[EOYT] Portugal vs. Canada 23/11/13

[canadafan]

They finally realized that he is crap at XVs, thank god.

 

[LittleGuy]

What happen to Nate Hirayama for this tour???

Broke his leg during the last 7's event. Hopefully we'll be good to go for most of the 7's series though.

 

[Toko_11]

Will Canada and US play Geo/Rom again next year ? I've grown quite fond of these fixtures it's way more fun than watching Geo vs Romania all the time and I'm sure Canadians feel the same way about playing USA OVER and Over and over and....

also you can measure your progress with this from year to year. I think these teams are very much in the same bracket, for example if you made a tournament with 4 of them you could never guess who would come out on top. unpredictability makes it all the more exciting! Its a pity they won't let us play in the Pacific Nations cup -_- that would solve soo many problems at once!

 

[LittleGuy]

Will Canada and US play Geo/Rom again next year ? I've grown quite fond of these fixtures it's way more fun than watching Geo vs Romania all the time and I'm sure Canadians feel the same way about playing USA OVER and Over and over and....

also you can measure your progress with this from year to year. I think these teams are very much in the same bracket, for example if you made a tournament with 4 of them you could never guess who would come out on top. unpredictability makes it all the more exciting! Its a pity they won't let us play in the Pacific Nations cup -_- that would solve soo many problems at once!

I'm really not sure Toko, I know are June schedule is lined up again, with Scotland visiting here June 14th, Japan visiting at around the same time for PNC. We also have our other PNC matchups, so that fills up the Spring schedule. I haven't heard anything at all about next November, other than a few Tier One sides have filled up their fixture list and we won't be playing them.

I wouldn't rule out another test vs. Georgia next year. Maybe Belgium and Spain will be brought into the mix as well, and there were some hints the Maori game might be done again, but nothing settled.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

I'm really not sure Toko, I know are June schedule is lined up again, with Scotland visiting here June 14th, Japan visiting at around the same time for PNC. We also have our other PNC matchups, so that fills up the Spring schedule. I haven't heard anything at all about next November, other than a few Tier One sides have filled up their fixture list and we won't be playing them.

I wouldn't rule out another test vs. Georgia next year. Maybe Belgium and Spain will be brought into the mix as well, and there were some hints the Maori game might be done again, but nothing settled.

I hope they don't do the Maori game again next year. If they do I want to see them host it during the actual test window so we can have our best players released. It is not worth it if we throw our B-Side out against them. I also wouldn't mind if we played someone like Argentina in November at home, prior to heading over for a European tour.

 

[LittleGuy]

I hope they don't do the Maori game again next year. If they do I want to see them host it during the actual test window so we can have our best players released. It is not worth it if we throw our B-Side out against them. I also wouldn't mind if we played someone like Argentina in November at home, prior to heading over for a European tour.

We also had to face Georgia on slightly shorter rest, and without Carpenter and Wooldridge who got hurt in what was really a glorified exhibition game.

 

[Frank Tilson]

How was that there B side?? The game was good to have and the revenue good for Canada

 

[LittleGuy]

How was that there B side?? The game was good to have and the revenue good for Canada

I agree on the revenue and it was great to see the turnout from the fans, but we were missing a pile of 1st/2nd choice players due to them not being released by their clubs eg. Pritchard, Sinclair, Macenzie, Beukeboom. In fact we were lucky to get Ardron and Hassler released by the Ospreys and we had to not play them against Portugal because of it.

I really think with a 1st choice lineup it would have gone down to the wire, as it is I'm very glad the game was reasonably competitive I was worried to death we would get destroyed in front of such a large crowd and television audience but the boys held up till late when the Maori pulled away.

 

[Frank Tilson]

Only two of those players consistently start (Pritchard Sinclair) Two guys dont change the dynamic that much. They are top players but thats not a 2nd choice team 2/23 mathematically doesnt make the team that much weaker. For argument sakes lets say 4/23 (Marshall and Beukeboom) it still isnt a 2nd rate team. The last play of the game was a try to Maori because of a overthrow from Carpenter and a knock on gone undetected by the ref earlier that lead to a try. Game easily should be 26-15

 

[LittleGuy]

It's certainly not our full strength side, compared to the rest of the November tour it wasn't that bad at all because we were missing a pile of these pro's for all the other matches. But having this game again outside the test window and this would likey be close to our best possible team again(if Osprey's are generous enough to release Ardron and Hassler and Pirates with Evans and Carpenter). If we hadn't gotten some love from those clubs we could have gone into the Maori side with pretty much our ARC lineup which struggled beating a young Uruguay side. It was a very risky decision to have the game, we really could have been thrashed had, Hassler, Ardron, Evans, Carpenter and Phelan not been released. Even Buydens we lucked out that Manawatu didn't make an ITM cup final or he would have been heavily fatigued from travel.

Our Maori side

1- Hubert Buydens, 1st
2- Ray Barkwill, 1st or maybe 2nd
3- Doug Wooldridge, 2nd
4- Jon Phelan, 3rd maybe 4th
5- Tyler Ardron, 1st(but out of position here at lock he'd usually be like 5th or 6th)
6- Nanyak Dala, 2nd
7- John Moonlight, 2nd possibly 1st I'll grant
8- Aaron Carpenter, Captain, 1st
9- Phil Mack, 1st
10- Liam Underwood, 1st (I would think, we are fairly dour here)
11- Conor Trainor, 2nd (possibly even lower now has been quiet lately and is usually at CT)
12- Harry Jones, 3rd (2nd at FH lower at CT)
13- Ciaran Hearn, 2nd (arguably 1st against weaker opp.)
14- Jeff Hassler, 1st
15- Matt Evans, 1st (maybe 2nd)

Bench

16- Jake Ilnicki, 4th (not even a specialist Hooker, Carpenter had to fill in for Barkwill)
17- Ryan March, 5th?
18- Aaron Flagg, 5th
19- Kyle Gilmour, 5th
20- Adam Kleeberger, 3rd (has been higher in past but recovering from injury)
21- Jamie Mackenzie, 2nd
22- Pat Parfrey, 5th
23. Connor Braid, 4th (maybe higher at FH )

My summaration, starters sort of at B+ maybe even A-, with possibly the weakest bench I've ever seen Canada put out in a match (outside of 20, 21)

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

Only two of those players consistently start (Pritchard Sinclair) Two guys dont change the dynamic that much. They are top players but thats not a 2nd choice team 2/23 mathematically doesnt make the team that much weaker. For argument sakes lets say 4/23 (Marshall and Beukeboom) it still isnt a 2nd rate team. The last play of the game was a try to Maori because of a overthrow from Carpenter and a knock on gone undetected by the ref earlier that lead to a try. Game easily should be 26-15

Frank, I agree with you that the money made by Rugby Canada from hosting this match is good for the sport; however, we should not be doing this match every year unless we are able to have our best players released by their respective clubs for the match. Also I don't think we should play the Maori more then once every few years as the gimmick will quickly get old and I would argue that we would struggle to sell-out again if we host them in Toronto again next year.

On the notion that this was not a second-rate team. I would respectfully disagree with you on this front. While we did manage to acquire the services of some of our professionals (thank god or I don't even want to know what the score would have been) the team was nowhere near full-strength.

We were missing:
Forwards:

Jason Marshall (His presence raises the potency of the scrum immensely)
Ryan Hamilton (If healthy he is ahead of Barkwill)
Jamie Cudmore (Hardly ever gets released but he is our 1st choice come World Cup time)
Tyler Hotson (Our other key piece in the 2nd-row)
Brett Beukeboom (Would do well coming off our bench)
Jebb Sinclair (He is an immense presence and missing him against a team like the Maori cost us dearly)
Tom Doelzel (Out injured but better then any guy we had on the bench)
Andrew Tiedemann (Also better then any guy we had on the bench)

Backs

DTH Van Der Merwe (Our best back)
Phil Mackenzie (Our 2nd/3rd best back and a great strike weapon)
James Pritchard (Our 1st choice goal-kicker and an all around awesome player)
Taylor Paris (Not starter but would be good off the bench as a strike weapon)


Honestly out of the guys we started the only ones I would consider as 1st team guys were:

1. Buydens
5. Ardron
8. Carpenter
9. Mack
14. Hassler
15. Evans

Everyone else was second string or on the bench normally

Ideal team would be

1. Hubert Buydens
2. Ryan Hamilton
3. Jason Marshall
4. Jamie Cudmore
5. Tyler Hotson
6. Jebb Sinclair
7. Tyler Ardron
8. Aaron Carpenter
9. Phil Mack
10. Liam Underwood
11. Matt Evans
12. Phil Mackenzie
13. DTH Van Der Merwe
14. Jeff Hassler
15. James Pritchard

16. Doug Wooldridge
17. Andrew Tiedemann
18. Ray Barkwill
19. Brett Beukeboom
20. John Moonlight or Nanyak Dala
21. Jamie Mackenzie
22. Harry Jones
23. Ciaran Hearn

 

[Frank Tilson]

Im not blind to the fact that a forum is an opportunity to discuss and debate some issues but I guess when reading post it almost sounds like a "Monday morning Quarterback syndrome" thing. I don't have enough knowledge on every player and there abilities, yet Im sure that not all the men posting on these forums are or were all high level head coaches or players at one time either. I have played some college rugby and club in Canada and have no problem admitting that I know little. I would feel that only people who have coached or played at that level would carry this type of understanding. I guess I wonder what some guys get all worked up about, because Im sure the gentleman on this forum may have some years of experience but surely its not at the world class stage or is it??

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

Im not blind to the fact that a forum is an opportunity to discuss and debate some issues but I guess when reading post it almost sounds like a "Monday morning Quarterback syndrome" thing. I don't have enough knowledge on every player and there abilities, yet Im sure that not all the men posting on these forums are or were all high level head coaches or players at one time either. I have played some college rugby and club in Canada and have no problem admitting that I know little. I would feel that only people who have coached or played at that level would carry this type of understanding. I guess I wonder what some guys get all worked up about, because Im sure the gentleman on this forum may have some years of experience but surely its not at the world class stage or is it??

Frank, the Canadian rugby community by and large know very little about professional rugby. Go down to any Canadian rugby club and ask some players to name our pro players and the professional competitions they play in over in Europe and you will struggle to find anyone with a semblance of knowledge. This is no fault of the person's in question, it is simply a lack of exposure to watching and observing, extremely high level rugby because we don't get it on the TV very often over in Canada and it isn't in our main-stream media.

As for what credentials people have on this forum to be giving opinions on rugby well it ranges from casual fans to high-level rugby players. If you want my credentials I played three years of high school rugby followed by three years of university rugby in Ontario and a number of seasons of men's club rugby. My military career has slightly derailed my ability to get out on the pitch now and play and I have had to take the past two seasons off due to lack of time but I plan on getting back into it this summer. I have been watching pro rugby since the year 2001 and like to think I am very knowledgeable about the Canadian rugby scene. I have been a member of this forum since 2004 and the benefit of this forum is that you will learn a lot about rugby all over the world and it will really expand your knowledge of the game outside of your home country. This forum also has some very, very knowledgeable members who know a lot about the sport of rugby.

Are we sometimes guilty of arm-chair quarterbacking on this forum? Of course we are, we are fans and it's what fans do; however, you will not find more knowledgeable fans of the Canadian rugby scene anywhere, that I can promise you. Enjoy the forum and use some of the members here from different parts of the world to expand your knowledge of the game and how it is played in the nations they hail from.

Cheers!

 

[Frank Tilson]

Well thats some valid points you have presented me there. My opinion is different I guess, and I just didnt think that a tier 2 nation had players or even fans that have the knowledge of international or professional rugby as much as a Irish or Kiwi person has on being a hockey fan in there respective countries (no matter how big of a fan there are) A culture difference one might say.
Also I guess I just find it hard to understand why you would be against the NZ All Black Maori returning even if some guys are not available.

1. It helps promote the game more in Canada.
2. It pushed the players that play in the game to a higher challenge instead of playing USA again.
3. Creates revenue for Rugby Canada that no other game does (I think its something like 23,000 tickets sold)
4. I would feel that it could create potential sponsorships with the exposure of a high profile game in Canada like that.

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

Well thats some valid points you have presented me there. My opinion is different I guess, and I just didnt think that a tier 2 nation had players or even fans that have the knowledge of international or professional rugby as much as a Irish or Kiwi person has on being a hockey fan in there respective countries (no matter how big of a fan there are) A culture difference one might say.
Also I guess I just find it hard to understand why you would be against the NZ All Black Maori returning even if some guys are not available.

1. It helps promote the game more in Canada.
2. It pushed the players that play in the game to a higher challenge instead of playing USA again.
3. Creates revenue for Rugby Canada that no other game does (I think its something like 23,000 tickets sold)
4. I would feel that it could create potential sponsorships with the exposure of a high profile game in Canada like that.

I agree that the Maori game was very good for promoting the game and was a good revenue generator for Rugby Canada. The problem I have with playing a team like the Maori every year is it is very gimmicky and I believe the allure and attraction won't necessarily be there if we do it every year. It is simple economics and I think if we do it too much the law of diminishing returns will quickly set in and you won't see the big crowds show up anymore or as often.

On top of this, we were forced to play the game outside the international release window which meant we couldn't play them with our best players. We were then forced to play Georgia in a real test match, not just an exhibition like the Maori game was, on very little rest and did not have time to settle in and train when we arrived in Tbilisi. Georgia is half-way around the world and it isn't exactly the easiest country to get to. How flat we came out in that match was a definite reflection of our limited preparation time and the wear and tear of the Maori game.

Lets face facts, the IRB international release windows aren't designed to suit the needs of tier-2 and tier-3 nations. We can't play rugby in Canada during the 6 Nations due to the climate and the Rugby Championship occurs right during the beginning of the European club rugby season so our team is forced to play during two time frames: June and November. June is now filled up with the Pacific Nations Cup and we usually get one test match against a Tier-1 side. In November we always tour Europe. What I would personally like to see happen is for the November tours alternate between North/South America & Pacific Nations and Europe every year and at least one tier-1 country tours Europe or North/South America & Pacific Nations to play Tier 2 countries when the tours occur in their home nation.

I will explain:

2014

Spring Season/June Tour:

North/South America/Pacific Nations

European Nations Cup - Europe
CONSUR Championship - South America
Pacific Nations Cup - North America/Pacific Nations

One Tier 1 game for each Tier 2 Country (Tier-2 at home against a Tier-1 Northern Hemisphere side)

Fall/November Tour:

European Nations to tour North/South America/Pacific Nations
One Tier 1 game for each Tier 2 Country in North/South America/Pacific Nations (tier-2 ar home against a Southern Hemisphere side)

2015

Spring Season/June Tour:

North/South America/Pacific Nations

European Nations Cup - Europe
CONSUR Championship - South America
Pacific Nations Cup - North America/Pacific Nations

One Tier 1 game for each Tier 2 Country (Tier-2 at home against a Tier-1 Northern Hemisphere side)

Fall/November Tour:

North/South America & Pacific Nations to tour Europe
One Tier 1 game for each Tier 2 country in Europe (Tier-2 at home against a Southern Hemisphere side)


I would envision the schedule looking something like this:

I will use Georgia as an example

2014:

Spring/Euro Nations Cup:

Georgia vs Romania
Georgia vs Russia
Georgia vs Spain
Georgia vs Portugal
Georgia vs Belgium
Georgia vs Wales

2014:

Fall/November Tour:

Georgia (Home) vs Canada
Georgia (Home) vs Japan
Georgia (Home) vs Australia

2015:

Spring/Euro Nations Cup:

Georgia vs Romania
Georgia vs Russia
Georgia vs Spain
Georgia vs Portugal
Georgia vs Belgium
Georgia vs Italy

Fall/November Tour:

Georgia (Away) vs Canada
Georgia (Away) vs United States
Georgia (Away) vs Uruguay

What a schedule like this would guarantee is the European Nations Cup and Pac Nations Cup would keep their present formats. Each Tier 2 nation would be guaranteed a game against a Tier 1 nation from the Northern Hemisphere (This could happen on a stop-over to the Southern Hemisphere) and in November Pac/American Nations would alternate hosting/touring every year. Southern Hemisphere Tier-1 nations would play Tier-2 nations as a stop-over to Europe.

The thing that makes international rugby appealing is the variety of teams that participate in the sport and the clash of style that occur when different sides compete against each other. As a neutral observer I am getting sick of watching England/France/Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy play a variation of New Zealand/South Africa/Australia/Argentina every year and would like to see more variety in the international schedule. i want to see tier-1 nations taken out of their comfort zones and forced to tour places like Georgia and Romania or be forced to come to Canada and the United States in November to play our teams. It will only serve to strengthen international rugby and will help grow the game in more markets. Some of the Tier-2 nations have shown this year that they are more the capable of competing with Tier-1 opposition and stealing victories so lets even the playing field and see how things turn out.

This is all just a pipe dream of mine but if we want rugby to go truly global we need to increase the competitiveness of the international game and this is one way we could achieve this.