Chris Jack

[Prestwick]

What the hell has any of that got to do with virtually exiling anyone who leaves the Southern Hemisphere as a "sell out" and thus way out of contention of any national squad?

Regardless of whether he is 100 miles of 100,000 miles away, Chris Jack should still be in contention for a place in the All Blacks. Period.

And the concept of European Clubs doing "anything in their power to stop any players, even English Players themselves from ever gaining another test cap" is the biggest pile of rubbish I've ever heard. Yes, they whinge, but only because the season is so poorly planned that International and National duty clash head on so, duh of course you're going to have contractual confusion and argument.

And the idea of every Club and province in Europe raping and pillaging New Zealand for every able bodied man, woman and child is something (especially with new rules about maximum foreign players being considered and the fact that European clubs frankly consider Spingbok players to be better suited to Europe) so far in the realms of fantasy it just sounds like another scare tactic to protect the five to ten top players at the top of the NZRFU. Oh wait, it is!

The fact still remains that the minute you go north, you're treated as though you are heading out to exile, never to return, when in reality, with the fact that Rugby, like anything else is a business and that the supply of labour should never be hindered. Scotland learnt that the hard way last week and so will the Southern Hemisphere if they do not drop their protectionist stance.

 

[esoj]

well it seems to be working for us at the moment. we have one of the best teams in world rugby at the moment. why? because the players are contracted to the country and not to the club. the all black jersey is placed so high that you have to ply your trade in nz to get the honour of wearing it. go outside nz if you want but then you do not get to wear the black jersey. also by keeping the top players in nz for internationa duty they also stay for the local comp which is only good.

compare this to the north where the local comp is filled with overseas players and the clubs control the players and therefore who can play in international games. nz fans know that when the abs play they can expect to see the best players play for every test but in the north this is simply not the case. I know which I prefer and it is the side that swept the lions 3-0 and got the grand slam.

 

[Prestwick]

You still haven't explained why exactly should someone be excluded from the international team because they wanted to play for a different team?

And the system only works so long as you can intimidate the players enough to stay home with the threat of losing a right to international duty. That only works for so long before they stick two fingers up to the Union and go to where the money is.

In Europe, we're not "flooded" with foreign players although we do have a fair many playing depending on your interpretation of "foreign." Remember, a Welsh player playing for an English team could be described as "foreign", in which case OMG! CLOSE TEH B0RD3R W1TH TEH WALEZ!

The fact of the matter is that the European leagues are open to certain factors which don't seem to have filtered through to the South yet. If you are a European citizen, you can work where-ever you damn well please within the EU (unless you're from Eastern Europe) and so, its so much easier to sign someone from, say, Ireland, Wales, Italy or France these days than it is to import guys from Argentina and the South these days.

The whole saga of buying over the hill Southern Hemisphere players is coming to a close, teams like Newcastle, Northampton, Cardiff Blues and Saracens got their fingers burnt buying in SH players who were way past their sell by date, Bristol notoriously screwed up on this a few years back.

These days though, teams are far more clever in how they spread their money around. They are far more likely to buy European players who are in form and are also tempting in form SH players with lots of cash, much more than the home union could offer them.

Rather than resulting in a fall in standards in Europe, the idea of trading players between unions has helped increase standards. Players who play in France, the ML and the English Premiership get to experience how each nation plays its game. You cannot deny that by having their players in the Top 14, the ML and the GP, Italy have not benefitted on the international stage.

Remember that under the exact same system that we have today, England won a world cup and rightfully claimed the number one spot as their own.

And still the lure of the international jersey is strong. Even the Argentinian players rally to the flag, whereever the hell they are. Guys, the Argentinians completed their seasons in England, Ireland and France and then flew down to Argentina to tear Wales a new one in the Summer tests last year! Jet lag and DVT be dammed! If that doesn't show dedication, nothing will and guess what? These guys all play in foreign domestic leagues!

The fact that neither Italy nor Argentina have a decent league of their own is irrelevent. It is because their home leagues are so poorly organised and held back by amateurist rhetoric that they are playing in France, in Ireland and in England.

The fact is that you lot down south are living in a dream world. A dream created by a poorly structured season and an almost RFU-esque belief that one can swim against the tide, no matter how strong.

In 1996, while the RFU was refusing to believe that Professionalism could happen when in fact, de-facto Professionalism was in operation in the South.

Ten years on, SANZAR refuse to believe that their players can play in foreign leagues AND still be rabidly loyal to the cause of international rugby when in fact, Argentina and Italy have been doing just that for the last decade.

All it has to take is one big name SANZAR star to decide to play in the North, and the whole house of cards comes crashing down.

 

[The TRUTH]

What a crock of ****, for a start, European Clubs, especially the English Clubs do anything in their power to stop any players, even English Players themselves from ever gaining another test cap, and secondly, the NZRFU don't want to have the same sort of situation as say Argentina where the Domestic Comp has no name players at all and is vastly devalued because they are all in Overseas Leagues, thus costing the NZRFU a truckload of cash.[/b]

Hit the nail on the head there

Also, there is the fact that the Tri-Nations and European season clash!

That being one of the major hurdles Argentina faces in joining the 3N, the fact that most of Argentina's top players are based in Europe, and, contractually, the best players may not be seen in the tournament.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotemain'>
What a crock of ****, for a start, European Clubs, especially the English Clubs do anything in their power to stop any players, even English Players themselves from ever gaining another test cap, and secondly, the NZRFU don't want to have the same sort of situation as say Argentina where the Domestic Comp has no name players at all and is vastly devalued because they are all in Overseas Leagues, thus costing the NZRFU a truckload of cash.[/b]

Hit the nail on the head there

Also, there is the fact that the Tri-Nations and European season clash!

That being one of the major hurdles Argentina faces in joining the 3N, the fact that most of Argentina's top players are based in Europe, and, contractually, the best players may not be seen in the tournament.
[/b][/quote]

Again the first point is rubbish because the situation in Argentina was not created by a mass exodus of players! It was created by the fact that the Agentinian Union still hold onto the idea that their domestic competition can be an amateur one. This is what is holding up the creation of a pan American super 14 at the momment. Thus, for the last twenty odd years, the cream of Argentinian talent has had literally nowhere to go to play in top flight rugby! The exodus abroad was inevitable not as a cause, but as an effect.

And no, the fault for the current problem tri nations clashing with Europe at the very last two weekends lies firmly with SANZAR for insisting on the stupid, three games each format of the tri nations.

In the last seven years, there have only been three years where the Tri Nations has clashed with the likes of the English Premiership and the Celtic/Magners League: 2001, 2005 and 2006. A grand total of four games could have been disrupted because of games happening up north. This is more down to organisational incompetence on the part of SANZAR rather than the northen leagues.

At the end of the day, this all comes down to one thing: schedualing. The rugby world needs a united system where no fixtures clash and thus where players can freely go to whichever club they choose.

I think the time has come for both North & South to play in the same time of year. Either the South plays between September and May or the North plays from Feb to May. Whatever happens, something has to be sorted out, competitions need to be shifted to different parts of the year and something has to give!

 

[jake the mus]

mate come on..new zealand has the best players, best compitition and best national team in the world. the only reason any of our players would leave is for money. if you want to know why we are the best its because all of our players play in nz under nz coaches with other nz players.
its all fun and games to dispute it but come on deep down you know the truith

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

mate come on..new zealand has the best players, best compitition and best national team in the world.[/b]

Only in the last 3 years.

Australia have no national competition to speak of below the Super 12/14, and yet in recent history they've won the World Cup more time than New Zealand. Go figure...

 

[esoj]

<div class='quotemain'>
mate come on..new zealand has the best players, best compitition and best national team in the world.[/b]

Only in the last 3 years.

Australia have no national competition to speak of below the Super 12/14, and yet in recent history they've won the World Cup more time than New Zealand. Go figure...
[/b][/quote]

the all blacks have the highest wining percentage out of any team in the history of the game. the world cup has indeed been elusive but the all blacks then have been in quite a few finals and semis and quite alot more than a lot of other teams.

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
mate come on..new zealand has the best players, best compitition and best national team in the world.[/b]

Only in the last 3 years.

Australia have no national competition to speak of below the Super 12/14, and yet in recent history they've won the World Cup more time than New Zealand. Go figure...
[/b][/quote]

the all blacks have the highest wining percentage out of any team in the history of the game. the world cup has indeed been elusive but the all blacks then have been in quite a few finals and semis and quite alot more than a lot of other teams.
[/b][/quote]

I'm not denying their long standing class, I'm just pointing out that New Zealand haven't totally dominated the game from its beginning through to the present day.

 

[Ripper]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
What a crock of ****, for a start, European Clubs, especially the English Clubs do anything in their power to stop any players, even English Players themselves from ever gaining another test cap, and secondly, the NZRFU don't want to have the same sort of situation as say Argentina where the Domestic Comp has no name players at all and is vastly devalued because they are all in Overseas Leagues, thus costing the NZRFU a truckload of cash.[/b]

Hit the nail on the head there

Also, there is the fact that the Tri-Nations and European season clash!

That being one of the major hurdles Argentina faces in joining the 3N, the fact that most of Argentina's top players are based in Europe, and, contractually, the best players may not be seen in the tournament.
[/b][/quote]

Again the first point is rubbish because the situation in Argentina was not created by a mass exodus of players! It was created by the fact that the Agentinian Union still hold onto the idea that their domestic competition can be an amateur one. This is what is holding up the creation of a pan American super 14 at the momment. Thus, for the last twenty odd years, the cream of Argentinian talent has had literally nowhere to go to play in top flight rugby! The exodus abroad was inevitable not as a cause, but as an effect.

And no, the fault for the current problem tri nations clashing with Europe at the very last two weekends lies firmly with SANZAR for insisting on the stupid, three games each format of the tri nations.

In the last seven years, there have only been three years where the Tri Nations has clashed with the likes of the English Premiership and the Celtic/Magners League: 2001, 2005 and 2006. A grand total of four games could have been disrupted because of games happening up north. This is more down to organisational incompetence on the part of SANZAR rather than the northen leagues.

At the end of the day, this all comes down to one thing: schedualing. The rugby world needs a united system where no fixtures clash and thus where players can freely go to whichever club they choose.

I think the time has come for both North & South to play in the same time of year. Either the South plays between September and May or the North plays from Feb to May. Whatever happens, something has to be sorted out, competitions need to be shifted to different parts of the year and something has to give!
[/b][/quote]

If that was to happen, you lot would have to charge, you can't expect us Southerners to have play in 42 degrees in the middle of an Australian summer just so you can sign up All Blacks, and once again, who is going to make up for the lost revenue the NZRFU will suffer?

 

[fcukernaut]

If that was to happen, you lot would have to charge, you can't expect us Southerners to have play in 42 degrees in the middle of an Australian summer just so you can sign up All Blacks, and once again, who is going to make up for the lost revenue the NZRFU will suffer?[/b]

That's the main problem here: New Zealand Unions will never be able to compete financially with European clubs. That's why they have the rule that if you go overseas you can't play for the All Blacks. It's the only card they have. It's so that New Zealand can have their best players stay in New Zealand and play in New Zealand. If they go you're not only depriving the New Zealand public of seeing the best players the nation has to offer, but you're also degrading the competition, thus dropping attendance and loss of revenue. Canterbury is a noteable exception to the rule but not every union is a player factory. The other way you could sort out the money issue was if there was some form of significant financial compensation. Almost to the point where is detrimental to acquire a player. As well more stringent transfer policies. This would assure that only top tier players like Carter and McCaw go, but the next tier down like an Aaron Mauger stay.

 

[C A Iversen]

Chris Jack has not been that awesome over the last year. Still good, although seemed to have lost his edge on the last end of year tour.

If he goes, it's partially 'cause he's bored IMO.

 

[cwans]

Chris JAck, like Mauger, is getting the case of - what's there after world cup glory? They know they either win it this year, or be too old for the next one.

Despite the contrary, we do have a wealth of locking depth cp to most NH countries.

If O-connell gets injured, name me another Munster lock thats capable of playing for IRELAND with his class.

New Zealand, if JAck gets injured, oh look, there is Flavell, Keith Robinson, Thorne, Ryan, Eaton... etc... etc etc...

These guys are leaving because they know there is not much else (motivation) to play for after u get the ultimate prize. The downside to NZ dominance of all the 'cUps' and tourneys over the last decade.

Crusaders only won Super rugby how many times? How many 'rings' do u want before u say, ok lets look after the dollar.

The only reason we havent seen a massive marquee crusaders exodus is because none of them have the rugby world cup.

 

[Ripper]

You forgot Ali Willaims on your little list.

 

[melon]

You forgot Ali Willaims on your little list. [/b]

I was thinking the same thing lol!...i'd actually put Ali ahead of Robinson and Ryan