Canada. Thankfully RC has not wasted money on fancy and fine looking webcasts for fat, out of shape, props whose only hope of winning a significant prize is if they waddle on down to the local 7-11 and buy a box of "Cracker Jacks", but focused it's limited and precious resources on player development and the promotion grass roots rugby. As an example, just a few months ago 20 HS coaches, myself included, had access to NSMT coaches for a 6 hour coaching clinic free of charge. It is this kind of investment that will reap a harvest of players that may one day catapult us from Tier 2 status into the lofty heights of Tier 1. Not talking about prefessional rugby with no actual plan to get there. We have tremendous work ahead of us and are nowhere near where we need to be but we have definitely turned around from the abyss and heading into future with hope. Webcasts notwithstanding.

 

[LittleGuy]

On the venue issue Rugby Canada tried to convince the IRB to allow the Canada vs. Moari game this November at BC Place but as I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR THE ENTIRE THREAD!!! The IRB refused because of the TURF....http://www.rugbycanada.ca/leagues/newsletter.cfm?clientID=3817&leagueID=0&page=70629

 

[londonderryrugby]

Are there any young and up coming players to watch out for? Any of either USA or Canada squad's that could make the move across the pond to pro rugby in europe?

 

[LittleGuy]

Are there any young and up coming players to watch out for? Any of either USA or Canada squad's that could make the move across the pond to pro rugby in europe?

For Canada Tyler Ardron will almost certainly get a pro contract soon, Braid will probably get picked up by another championship club. A couple of players might get looks in the ITM cup apparently, Hamilton, Buydens and White specifically.

Edit: Apparently Hassler has just signed with Ospreys!!!

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

When Russia came over they had a game versus the BC Bears in preparation for their Test against Canada at Bear Mountain on the turf and it was an excellent event that was well attended.

I find this slagging of RC funny to read particularly coming from Americans, USA Rugby has got to be the most disfunctional union in the top 20 outside of maybe Fiji. They can't keep a coach from quiting in both mens 15's and 7's and now they went and hired a high school coach because absolutely nobody with any significant coaching experience from a Tier 1 country wanted the job. They hired the washed up Canadian 15's coach to coach their women's program because they had no one competent in-house to move into that position. Remarkably, that has proven to be the best and smartest thing that they have done. As their play and standing have improved under Ric Suggits tutelage.

You talk about USA heading towards professional leagues but that is just a laughable joke. Nigel Melville talks and talks and talks about it but that is all it is, talk. You can't point to one concrete step that has been taken toward that goal. Please don't try and tell me that Super league is heading that way. I have watched it and can tell you first hand Super League is a joke. It is a rec league with a travel budget that is all. Seattle was a semi finalist in super league or (elite cup as they call it now), and also competes in the BC Men League One. That is the third Tier of Competition for senior Mens rugby here in BC and they got their butt handed to them regularly in that competition. But let me tell you, the webcast of the super league final was of the highest quality. Unfortunately the rugby is still poop. Don't believe me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...JFfkRdbjKMk45jaP-M2-q4O&v=lDmceiiRkPc#t=1159s Start watching here and take a look at these fine physical specimans propping the national championship game. Why do you think that your great up and coming prop Shawn Pittman came to BC to play for Bayside. He came because he wanted competition that was unavailable anywhere in the USA. My over 40's team would be competitive in super league. I know most of my teammates are at least fitter than these fatties fresh from hot dog eating competition at the county fair. Professional rugby nonsense... All you have is Melville drivel alluding to what they are working toward. If USA Rugby has gotten any better, it is by accident rather than design. If you have better attendance the Irleland test than we do it is because you have TEN TIMES the population base. At least in Canada we have the CRC and while it is not perfect and not a fully professional league with respect to player salaries, it is fully professional in it's setup, training and organization and may one day be able to morph into a that professional league that we so earnestly covet here in North America.


I have been a critic of RC at times, actually often, but I have to say that there has been a marked improvement in their management and professionalism over the last six years and it has, for the most part, silenced my criticism. I would say that 2007 RWC was the lowest of the low points Rugby Canada and things looked pretty dire. There was no identity, there was no vision and there really was no future. But instead of a bunch of navel gazing and pontification on future professionalism that was all pie in the sky there were some hard decisions and some hard work and Canadian Rugby is definitely on an upswing that has no ceiling. The parochial infighting that existed has been a hindrance that has stunted our development but it would appear that that is behind us. I was, just today, speaking with an executive with BC Rugby and BC is fully on board with CRC and all that RC is doing. There was well over a thousand people in attendance for the BC High School Semi finals today and it was ******* rain and miserable. Were expecting sunshine through the weekend and we will have at least two thousand in attendance for the HS final. The quality of the Rugby was excellent also even though there will be no webcast. As I sat in the stands I certainly didn't get the feeling that the sun was setting on rugby in Canada. Thankfully RC has not wasted money on fancy and fine looking webcasts for fat, out of shape, props whose only hope of winning a significant prize is if they waddle on down to the local 7-11 and buy a box of "Cracker Jacks", but focused it's limited and precious resources on player development and the promotion grass roots rugby. As an example, just a few months ago 20 HS coaches, myself included, had access to NSMT coaches for a 6 hour coaching clinic free of charge. It is this kind of investment that will reap a harvest of players that may one day catapult us from Tier 2 status into the lofty heights of Tier 1. Not talking about prefessional rugby with no actual plan to get there. We have tremendous work ahead of us and are nowhere near where we need to be but we have definitely turned around from the abyss and heading into future with hope. Webcasts notwithstanding.

Spot on!

 

[LittleGuy]

A bit late, but attendance was a little over 3,000 for the game, which is fairly close to capacity for the small ground, but the walk up crowd and last minute sales declined a little due to the horrible conditions and prevented a sell out.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

A bit late, but attendance was a little over 3,000 for the game, which is fairly close to capacity for the small ground, but the walk up crowd and last minute sales declined a little due to the horrible conditions and prevented a sell out.

They are expecting 20,000 for the Ireland game which will be a new record