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[COVID-19] General Discussion

Yulia said:
I don't like him anyway. And I think everyone pays too much attention to this case and this sportsman
Click to expand...

I am a big tennis fan, so was very interested in this particular case. Don't agree with Novak not getting vaccinated, but it was very interesting from my POV just from various issues involved - the Covid, vaccination, How Australia is dealing with it, difference between State and Federal rules. How administrative bodies mess up. Fathers comparing the treatment of their son to that of Jesus Christ. It was great reality tv.

Michael Jackson Reaction GIF
 
@The_Blindside I was talking in general,not about this forum.:) He gives a bad example in this case anyway and everyone keeps talking about him endlessly. "Novak Djokovic is here, Novak Djokovic is there, Djokovic's Dad compared Novak to Jesus, Jesus's Dad compared Novak to Jesus" etc etc etc on TV,here and almost everywhere now. I'm not a tennis fan and was thinking before that Novak and Djokovic are two different tennis players tbh and now I know everything about him. I think it's not good to pay a huuuge attention to someone who is such a bad example during pandemic..
 

www.bbc.co.uk

Novak Djokovic: How tennis player won visa row court case

Australia's legal defence collapsed on the evidence of the tennis player's treatment at the airport.
www.bbc.co.uk

He could still get kicked out. Judge found in his favour due to lack of reasonableness of the ABF's conduct in not granting him a right to reply.

See what the Minister of Home affairs say tomorrow or this week and whether he chooses to exercise his power to cancel his visa, if it is still deemed to be in the public interest.
 
The_Blindside said:
He could still get kicked out. Judge found in his favour due to lack of reasonableness of the ABF's conduct in not granting him a right to reply.
Click to expand...
I'm amazed this is a defence that washed and true money talks speak. I've had colleagues almost deported for not having a letter explicitly stating they are employed in the UK and are working as part of that employment in Canada for a brief time. Even thought they've been granted a visa for that purpose. Vaccination certificates for things like Yellow Fever were even more important. Australia has a way more infamous border control than Canada (and Canada is the worst I've been to including USA and Singapore)

If Novak followed the rules and should of been allowed in by all means its a **** up by the official. Otherwise I struggle to think no matter badly handled by the border guard anyone else who would of been treated as well.

Literally I love international travel when I get to do it but outside the EU border control is my most nervous time. Even when I've researched and made sure I have all the correct documentation.
 
Which Tyler said:
What about the next variant though?
Omicron is not the last we've seen of this thing.
Click to expand...
This is true. The future is somewhat uncertain given Covid-19 is distinct to flu and may therefore have it's own behaviour. From a brief scan of the internet it appears that measles is measles -- year in, year out pretty much it is the same dominant strain since 1954. So the vaccine you got as a kid provides protection for ages and if enough people are vaccinated then serious measle outbreaks will be few and far between. On the other hand flu has loads of annual variants out a selection of 60 (which can occasionally grow), hence the requirement for annual jags. Which will Covid be? Or will it be something different? The above is very speculative on my par and possibly completely misinformed!

But I think it is reasonable to conclude that a variant will in all likelihood have to be more contagious than the resident variant in order to replace it. And, that the more infectious the variant, the harder it will therefore be to displace and the longer (on average) it will take for such a variant to arise.

- Alpha, Delta and Omicron all went global.

- Delta appeared seven months after Alpha (albeit far less than 7 months after Alpha became dominant in India) and was more transmissable, so effectively eliminated Alpha.

- Omicron appeared seven months after Delta started to become dominant globally (almost double the time for a new, more transmissible variant to emerge) and is predicted to effectively eliminate Delta.

Extremely limited data (and I'm not involved in medicine) but consistent with what is considered by many as they way variants compete with each other. Therefore, if I was a betting man I'd guess Omicron will have its moment in the sun for 7 months minimum, but potentially for far longer because the transmissability is off the scale and it may be able to reinfect. So displacing it is going to be a far harder challenge for the virus than displacing Delta and Alpha which were less contagious and less likely to reinfect. So potentially, like measles, it could be Omicron forever (or 65 years and counting in the case of measles)

What we do

www.who.int www.who.int

Plus, Omicron is so infectious it'll do a far better job of immunising the non-vulnerable population of the world than any vaccine programme possibly could. So, if a new variant does arise at least a very high proportion of immune systems globally will have been exposed to something similar. So we should avoid the requirement for such robust measures by states.

Of course Covid-19 might have a twist in the tale that makes all the above utter hogwash. Or we might get a completely different pandemic of a totally different disease. But I think it is generally a healthy approach to life to try not to be concerned about what 'might' happen. Whereas every development post-Wuhan up until Omicron 'was likely' to happen and therefore was very much worth being concerned about.

To be a negative ninny and play Devil's Advocate, my main fear around Omicron would be if it stayed the same but changed slightly to once again attack deep in the chest, rather than the upper respiratory areas. As a veteran of many a sniffle, if you get a cold that is kept above the shoulders, rarely will you miss a day of work. But a cold that gets into your chest can floor you and often require antibiotics. Yet I imagine both colds may be very similar (or even identical) if put under the microscope. I would add I've read nothing to suggest Omicron could modify in this way and there is zero indication globally that it has done so.
 
ncurd said:
I'm amazed this is a defence that washed and true money talks speak. I've had colleagues almost deported for not having a letter explicitly stating they are employed in the UK and are working as part of that employment in Canada for a brief time. Even thought they've been granted a visa for that purpose. Vaccination certificates for things like Yellow Fever were even more important. Australia has a way more infamous border control than Canada (and Canada is the worst I've been to including USA and Singapore)

If Novak followed the rules and should of been allowed in by all means its a **** up by the official. Otherwise I struggle to think no matter badly handled by the border guard anyone else who would of been treated as well.

Literally I love international travel when I get to do it but outside the EU border control is my most nervous time. Even when I've researched and made sure I have all the correct documentation.
Click to expand...
This is what I think. Part of the decision was based on who he was and the lawyers he could afford. How many other people who try to enter Australia are treated the same and don't get the same outcome. I don't think that judge is good enough if he can't be neutral.
 
ncurd said:
I'm amazed this is a defence that washed and true money talks speak. I've had colleagues almost deported for not having a letter explicitly stating they are employed in the UK and are working as part of that employment in Canada for a brief time. Even thought they've been granted a visa for that purpose. Vaccination certificates for things like Yellow Fever were even more important. Australia has a way more infamous border control than Canada (and Canada is the worst I've been to including USA and Singapore)

If Novak followed the rules and should of been allowed in by all means its a **** up by the official. Otherwise I struggle to think no matter badly handled by the border guard anyone else who would of been treated as well.

Literally I love international travel when I get to do it but outside the EU border control is my most nervous time. Even when I've researched and made sure I have all the correct documentation.
Click to expand...
Oh absolutely. One of The worse aspects of the outcome of yesterday for me is Novak coming out of this as some kind of martyr held up as a victory for truth and justice. When it was nothing of the sort. It also highlighted those refugees who are stuck in the detention hotel who have no choice to leave.

The press conference yesterday by his family left a bit of a sour taste as well and no doubt even after this Novak will refuse to answer questions on his positive PCR test and what he was doing out and about maskless and spreading it. And Nigel F'ing Farage getting involved and claiming some kind of victory. Murray rightly pointing out the hypocrisy of that.

For me he definitely also contributed to this whole mess, but he and his family are not willing to take one bit if responsibility for it and worst still paint him entirely as the victim of persecution.

Not to say he wasn't treated badly from issuing the visa and when he got off the plane, but as you said no different to anyone else who had the wrong paperwork in that regard.

Still, no word from this Alex Hawke whether he plans to exercise his powers.

Edit: what the judgement didn't clear up is the Federal Government's rule that a positive test in the last 6 months is not a medical exemption from being fully vaccinated to enter Australia. That is still the crux of the issue now and we know Novak is not fully vaccinated.
 
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Reiser99 said:
This is what I think. Part of the decision was based on who he was and the lawyers he could afford. How many other people who try to enter Australia are treated the same and don't get the same outcome. I don't think that judge is good enough if he can't be neutral.
Click to expand...
Yep, the Czech player Renata Voráčová having entered Australia and played a tournament there on same medical exemption as Novak was forced to leave mainly because she didn't have Novak's wealth and prestige to appeal.
 
Bruce_ma_goosevili said:
This is true. The future is somewhat uncertain given Covid-19 is distinct to flu and may therefore have it's own behaviour. From a brief scan of the internet it appears that measles is measles -- year in, year out pretty much it is the same dominant strain since 1954. So the vaccine you got as a kid provides protection for ages and if enough people are vaccinated then serious measle outbreaks will be few and far between. On the other hand flu has loads of annual variants out a selection of 60 (which can occasionally grow), hence the requirement for annual jags. Which will Covid be? Or will it be something different? The above is very speculative on my par and possibly completely misinformed!

But I think it is reasonable to conclude that a variant will in all likelihood have to be more contagious than the resident variant in order to replace it. And, that the more infectious the variant, the harder it will therefore be to displace and the longer (on average) it will take for such a variant to arise.

- Alpha, Delta and Omicron all went global.

- Delta appeared seven months after Alpha (albeit far less than 7 months after Alpha became dominant in India) and was more transmissable, so effectively eliminated Alpha.

- Omicron appeared seven months after Delta started to become dominant globally (almost double the time for a new, more transmissible variant to emerge) and is predicted to effectively eliminate Delta.

Extremely limited data (and I'm not involved in medicine) but consistent with what is considered by many as they way variants compete with each other. Therefore, if I was a betting man I'd guess Omicron will have its moment in the sun for 7 months minimum, but potentially for far longer because the transmissability is off the scale and it may be able to reinfect. So displacing it is going to be a far harder challenge for the virus than displacing Delta and Alpha which were less contagious and less likely to reinfect. So potentially, like measles, it could be Omicron forever (or 65 years and counting in the case of measles)

What we do

www.who.int www.who.int

Plus, Omicron is so infectious it'll do a far better job of immunising the non-vulnerable population of the world than any vaccine programme possibly could. So, if a new variant does arise at least a very high proportion of immune systems globally will have been exposed to something similar. So we should avoid the requirement for such robust measures by states.

Of course Covid-19 might have a twist in the tale that makes all the above utter hogwash. Or we might get a completely different pandemic of a totally different disease. But I think it is generally a healthy approach to life to try not to be concerned about what 'might' happen. Whereas every development post-Wuhan up until Omicron 'was likely' to happen and therefore was very much worth being concerned about.

To be a negative ninny and play Devil's Advocate, my main fear around Omicron would be if it stayed the same but changed slightly to once again attack deep in the chest, rather than the upper respiratory areas. As a veteran of many a sniffle, if you get a cold that is kept above the shoulders, rarely will you miss a day of work. But a cold that gets into your chest can floor you and often require antibiotics. Yet I imagine both colds may be very similar (or even identical) if put under the microscope. I would add I've read nothing to suggest Omicron could modify in this way and there is zero indication globally that it has done so.
Click to expand...
www.theguardian.com

Will Covid-19 become less dangerous as it evolves?

Analysis: experts warn that viral evolution is not a one-way street and a continuing fall in virulence cannot be taken for granted
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Yulia said:
@The_Blindside I was talking in general,not about this forum.:) He gives a bad example in this case anyway and everyone keeps talking about him endlessly. "Novak Djokovic is here, Novak Djokovic is there, Djokovic's Dad compared Novak to Jesus, Jesus's Dad compared Novak to Jesus" etc etc etc on TV,here and almost everywhere now. I'm not a tennis fan and was thinking before that Novak and Djokovic are two different tennis players tbh and now I know everything about him. I think it's not good to pay a huuuge attention to someone who is such a bad example during pandemic..
Click to expand...
Yeh, maybe as you're not a tennis fan you have less interest in this case. Would you be more interested if it was rugby or another sport you are interested in?

But I think it generally it boils down to consistency of application of rules to Covid to so called political elite and those in privileged position. This is just one very prominent example.

Here in the UK we have this with the whole
10 Downing Street parties during the first lockdown and also 2020 Xmas. The whole "one rule for them, one rule for the rest" and just feeds into feelings of unfair application of rules. I think generally people do follow them if they know why they need to be created and can see that it is applied fairly.

Novak Djokovic is a divisive figure even in the tennis world despite being a brilliant player who could go down as the best in terms of stats. FYI there was a former Czech player called Jiří Novák. Maybe that's where you got confused?
 
The_Blindside said:
www.theguardian.com

Will Covid-19 become less dangerous as it evolves?

Analysis: experts warn that viral evolution is not a one-way street and a continuing fall in virulence cannot be taken for granted
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
It's a fair enough article, but I think it is creating a bit of a false argument. I've not read anyone coherent say it is guaranteed any future strains will be milder. What people like me are saying is that Omicron represents a superb opportunity to get almost the whole world to acquire some degree of immunity / resistance to Covid-19 with a mortality rate comparable to flu (and likely lower than a really bad flu). Ergo, why not respond to it like flu, with vaccination in the winter and no action in spring, summer and autumn where we let it spread and effectively help innoculate the population before the next winter. If society is happy with no restrictions with a flu, why would it clamour for restrictions around a disease with comparable mortality rates?

Clearly this was not an option with more lethal earlier strains, so even those who are pessimistic and think a worse strain might arrive should be sympathetic of trying to 'make hay while the sun shines' with Omicron when we are out of the depths of winter? This action will likely assist on a global scale against any hypothetical more dangerous future strain.
 
I've read/ heard plenty who assume future variants will become milder. We also still don't know if Omicron is inherently "milder" (WHO disagree it should be classed as such) or the decreased severity/hospitalisation is due to the already existing immunity from vaccination and previous natural infection. This is because it is such a new variant and the data is ongoing. Immunity from both will wane over time,

Also, Covid is still a bigger killer than flu in terms of mortality and its knock on effects on society. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/11/uk-covid-death-toll-ons

At what point do we say it is now beneficial to be infected naturally so that each time we catch it it does become milder due to the level of immunity in our population. Because basically whether it is milder depends on our individual and general population's level of immunity. That question hasn't been asked as far as I know in a safe controlled way. For me that means no longer wearing an FFP2 mask in congregate indoor/outdoor settings.

Annual shots - yes a combined flu/Covid booster each winter would be my guess. But those not vulnerable may have to pay for this.
 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59873833.amp

Big fan of Macron and I back this. Extremely political move but a precedent for the social exclusion of those going against public health advice is only a good thing when the number of people refusing to vaccinate against more dangerous diseases than covid and putting children at a greater risk is growing.
 
Le Frére Alpha said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59873833.amp

Big fan of Macron and I back this. Extremely political move but a precedent for the social exclusion of those going against public health advice is only a good thing when the number of people refusing to vaccinate against more dangerous diseases than covid and putting children at a greater risk is growing.
Click to expand...
Yes, it is just a politician in campaign season in an ageing society pandering to the 'grey vote'. He had to get the statement out there before Omicron removed that card from his arsenal. Fully agree with his sentiment pre-Omicron.

Enforcement of Covid laws in Scotland has been nearly non-existent. To the extent a relative of mine took footage of police in May 2020 hugging mourners at an impromptu outdoor wake for a young fireman had reportedly drowned at an illegal outdoor drunken gathering. So the police did nothing about the illegal gathering, nothing about the illegal wake and were then caught on film hugging mourners. It was hypocritical conduct befitting a Tory government minister, not the impartial arbiters of the law.
 
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