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Good to see a few Chiefs lads in there, especially big Rus who I went to school with.
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Help Support The Rugby Forum :
England EPS 2017/18 edition.
- Thread starter LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)
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U18 squad:
Tigers unbeaten in the northern conference only have two players, Sale who finished 3rd have 8.
What BS is this.
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Who are the Chiefs lads (other than Maunder)? I only tend to get to hear about them when they get loaned out.
It's depressing to hear you say you went to school with one of these lads. There are now far too many players in the game whose fathers I remember playing!
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LOL.
I'm not worried Sale usually have about 50 in the U18 and then 2/3 only make it to the U20's
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Capstick (Flanker/Lock) and Petch (Prop) are both Chiefs boys.
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Going to do a player appraisal/EPS rundown. Been a long time since I've been bothered to do one... it's a wider critique than just yesterday's loss.
1. Mako Vunipola - Played OK. Managed to hold his own against Slimani, which isn't to be sniffed at. Clearly deserving of a spot in the 23.
2. Jamie George - Meh... did what I thought he probably would. He's an OK player, I've just never seen what he brings to the party outside of his dependable set-piece. That's not do disregard that, but I think people overstate his ability in the loose. Glad to have him in the EPS.
3. Dan Cole - Was probably my favorite player in the world in 2011. A shadow of his former self; he's always been a fairly traditional prop. But in his prime he was an offensive scrummager and outstanding jackaller. He is neither of those things now. He simply cannot justify his place in the side with his lack of attributes around the park.
4. Launchbury - Not his greatest game. His first two games in this year's tournament were great, very impactful. Since then he's been nigh on anonymous. A shame.
5. Itoje - Nowhere near his game-changing best. But I think this is possibly due to fatigue as much as anything else. Still disruptive and a huge workrate.
6. Lawes - Has actually been playing well; big workrate and making quite a bit of ground. Very imposing against the French lineout.
7. Robshaw - Continues to do what he does. Technically proficient, very hard working. Lacks physicality in all areas - he's not the most dynamic athlete the world has ever seen.
8. Hughes - Meh, he's a decent "big 8".
9. Care - He's demonstrated that he's not able to make as much impact as a starter as he can as a "finisher". Perhaps being told not to snipe?
10. Ford - Was seemingly unable to impose himself on the game, always difficult when there's next to no momentum to carry from the forward carries... but I would have hoped he'd be able to bring his excellent territorial kicking to bear. Thrown around in defence.
11. May - Does exactly what he always does. He's that kid at school that was really fast.
12. Farrell - Par for the course. His defence works well provided that the forwards are tackling hard and at least partially slowing the ball... Can't really see anyone pushing to break up the 10/12 axis.
13. Te'o - Did OK.
14. Daly - Did OK. I've always rated him (whilst not being a cheerleader), and I'm very happy with him on the wing, and potentially at FB.
15. Watson - Did OK. The tackle he made shouldn't be illegal, IMO. Made a pass Brown would very possibly have fudged. Would like him to continue at FB.
16. LCD - Did very well. Extremely skilful, dynamic and physical player. Clearly nervous/unsure at the linout and went into Chiefs mode with a pick and go around the corner - to be expected when this was his first week in the camp, really. He's one of the most talented English players for years and should be groomed for the starting berth. I understand he's been injured, but even so... he's clearly head and shoulders above the competiton, IMO.
17. Marler - Did OK. He's fairly consistent for England - very physical defence and ruck work, OK carrying, not unskilled. Definitely deserving of a place in the EPS.
18. Sinckler - Huge impact. Much like LCD, he's very talented; a great athlete, skilful and physical. Should always be in the 23 if fit.
19. Haskell - Did well. Carried, tackled and rucked hard - as a blindside should. We have people who can do this job better, however, IMO.
20. Simmonds - Also did well. Been fairly consistent in this championship, in a pack that is correctly balanced, he's a weapon (at 6 or 8, potentially).
21. Wigglesworth - Did OK. Shouldn't really be in the squad... but c'est la vie...
22. Joseph - Did OK. Not as deadly as he was when he first came in.
23. Brown - Did OK.
We're blessed at LH, truly. It's horses for courses between Mako, Joe and Ellis, with Hepburn, Obano and Boyce (amongst other youngsters) coming along nicely. Not much to worry about here, IMO.
Just a word on Hartley/Hooker... I completely understand Jones' reasoning behind his inclusion. But as an outsider, my observation would be that Dylan's a great leader in the context of a squad/team.... but not necessarily as an on field "general".
I really do not think this quality can justify his inclusion. Following that; LCD has to be brought through. He's too good to not be playing. George and Tommy Taylor are the two players I'd have behind LCD in the EPS.
On Dan Cole/TH... whilst we don't have quite the depth we have at LH, we have decent options. Sinckler is fantastic and Williams is pretty good (his ruck work is particularly attractive at this moment).
Second row is very tricky. I'll start off by stating that I'm fairly firmly of the opinion you need one TH lock and one LH lock. And also that except for very, very unusual cases, locks are locks, and flankers are flankers.
I'll divide up who I see as the TH's/LH's, in case it's unclear.
TH: Launchbury, Isiekwe, Kruis
LH: Lawes, Itoje
Primarily, this impacts scrummaging, but secondarily your TH is naturally going to be a better carrier in the tight, but perhaps sacrifices a little dynamism around the park.
I really like Launch, but one of his weaknesses is the lineout... he's not bad, but he's also not really shown any great ability there. Isiekwe, on the other hand, has... a lot.
I think that Isiekwe could become an understated world class player. He's naturally very strong, without needing to be so big that he becomes lumbering, and he's very technically proficient in pretty much all areas.
Lawes and Itoje comes down to who's in form at the time, and you can only pick one of them. Both of them in the 2nd row together is asking a lot of your front row, and we do not have the scrummagers required to facilitate that, IMO.
None of those players should be starting at 6, with the very possible exception of Kruis, although I don't see him being a better blindside that any of our available 6's so its a moot point.
Generally, I'd prefer Itoje, simply because I think he's a better scrummager and tight carrier than Courtney. But as I say, this is mostly a question of form.
I don't really think there's anyone outside of the EPS worth considering.
Blindside. As I've said in other threads, this position demands extreme physicality; It's probably the most singularly abrasive position in the game.
Fundamentally, guys with the physique of Lawes and Itoje are not suited to this position. Sure, they can cover it from the bench to provide more flexibility, but not as starters.
We need someone who will absolutely ******* lamp anything that is stupid enough to come within a few feet of them. The guys I'd consider for this role are Underhill, Ewers, Armand, Willis. (In that order).
The big benefit of Ewers, is the pressure he takes off the 8 as the primary ball carrier. Although all of those guys are decent tight carriers.
Openside. We've actually got decent depth here. For the sake of argument I'm going to include Robshaw here, even though he lies somewhere between the two positions. Who I think should be in the EPS: Robshaw, Kvesic, Curry's.
I'll preface this by saying that Robshaw is fantastic if the rest of the pack is balanced appropriately. And who I'd pick here would depend entirely on said balance.
Number 8. Billy. He's fantastic, and I hope he can stay fit in the future. I think he's a good enough ball carrier that you can sacrifice physicality elsewhere in the pack for other attributes, when he's playing. I don't necessarily think you have to do that though. A pack that also includes other physical players when he's playing will enhance his ball carrying impact. If we had other proper metre-eaters like Billy, I'd say it'd be ok to structure our gameplan that way, but we don't, so we shouldn't.
We need to distribute the physicality more evenly around the pack - which means Hughes, Simmonds and Mercer can all be more effective.
Scrum Half. I think most people are on the same page here. Youngs (as frustrating as he may be sometimes) was working very well for this team, as was Care as a finisher. Robson should have been training with the squad. Care doesn't seem to be as effective as a starter.
Fly Half. I'm happy with Ford, quite frankly... and so too with Smith as an apprentice.
Inside Centre. I'm also fairly happy with Farrell here. Loz and Slade as potential replacements for Owen as 2 5/8's, Manu and Te'o if we want/need to change style.
Outside Centre. Not unhappy, but not entirely sure who the best player here is, my gut says it's a JJ style player, but both he and Te'o have been effective and ineffective.
Wings. No major issues here. I do think Nowell should be a nailed on starter, however. Nowell, Watson, Daly, Earle, May are who I'd have. With Cokanasiga possibly coming in dependent on form, to offer a different option.
FB. I think Watson should continue, with Brown being a backup to him and Daly.
Clearly, balance is important, so there's a degree of leeway with all of what I've said. There are dozens of potential selections.
1. Mako Vunipola - Played OK. Managed to hold his own against Slimani, which isn't to be sniffed at. Clearly deserving of a spot in the 23.
2. Jamie George - Meh... did what I thought he probably would. He's an OK player, I've just never seen what he brings to the party outside of his dependable set-piece. That's not do disregard that, but I think people overstate his ability in the loose. Glad to have him in the EPS.
3. Dan Cole - Was probably my favorite player in the world in 2011. A shadow of his former self; he's always been a fairly traditional prop. But in his prime he was an offensive scrummager and outstanding jackaller. He is neither of those things now. He simply cannot justify his place in the side with his lack of attributes around the park.
4. Launchbury - Not his greatest game. His first two games in this year's tournament were great, very impactful. Since then he's been nigh on anonymous. A shame.
5. Itoje - Nowhere near his game-changing best. But I think this is possibly due to fatigue as much as anything else. Still disruptive and a huge workrate.
6. Lawes - Has actually been playing well; big workrate and making quite a bit of ground. Very imposing against the French lineout.
7. Robshaw - Continues to do what he does. Technically proficient, very hard working. Lacks physicality in all areas - he's not the most dynamic athlete the world has ever seen.
8. Hughes - Meh, he's a decent "big 8".
9. Care - He's demonstrated that he's not able to make as much impact as a starter as he can as a "finisher". Perhaps being told not to snipe?
10. Ford - Was seemingly unable to impose himself on the game, always difficult when there's next to no momentum to carry from the forward carries... but I would have hoped he'd be able to bring his excellent territorial kicking to bear. Thrown around in defence.
11. May - Does exactly what he always does. He's that kid at school that was really fast.
12. Farrell - Par for the course. His defence works well provided that the forwards are tackling hard and at least partially slowing the ball... Can't really see anyone pushing to break up the 10/12 axis.
13. Te'o - Did OK.
14. Daly - Did OK. I've always rated him (whilst not being a cheerleader), and I'm very happy with him on the wing, and potentially at FB.
15. Watson - Did OK. The tackle he made shouldn't be illegal, IMO. Made a pass Brown would very possibly have fudged. Would like him to continue at FB.
16. LCD - Did very well. Extremely skilful, dynamic and physical player. Clearly nervous/unsure at the linout and went into Chiefs mode with a pick and go around the corner - to be expected when this was his first week in the camp, really. He's one of the most talented English players for years and should be groomed for the starting berth. I understand he's been injured, but even so... he's clearly head and shoulders above the competiton, IMO.
17. Marler - Did OK. He's fairly consistent for England - very physical defence and ruck work, OK carrying, not unskilled. Definitely deserving of a place in the EPS.
18. Sinckler - Huge impact. Much like LCD, he's very talented; a great athlete, skilful and physical. Should always be in the 23 if fit.
19. Haskell - Did well. Carried, tackled and rucked hard - as a blindside should. We have people who can do this job better, however, IMO.
20. Simmonds - Also did well. Been fairly consistent in this championship, in a pack that is correctly balanced, he's a weapon (at 6 or 8, potentially).
21. Wigglesworth - Did OK. Shouldn't really be in the squad... but c'est la vie...
22. Joseph - Did OK. Not as deadly as he was when he first came in.
23. Brown - Did OK.
We're blessed at LH, truly. It's horses for courses between Mako, Joe and Ellis, with Hepburn, Obano and Boyce (amongst other youngsters) coming along nicely. Not much to worry about here, IMO.
Just a word on Hartley/Hooker... I completely understand Jones' reasoning behind his inclusion. But as an outsider, my observation would be that Dylan's a great leader in the context of a squad/team.... but not necessarily as an on field "general".
I really do not think this quality can justify his inclusion. Following that; LCD has to be brought through. He's too good to not be playing. George and Tommy Taylor are the two players I'd have behind LCD in the EPS.
On Dan Cole/TH... whilst we don't have quite the depth we have at LH, we have decent options. Sinckler is fantastic and Williams is pretty good (his ruck work is particularly attractive at this moment).
Second row is very tricky. I'll start off by stating that I'm fairly firmly of the opinion you need one TH lock and one LH lock. And also that except for very, very unusual cases, locks are locks, and flankers are flankers.
I'll divide up who I see as the TH's/LH's, in case it's unclear.
TH: Launchbury, Isiekwe, Kruis
LH: Lawes, Itoje
Primarily, this impacts scrummaging, but secondarily your TH is naturally going to be a better carrier in the tight, but perhaps sacrifices a little dynamism around the park.
I really like Launch, but one of his weaknesses is the lineout... he's not bad, but he's also not really shown any great ability there. Isiekwe, on the other hand, has... a lot.
I think that Isiekwe could become an understated world class player. He's naturally very strong, without needing to be so big that he becomes lumbering, and he's very technically proficient in pretty much all areas.
Lawes and Itoje comes down to who's in form at the time, and you can only pick one of them. Both of them in the 2nd row together is asking a lot of your front row, and we do not have the scrummagers required to facilitate that, IMO.
None of those players should be starting at 6, with the very possible exception of Kruis, although I don't see him being a better blindside that any of our available 6's so its a moot point.
Generally, I'd prefer Itoje, simply because I think he's a better scrummager and tight carrier than Courtney. But as I say, this is mostly a question of form.
I don't really think there's anyone outside of the EPS worth considering.
Blindside. As I've said in other threads, this position demands extreme physicality; It's probably the most singularly abrasive position in the game.
Fundamentally, guys with the physique of Lawes and Itoje are not suited to this position. Sure, they can cover it from the bench to provide more flexibility, but not as starters.
We need someone who will absolutely ******* lamp anything that is stupid enough to come within a few feet of them. The guys I'd consider for this role are Underhill, Ewers, Armand, Willis. (In that order).
The big benefit of Ewers, is the pressure he takes off the 8 as the primary ball carrier. Although all of those guys are decent tight carriers.
Openside. We've actually got decent depth here. For the sake of argument I'm going to include Robshaw here, even though he lies somewhere between the two positions. Who I think should be in the EPS: Robshaw, Kvesic, Curry's.
I'll preface this by saying that Robshaw is fantastic if the rest of the pack is balanced appropriately. And who I'd pick here would depend entirely on said balance.
Number 8. Billy. He's fantastic, and I hope he can stay fit in the future. I think he's a good enough ball carrier that you can sacrifice physicality elsewhere in the pack for other attributes, when he's playing. I don't necessarily think you have to do that though. A pack that also includes other physical players when he's playing will enhance his ball carrying impact. If we had other proper metre-eaters like Billy, I'd say it'd be ok to structure our gameplan that way, but we don't, so we shouldn't.
We need to distribute the physicality more evenly around the pack - which means Hughes, Simmonds and Mercer can all be more effective.
Scrum Half. I think most people are on the same page here. Youngs (as frustrating as he may be sometimes) was working very well for this team, as was Care as a finisher. Robson should have been training with the squad. Care doesn't seem to be as effective as a starter.
Fly Half. I'm happy with Ford, quite frankly... and so too with Smith as an apprentice.
Inside Centre. I'm also fairly happy with Farrell here. Loz and Slade as potential replacements for Owen as 2 5/8's, Manu and Te'o if we want/need to change style.
Outside Centre. Not unhappy, but not entirely sure who the best player here is, my gut says it's a JJ style player, but both he and Te'o have been effective and ineffective.
Wings. No major issues here. I do think Nowell should be a nailed on starter, however. Nowell, Watson, Daly, Earle, May are who I'd have. With Cokanasiga possibly coming in dependent on form, to offer a different option.
FB. I think Watson should continue, with Brown being a backup to him and Daly.
Clearly, balance is important, so there's a degree of leeway with all of what I've said. There are dozens of potential selections.
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Agree with pretty much all that TBH @ratsapprentice
Especially agree with Isiewke for me he has more upside than Itoje as a lock (who is still an excellent lock).
shame none of the Saints TH have shown any bit of form recently, don't see it changing with Boyd either. Brookes might crack on with wilson at Wasps though.
although wouldn't mind seeing 10. Ford, 12. Manu/te'o, 13 Daly one day.
Especially agree with Isiewke for me he has more upside than Itoje as a lock (who is still an excellent lock).
shame none of the Saints TH have shown any bit of form recently, don't see it changing with Boyd either. Brookes might crack on with wilson at Wasps though.
although wouldn't mind seeing 10. Ford, 12. Manu/te'o, 13 Daly one day.
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Meh... think he struggles with his conditioning tbh, he's a bloody powerful carrier, but he's normally not fit enough to do it more that a couple of times a game.
Our biggest TH hope is Hill, so let's hope he goes somewhere where he can be first choice and coached well.
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I agree with Hill, crazy how he is only just turned 23.
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Aye.
Didn't mention anything about coaching either, It's not a massive stretch to link our inconsistent attack coaching with our inconsistent attacking ability.
Didn't mention anything about coaching either, It's not a massive stretch to link our inconsistent attack coaching with our inconsistent attacking ability.
Couple of points in response to your post @ratsapprentice
No.8 We are now seeing two types of 8's we could use. Billy and Hughes who are powerful smashers and Simmonds and Mercer who are a bit more dynamic and use the space better. Billy at his best gets over the gain line and makes holes in the defence and is definitely better than Hughes. For me if you take Billy, you don't need Hughes. He will not change the dynamic of a game nor have a massive impact late on. Bench option should definitely be Simmonds with Mercer for the future and keeping an eye on his progress. Simmond has shown how he can rip through tired legs with his speed.
No.9 is just a worry plain and simple. I would agree with others that Wigs has actually played better than Care. We really need to blood at least one new scrum half in the summer because as Youngs' injury has highlighted it's too big a risk going into a world cup with 2 9's. Wigs is also only going to get older by next year.
10, 12, 13 for me is also a bit confusing. It feels like EJ wants Ford-Farrell axis but is not sure who is best at 13. Te'o with his smashing runs or JJ with his side step. Te'o means the wings will also get less ball, but JJ hasn't had the impact he has previously. Having said that the last 2 games England have struggled for quick ball so it's hard to judge it exactly.
No.8 We are now seeing two types of 8's we could use. Billy and Hughes who are powerful smashers and Simmonds and Mercer who are a bit more dynamic and use the space better. Billy at his best gets over the gain line and makes holes in the defence and is definitely better than Hughes. For me if you take Billy, you don't need Hughes. He will not change the dynamic of a game nor have a massive impact late on. Bench option should definitely be Simmonds with Mercer for the future and keeping an eye on his progress. Simmond has shown how he can rip through tired legs with his speed.
No.9 is just a worry plain and simple. I would agree with others that Wigs has actually played better than Care. We really need to blood at least one new scrum half in the summer because as Youngs' injury has highlighted it's too big a risk going into a world cup with 2 9's. Wigs is also only going to get older by next year.
10, 12, 13 for me is also a bit confusing. It feels like EJ wants Ford-Farrell axis but is not sure who is best at 13. Te'o with his smashing runs or JJ with his side step. Te'o means the wings will also get less ball, but JJ hasn't had the impact he has previously. Having said that the last 2 games England have struggled for quick ball so it's hard to judge it exactly.
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Who else is a JJ type player who might have an impact? Being a quins fan, Marchant comes to mind, but who else is there?
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Haven't seen a ton of him but Trinder seems to be in a similar mould.
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Brad Shields eligible for England, once he moves to Wasps, through his parents being both English. Shields at 6 would be a big improvement over Robshaw.
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He is, but he's also about as durable as a light bulb.
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Meh,
Everyone said the same about Symonds.
I say we wait and see how he plays up here before all getting our willies out and having a tug just because he's coming from Super Rugby.
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Shields is a good player; better than the likes of Symons and O'who?
He's much more likely to get international recognition than either of those two ever were, but there is literally 0 point in thinking about him until he's here and playing well.
He does have an absolutely fantastic beard, as an aside.
He's much more likely to get international recognition than either of those two ever were, but there is literally 0 point in thinking about him until he's here and playing well.
He does have an absolutely fantastic beard, as an aside.
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Yep agree not to get too excited about Shields until he gets here in September. Still not a lot of ball carrying 6s of his quality, whom England can ignore. Also he could be picked straight away without being resident here for 3 years.
The ABs called him up in November to replace Kaino only to rescind their offer as soon as they found out his true intentions of signing for Wasps and making himself available for England. I am sure a few Kiwi posters on here will also vouch of Shields' quality as well and lament his departure, despite their surfeit of back row options.
The ABs called him up in November to replace Kaino only to rescind their offer as soon as they found out his true intentions of signing for Wasps and making himself available for England. I am sure a few Kiwi posters on here will also vouch of Shields' quality as well and lament his departure, despite their surfeit of back row options.
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In attack, Trinder, Marchant and Daly come to mind.
In defence - nobody.
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